Subpar WS damage?

[nanatsu]

Last night I was partying in Caedarva Mire. Our targets were Imps and Jnun mostly. I noticed that my WS numbers weren't very good. I rarely got around 350 and my best was a flukey 400 or so. Most of the time I got around 250 dmg with Raging Fists. I was disappointed to say the least, being accustomed to consistently getting around 450 dmg with my WS.

So one party member leaves and another one appears, a war/nin. He starts hitting the thing and he starts pulling out 400-600 dmg Rampages off the bat. Occasionally he would go as high as 800 or so.

So I'm wondering what the problem is. I tried lots of things that night. Meat instead of sushi. Swapping out acc for str instead. Stacking both Focus and Berserk to make sure I landed all hits for max damage. But no matter what I did I couldn't even break 400, while this guy was consistently demolishing everything.

So I'm wondering, is Rampage just that good? I checked out the WS information and they don't seem that much different. They're both 5 hitters. Raging has damage modified by TP while Rampage has higher chance of crits. So I just don't know. I'd like to push myself higher against IT mobs, because my performance compared to his seemed downright dismal. But I don't know if it's just because of the WS or is it because of our gear? Is the damage 1 hand axes provide give some sort of advantage over h2h? Or do Imps and Jnun have some sort of resistance to blunt damage? Here's the gear set ups we had:

Me, Mithra Mnk:
Spartan Cesti/TM Hooks+2
Scorpion Harness
Ochido's Kote
Chivalrous Chain
Tiphia Sting
Woodsman's Ringx2/Puissiance Ringx2
Life Belt/Brown Belt
Republic Subligar
Federation Kyahan
Spike Earringsx2
Amemet Mantle

Galka War:
Acha d'Armas/Nadziak
Haubergeon
Thick Mufflers
Chivalrous Chain
Bomb Core
Merman's Earringx2 (I know at least one of them was merman's)
Some str rings of some sort
Life Belt
Thick Breeches
Fighter's Calligae
Amemet Mantle+1

Looking at the gear he didn't have that much of an atk advantage on me. He had about 57 atk from gear and I had about 51 when using Spartans. We both used sushi, yet he seemed to be pulling ahead of me in ws damage every time. And more often than not I got most if not all of my hits in on Raging. Maybe I did better with DoT, I don't know. I don't have a parser. But his WS dmg was twice and sometimes 3 times as much as mine. Even the BLU in our pt was matching me in WS damage with Vorpal Blade. I'd never had that problem before. Both me and the war were both level 68. What gives?

[Jei]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

I don't know how much attack helps with WS. But for Rampage, its has 30% strength modifier. So by switching STR gear alone, warrior can easily see some improvement on rampage already. However, the biggest factor of rampage are double attack and critical hit. I'm a taru. Normally, my Rampage damage varies between 500-800 depends on how many hits are landed. And if I get double attack or critical kick in, I can reach 1000+ pretty easy.

For monk, I haven't read much about raging fist. From the modifier, it has 20% str 20% dex, you might want to switch out some attacks for str/dex when you WS, might help, I don't really know.

I looked a lot into Asuran Fist however. From what I gathered, you are relying heavily on Critical hit to happen while you WS. Or else your damage will be pretty low. One reason to cap out critical merit asap.

[Kenki]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

350~400 is a bit low for Asura Fists but for RF it's about right. Maybe it's the acc thing since it's the most important factor in keeping your WS damage until you get merits. I'd keep high acc and wait for AF which will be slightly better (well maybe a lot better). However, if you damage is dropping not because of acc then you should look into atk instead of Str.

RF is kinda at the lower end of AF damage usually but it varies a lot. AF relies a lot on acc. You'll miss a many hits if you don't have acc boost or fighting IT+. Even with lots of boost I remember my AF caps at around 900~1100 - I can't get any higher unless it's bones or I'm using /War sub. On War/Nin I can pull 1000+ not as hard... really... even with similar atk.

The difference between RP and RF is that RP is chance to land critical hits 5 times (+1 from off hand) depending on TP while RF is well... mod for Dmg by TP for 5 hits. You'll do better with AF.

Jnun are 'flesh' mobs, undead too... a bit slimy so yes they are slightly resistance to blunt damage. My dmg also dropped whenever I fight these guys. I think it's 25% resist (eg only 75% total damage)?

On personal experience with both AF and RP... I'll say if AF is 9 then RF will be 7 and RP is 10. They are close but RP can potentionally get more damage out. 400~600 Rampage is about right - 800+ is high which means he must have DA or hits all criticals.

