MNK expensive item question

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

After selling some RDM items i find myself having finally some decent gil. and i need some opinions...

Hand Slot= i dont really want the Crosscounters..they dont look good to me. The delay on spartans look too high, so i was thinking TM hooks+2. after that, shivas claws and destroyers? ill cross that bridge when i get to it.

Body Slot= i was planning on buying a scorp harness, but a 75 MNK told me that the 5 acc over AF isnt that worth it. i have a woodsman ring, plan on getting a tipha sting, and i eat sole sushi. this slot confuses me. any advice for here?

Waist Slot= i have a brown belt and a Life belt. i plan on swapping them via macros, should i? or just use the life belt when im having trouble?

Feet Slot= another thing im having diffiulty with. I have Fumas currently. I dont plan on buying kung fu shoes cause i hear the dmg isnt that much substantial and i would be better off with haste. now what about Wu longs shoes (think thats how you spell it) and dune shoes....i hear that wu longs+1 is the same as dunes. How much are wu longs+1 and is the dune shoes a bitch to get?

thank you for the help ^^ detailed advice would be a plus

[Akai]

Re: MNK expensive item question

well, first off, CC and Spartans are the best h2h in the game for that lvl, but ive never used them, so i donno, i just hear therye good
also, the +5 acc does help, but its not necessary, also, id buy another woods/sniper instead of a tiphia sting, the sting is around the same price on my server for a snipers, and has more acc.
usually, you'd use life belt, cause it gets harder to hit stuff...but depending on the situation, use Brownbelt, and you can always macro it in for WS and such
IMO, id just wait for dune boots, but if you have the gil, go ahead and buy wulongs/kung fu shoes. i dont know how much kick attacks they add, but theyre probably better than +3% haste imo :x also, i think dune boots are a pain to get.

hope this helps^^

[Dryhus]

Re: MNK expensive item question

Cross Counters are definitely good, especially with that base damage at 50. I believe TMH+2 and Spartan's parse slightly below CC, with the gap narrowing as you increase in levels and your natural H2H base damage rises.

In party play, this is what I'm concerned with: Temple Cycles, Acc +5, 0 gil...Scorpion Harness, Acc +10, 10 million gil (or whatever the price is on your server). I'm not always going to go for price over performance, or I'd be using Beat Cesti. But considering you're going to be getting the Cyclas anyway for Chakra, save all that gil and get something else that will have a higher impact on your damage. If you have all the other toys and still have the gil, then consider getting it.

Pre-sushi, MNKs would macro Focus and Brown Belt together and Berserk and Life Belt together. In my mind, if you're already wearing 2xSniper's/Woodsman's, Jujitsu Gi/Temple Cyclas/Scorpion Harness, and even if you're not wearing a Super Ribbon and Tiphia Sting, but you're eating sushi....then that's plenty Acc to let you enjoy Brown Belt. If you want to eat meat, then you pretty much have to use Life Belt. At 50, you're giving up about +25 Acc by not eating sushi, so I feel a Sushi+Brown Belt build would outparse a Meat+Life Belt build unless you're Acc whoring with SH, PCC/PCA, Super Ribbon, Tiphia Sting, 2xSniper's/Woodsman's, etc.

I don't think Fumas are ever worth it for MNK. By the time the 3% Haste would give you an extra hit, the mob is dead and the fight is over, and you're starting over again the next battle. I like Kung Fu shoes because I like to do strong kicks. However, Federation Kyahan supposedly outparse them until Kick Attacks II at 71, and by then you can have Dune Boots, which are far and away better than all the alternatives.

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

Re: MNK expensive item question

i do hear from the mnk that the fumas are godly. they give you 3% haste when stacked with the brown belt thats 11% then with the turband thats another 5% i think....ughhh so many good items for MNK im gonna be farming well into '07 lol

[Dryhus]

Re: MNK expensive item question

i do hear from the mnk that the fumas are godly. they give you 3% haste when stacked with the brown belt thats 11% then with the turband thats another 5% i think....ughhh so many good items for MNK im gonna be farming well into '07 lol

Take a look at some numbers for me.

Sample build: Martial Arts IV (340 delay) and TMH+2 (+71 delay) for a total of 411 delay. Fuma Kyahan's 3% Haste reduces the delay to 399.

You would not get an extra attack round until (411-399)x >= 399, where x is the number of attack rounds. Simplify this to 12x >= 399, and again to x >= 33.25. Since you cannot make fractional attack rounds, you'd get your extra attack round when x > 33, or x = 34.

You'd finally get your extra attack after 34 rounds. That is, you'd make 35 attack rounds in the same amount of time someone wearing another foot gear would make 34 attack rounds. With 399 delay, this comes 3 minutes, 46 seconds into the fight. When the fight ends, you disengage, auto-attack stops, and you start over with the next mob. When was the last time you had a fight last 3 minutes, 45 seconds?