[tdh]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon here. For the most part, Rampage is going to out do Raging Fists. Raging Fists is one of the best WS there is until Rampage comes along, and 300~400dmg from Raging Fists is a pretty good mark to shoot for until you have Asurian Fists.

Now, if you already had a Lv.75 job, and cap'd out your Crit Hits, you could probably push those Raging Fists numbers, but with out them seems like you're doing decently well, and just try to keep your DPS up.

Rampage is just an awesome WS. With the correct Merits, I've seen WARs keep their Rampage numbers in the 1.2k+ consistantly. (Max Crit Merits, and Double Attack Merits, and STR doesn't hurt either.) At Lv.75 this will give MNKs and Asurian Fists a run for their money.

Now if you're Raging Fists were in the 150~250 range, or you were flat out whiffing all hits, then I'd say you have something serious to worry about, but you appear to be on the right track.

[Tipsy]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

Those Jnun (undead meat) things resist h2h melee weapens that don't have a blade. I know it sounds absurd, but I've checked it true.

At 75 I do 90-100 a fist on Jnun, and 1.1k WS. Then on Spongillas and Imps I hit for as high as 150-160 a fist, 200+ a kick. Imps and Flies are T-VT, Jnun are all T. I know this isn't really a study, but from what I've seen, it's turns out to be true.

My setup is:

Head: Turban for TPing, Shr. Znr. Kabuto for WS
Body: K.osode
Hands: Melee gaunlets
Legs: shura haidate
feet: dune boots
ring1: flame ring
rin2: flame ring
Mantle: amemit+1
belt: brown belt
neck: chiv
earring1: merman
earrin2: merman
wpn: destroyers
ammo: tipha

h2h lv8 and crit lv.4 strlv3

I hope that helps. but i know MNK certainly isn't subpar on WS. also, at your lvl I was using Dragon Kick > raging fist.

[eva00r]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

If you want big numbers, go for MNK/THF then SATA Dragon Kick. It could reach 1.1-1.2k easily.

Well, MNK is DoTer ... not the big number - big trouble anyway.

[nanatsu]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

If you want big numbers, go for MNK/THF then SATA Dragon Kick. It could reach 1.1-1.2k easily.
Well, MNK is DoTer ... not the big number - big trouble anyway.

Well I wasn't worried about big numbers more than keeping up with those at my level. It's not like the war was war/thf and I was experiencing number envy. I just want to make sure I'm maximizing my potential as a mnk and doing the best I can do. I'm accustomed to keeping up with war/nin so when I didn't, I assumed I was slacking off somewhere I didn't know about.

For me, Raging Fist has consistently edged out Dragon Kick in dmg if only by a bit. Every now and then I get a war who wants me to open Light for him, but more often than not we're just spamming WS. When that happens I alternate between Dragon Kick and Raging Fists to see which one is doing better. Usually I end up sticking with Raging Fists.

[bside]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

I looked a lot into Asuran Fist however. From what I gathered, you are relying heavily on Critical hit to happen while you WS. Or else your damage will be pretty low. One reason to cap out critical merit asap.

According to Studio Gobli, crit doesn't kick into any WS' unless their TP modifier is chance of critical hit (except when used in conjunction w/ SA and Mighty Strike). In other words, Asuran Fists won't get any critical hits on any of 8 hits, whereas Rampage has a chance of getting crit on all hits.

For the record, whether people here believe this or not is entirely up to each of you. But I as a one trust the results Studio Gobli comes up w/.

[Ninja Kitten]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

So I'm wondering, is Rampage just that good?

Rampage is a good, though overrated, WS (I say overrated because the erratic-ness of the damage makes it far less effective than people act like it is).

There's several reasons why you're seeing it out-do Raging Fists.

First off, it's got an extra hit automatically. It's 6 hits with Dual Weild, while Raging Fists is only 5.

Second, he's a warrior and wearing the AF Boots. As monk/war, you'll have a 10% chance to double attack. As war with AF boots, he's got about a 12% chance to double attack. Not a huge difference, but it is a factor.

Third, crits. I don't know if it's true that any WS that doesn't have "Crit Chance based on TP" can't WS. It seems unlikely, but I don't really know.

What I do know, though, is that Rampage's hits have a much higher chance to hit, even at 100% tp, than even normal monk hits with Destroyers, though it's still entirely possible and somewhat common pre-75 to land Rampages with very few crits. This is why rampage is so erratic 55-70+. Crit merits help to regulate it more.

My Rampages tend to vary between 600 and 1.3k at lv75 with a bard (the 1.3k being rarest). That's with all 6-8 (double attack) hits landing and the large variance is almost entirely becuase of crits or lack thereof.

I don't know all the mathematical formulas, but I do know from observation (and seen it confirmed with the formulas) that crits jump further from your regular damage on higher def (IT+) mobs, also, which is part of what helps rampage do so well. I noticed this originally on crabs, since their def bonus move can drop a Gaxe's damage 0 per hit with regular hits, yet a crit can still do 100-150 damage (don't take the crit damage numbers as absolutely exact, it's been a long time since I fought crabs on war with gaxe, I just know that there was a much large dif 'tween a crit and normal hit with their def bonus up than without the def bonus up).

Also something to keep in mind: Jnun are weak to slashing. Flies and Imps are weak to piercing. I don't know if any of them have resistances, but a war is gonna have an advantage on Jnun and if they are resistant to blunt as well, then it's gonna make a very noticable difference.

[eva00r]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

As far as I see, there are a period in which MNK is inferior than WAR. You're in that period. Raging Fist is well, lesser damage than Rampage. However, within 3-4 levels, you will get Ashuran Fist.

That's normal ... It's like being a BRD when lv 42-54 .. when you see RDM can Refresh but you have only Ballad I.

[Ninja Kitten]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

As far as I see, there are a period in which MNK is inferior than WAR. You're in that period. Raging Fist is well, lesser damage than Rampage. However, within 3-4 levels, you will get Ashuran Fist.
That's normal ... It's like being a BRD when lv 42-54 .. when you see RDM can Refresh but you have only Ballad I.

Monk is always a little behind WAR in WS damage. Raging Fists is a little weaker, at least in the long run, than SASturmwind, partially because it's less consistant.

However, what monk maintains over WAR is non-WS DoT. In my experience, to a level that the difference in WS damage doesn't keep the monk from keeping up entirely with the WAR and often even lets them surpass the WAR.

The base DMG for monk h2h weaponry manages to stay about equal to (sometimes a little ahead of) WAR/NIN axe damage and delay is lower already by lv50 when war/nin actually becomes viable, not even counting the haste from brown belt.

Remember, war/nin is just a mnk wannabe and mnk wins in the end.

[tdh]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

According to Studio Gobli, crit doesn't kick into any WS' unless their TP modifier is chance of critical hit (except when used in conjunction w/ SA and Mighty Strike). In other words, Asuran Fists won't get any critical hits on any of 8 hits, whereas Rampage has a chance of getting crit on all hits.

For the record, whether people here believe this or not is entirely up to each of you. But I as a one trust the results Studio Gobli comes up w/.

This is the first I've heard of this, and my first thought is to think this can't be. I've landed a 1579 Souleater Guillotine at Lv.60. That's nearly 400dmg each hit, and I don't believe Double Attack fired off during that one. (Was a couple of months ago. I've broken into 1500 3 other times, one of which I know for sure DA proc'd. 19%TP return means 2 DAs and 100% Acc.) So one of those had to be a critical hit... doesn't it?

[nanatsu]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

Those Jnun (undead meat) things resist h2h melee weapens that don't have a blade. I know it sounds absurd, but I've checked it true.

I suppose I can give a bladed h2h a try, although I was under the impression that all mnk weapons besides Vampiric Claws where blunt anyway no matter what they looked like.

Someone pointed out that Jnun were weak to slashing and that explains a lot. I was at a double disadvantage with having to use blunt weapons, but it still bugs me and I feel like I should be able to do something more regardless of weapon weaknesses and whatever. Oh well.

[bside]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

This is the first I've heard of this, and my first thought is to think this can't be. I've landed a 1579 Souleater Guillotine at Lv.60. That's nearly 400dmg each hit, and I don't believe Double Attack fired off during that one. (Was a couple of months ago. I've broken into 1500 3 other times, one of which I know for sure DA proc'd. 19%TP return means 2 DAs and 100% Acc.) So one of those had to be a critical hit... doesn't it?

Just as a supplemental information;

When calculating WS damages, max PDIF you can get on non-crit is 2.4, and min on critical is 2.6. Thus, the mob your fighting, your gears, whether you had songs or not, and many other factors affect the output so it could have critical-like damage, but never the same under the exact same condition.

Other than that, like I said, whether you believe that or not is up to you.

[tdh]

Re: Subpar WS damage?

I wish there was a way for us to know if Crits can fire off in non-critical WS. I Merit'd like crazy so I could get to Lv.3 Crits by the time I learned Guillotine. I wanted to have any chance I could to up my Guillotine numbers, and now I'll just have to wait until my WAR can Rampage to finally take advantage of all that work. /sigh