With Kick Attacks I at 51, you'll be kicking 5% of the time and doing half of 1 punch in damage, so that's like an extra 1.25% increase in damage and TP gain rate. Kung Fu shoes double that damage, so it's a 2.5% increase in damage and a 1.25% increase in TP gain.

In a battle that would last an extended period of time, Fuma Kyahans would win out with 3% increase in damage and TP gain. The catch, of course, is that only HNMs are going to last an extended period of time, and on most HNMs we're not wanted for H2H. Of course, even hypothetically Federation Kyahan may trump Fumas with their Attack +4 applied to every single punch, kick, and WS.

At 71 with Kick Attacks II, the whole issue becomes moot because MNKs kick 10% of the time. And with either Wulong Shoes +1 or Dune Boots, those kicks every 10 rounds really count.

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

Re: MNK expensive item question

i know by itself 3% haste is nothing to freak over. what i was implying is that until dunes become accessable, i believe that the fumas, Brown belt, and the Turban would be very nice together.

fumas is 3% brown belt is 8% and i believe a turban is 5%(correct me if im wrong) thats 16% haste with altogether is nothing to scoff at. 3% isnt too useful, but it does help pre-70's for stacking up. i believe thats what the 75 MNK was trying to tell me. what do you think on that?

[Dryhus]

Re: MNK expensive item question

i know by itself 3% haste is nothing to freak over. what i was implying is that until dunes become accessable, i believe that the fumas, Brown belt, and the Turban would be very nice together.

fumas is 3% brown belt is 8% and i believe a turban is 5%(correct me if im wrong) thats 16% haste with altogether is nothing to scoff at. 3% isnt too useful, but it does help pre-70's for stacking up. i believe thats what the 75 MNK was trying to tell me. what do you think on that?

I suppose Haste does have appreciating returns. I hadn't mentioned other Haste pieces because Brown Belt and Turban aren't competing for a slot with Kung Fu/Wulong/Dune, but if you want to look at it that way, I can break it down further below. Additionally, Dune Boots are available earlier (70) than Walahra Turban (75).

I'll compare the following:
-Martial Arts VI (300 delay) + TMH+2 (+71 delay) + Brown Belt (8% Haste) + Turban (5% Haste) = 318 delay
-Martial Arts VI (300 delay) + TMH+2 (+71 delay) + Brown Belt (8% Haste) + Turban (5% Haste) + Fuma Kyahan (3% Haste) = 296 delay

(318-296)x >= 296
22x >= 296
x >= 13.5
x = 14

This would yield an extra round of attacks 1minute 9 seconds into the fight. This is much more reasonable. It's also interesting to note that a) Fuma Kyahans would result in an extra two normal-strength punches every 15 rounds. Dune Boots would result in a double-strength kick every 10 rounds. Dune Boots and Melee Hose, however, would result in a double-strength kick every 6 or 7 rounds.

Anyone feel free to correct my math. I'm re-evaluating my foot gear at high levels, myself. Once Walahra Turban and Martial Arts VI come into play at 75, it seems to be a different game. Prior to that and again with AF2 legs, Kick Attack gear seems to work best.

[Empedocles]

Re: MNK expensive item question

Just a small side thing, on the issue of the +haste on Fuma's.

I'm currently looking at camping them, and it seems you make a strong case in the fisticuffs section. But I'm wondering about all the JA's sped up as the defining point of making a haste-build MNK (I'm subbing DRG so I get the +5% from the earring). Can you show math such as you have done concerning the timers on the JA's? Ypur explainations are nice and readable without all the e's and f's and things others seem to use because they are discussing with other mathmeticians...

[Kirsteena]

Re: MNK expensive item question

JAs are never affected by haste. They are a fixed recast time.

[nanatsu]

Re: MNK expensive item question

Before you decide higher delay h2h weapons should be avoided, keep in mind that a h2h weapon that's 66 delay is not twice as fast as one that's 113 delay. It's just added on to your natural h2h delay so you're really only getting 66 less delay. In the long run, that's really not that much. I also believe that mnk favors higher dmg weapons to help punch through the defense of high def mobs.

[Tirrock]

Re: MNK expensive item question

Feet:
Federation Kyahan to level 70 or 71. +4 attack will do more to your damage if you eat sushi than fumas or kung fu/wu long shoes. Dune boots aren't even too good until 71 when MNK kick 5% more frequently due to an upgrade in their job trait.

The kick boots increase damage on kicks, not frequency of kicks. I believe the kung fu shoes make your kicks equvilant to how hard you'd punch with a +10 damage weapon on. Wu long are +20 (+25 on HQ) to my understanding. And dune boots are +30, again to my understanding.

Since you only kick 5% of the time until 71, kung fu boots simply don't do enough damage to support buying them. It's a bit more debatable with wu long shoes. I personally avoided them because of their cost for little gain.

I don't follow the logic of fumas either. So you have brown belt (8% haste) and fumas, bringing you up to 11% haste. The fumas are still 3% haste, regardless of if you wear brown belt or not. They'll give you an extra attack round so infrequently that you'll likely never see it.

Weapons:
TM hooks +2/Spartan/Crosscounter can last you until level 72, easily. Then there's wagh punchythings. They have a hidden latent of +ATK (and possibly accuracy) while under 100% TP, as well as a higher base damage while under 100% TP. WS get the benefits of the increased damage too.

Shiva's claws were pretty good back when accuracy gear was hard to come by and sushi wasn't around. Since accuracy gear isn't too hard to come by, you'd get a LOT more benefit from using something other than shiva's claws. They're like 1/6th of a second faster than TM hooks +2, with much lower damage.

At 73, destroyers (with latent off) are the best things around. Low delay, high base damage, +6% crit hit rate is very difficult to top.

Belt:
Easy enough. Brown belt and life belt will last you up to and including level 75. You'll likely want to use brown belt most of the time. Unless your group overcamps way too much (or you fight a THF type monster) you won't need the life belt very often.

Body:
Cost VS effect. That's pretty important in choosing all equipment for all jobs, but MNK body slot is a prime example of this.

5ACC - 0 gil
10ACC - 4.5m (my server's approximate price for scorpion harness, it dropped a lot these last couple months)

You get 5 more accuracy for 4.5m gil. You can buy chivalrous chain on my server for about 1.2m-2m, which has the same amount of accuracy, and even has the bonuses of 3 STR and 1 Store TP. You can buy spectacles for 2.5m (again, my server price) for 7 accuracy, getting more accuracy for your money than scorpion harness. Snipers and Woodsman's are around 2m each.

Going all out on accuracy gear with MNK isn't too necessary unless you want to eat meat while exping your way up to the 70's, when people tend to exp on T-VT instead of IT.

[Dryhus]

Re: MNK expensive item question

The kick boots increase damage on kicks, not frequency of kicks. I believe the kung fu shoes make your kicks equvilant to how hard you'd punch with a +10 damage weapon on. Wu long are +20 (+25 on HQ) to my understanding. And dune boots are +30, again to my understanding.

The way I've seen it explained, normal kick attacks do the same damage as a single bare-handed punch at that level, meaning hand-to-hand skill plays a very large part.

According to MysteryTour:
Kung Fu Shoes do the same damage as a single punch with a D+25 weapon.
Wulong Shoes do the same damage as a single punch with a D+27 weapon.
Wulong Shoes +1 do the same damage as a single punch with a D+30 weapon.
Dune Boots do the same damage as a single punch with a D+30 weapon.

[Dryhus]

Re: MNK expensive item question

I was looking at the above calculations and thought I'd use them to compare Spartan's Cesti and TMH+2.

With either Martial Arts IV (lv46, 340 base delay) or V (lv61, 320 base delay) and Brown Belt, you could make 11 attack rounds with TMH+2 in the same amount of time you could make 10 attack rounds with Spartan's. The extra attack from the TMH+2 comes 1m3s seconds into the battle, which means that in all parties except crazy TP burn parties (which generally aren't formed at that level) you will see that extra attack, and most likely only that extra attack. The second extra attack would come 2m6s into the battle, which hopefully would not be the longevity of an XP mob.

The question remains, which is superior?
*D+16, Atk +10 applied to 11 attacks
*D+20, Acc +2 applied to 10 attacks

Spartan's Cesti is the clear winner on weapon skills, where base damage is king and delay doesn't count for anything except TP return. It's tough to tell which weapon wins on DoT without parsing them. My guess is that they would be almost even, perhaps with Spartan's edging them out because of the importance of base damage. However, with Spartan's being the clear WS winner, it seems they take home the blue ribbon for net damage.

NOTE: with Martial Arts VI (lv75, 300 base delay), TMH+2 makes 10 attacks in the time Spartan's makes 9. However, by that time you have Wagh's and, moreover, Destroyers, so the whole issue is irrelevant.

[Empedocles]

Re: MNK expensive item question

JAs are never affected by haste. They are a fixed recast time.

Sorry for flogging a dead horse but I'd like this closed once and for all, for me.

I know the ja's are fixed (such as Provoke has a 30 timer) but I thought that haste can effect the timer running (so it ticks slightly faster).

The reason I think this, is that I heard NIN's can get Utsu:Ichi down to 21 seconds 'real time' via haste spell/gear and Ninjutsu Skill. Is this correct or were they just talking out of their ass?

[Tirrock]

Re: MNK expensive item question

Utsusemi:Ichi can be shortened by haste. It is a spell, not a job ability.