Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Well, from what i'm getting of your explination there really isn't anything to do MNK wise from the WHM perspective. You're right, I do have a fairly good handle on tanking in general (as should any WHM this level) and what you described is more or less the same as a PLD tank. with the exception of fact that you cannot self-cure.

In fact, a Regen/Cure3/Haste cycle with the ocassional Cure4 near the end of the battle when hate is well established is exactly what I would expect of a MNK tank. But that is where I fail to see the benifit of MNK.

Even if a MNK can hold hate better than PLD, that much hate isn't needed. Just a good MNK can hold hate from anything, so can a good WAR, a good NIN, or a Good PLD. As long as the mob stays on you, the rest is just icing on the cake. The extra hate is just that - extra?

So if the extra hate is just extra icing on the cake, I have to look at some other benifit because I don't actually gain anything by picking a MNK. I suppose the damage output would be a start, but I can't really take that into consideration without a parser (which I don't have) so I can't compare PLD/NIN/MNK damage output any better then you. I won't say that negates the arugement (since we all know that as a general rule MNK have enourmous damage output), but It can't be considered for gospel here either.

But that does leave one severe disadvantage that I can't see how it can be overcome. With a MNK tank, I would need to at least use a Cure3/Regen/Haste cycle, with the ocassional Cure4. WHich is fine, since you can hold hate through a Cure IV. But I can do the same with a PLD or a NIN and a Cure2/Regen/Haste cycle, and the ocassional Cure III.

Simply put, when it comes down to it MNK does not have anywhere near the damage mitigation of PLD and NIN (and in my world, damage mitigation = MP conservation for me). Granted, I don't know MNK well, so I don't know thier DEF, or thier gear at various levels.

I guess at this point it comes down to one question. Does a MNK tank kill the mob fast enough more damage is mitigated than is additonally taken? Only a parser can tell, but I find it really, really hard to believe (outside a bones party).

As for the "situational" tanking, IMO, all tanking is situational. Nin do better against hard hitting, slow mobs. PLD do better against light hitting fast mobs. MNK own bones.

[Jinghles]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

seven ...

In fact, a Regen/Cure3/Haste cycle with the ocassional Cure4 near the end of the battle when hate is well established is exactly what I would expect of a MNK tank. But that is where I fail to see the benifit of MNK.

are the scenarios you outlined in your last post from actual experiences partying with mnk tanks .. seven?

is this how you've been curing your mnk tanks?


are you waiting for the mnk to get down in HP to be able to cast a cure4 ... or do you cast lower cures just to keep mnk tank HP above one~shot range

are you saying you have to cast a cure4 to keep the mnk in the desired HP range?

you do understand that casting lower lvl cures more frequently, will reduce the chance for you to draw hate .. right?

in your pt's with a mnk tank ... what other spells do you cast other than cures?

in your pt's with nin tanks or pld tanks .. what other spells do you cast other than cures?


the good whm's that i've pt-ed with when i mnk tank have more than enough MP to keep me from being one shottted and have enough MP to continue chains in relation to the rest of the pt ...


in my experience, every whm that i have pt~ed did not have expereience curing a mnk tank ... i ask for cureI and cureII

So if the extra hate is just extra icing on the cake, I have to look at some other benifit because I don't actually gain anything by picking a MNK

??? ... so your question to me is ... what reason would you choose a good tank over another good tank? ... uhm .... if it was me

* i'd choose the good tank that i have pt~ed with

* if there are multiple tanks that i've had fun pting with, i'd choose the one that i had more fun with


unless i'm missing it, am i correct that everyone that has responded to this thread are not mnk tanks?

in most forums, i am immediately put on the defense when i post threads on mnk tanking

this thread is kinda sorta not developing in the way i had hoped ...


i am tired .. and i do not know how much patience i have left ... although it may seem that my patience is inexhaustable ... i am indeed human


i've scoured many forums for mnk tanking discussion ... looking for discussion on mnk tanking from actual mnk tanks ... it seems to me that mnk tanks are on the verge of extinction

i refuse to believe i am unique ... if i can tank as a mnk ... i know there are other mnk tanks

i am looking for discussion from mnks that tank their entire career ... like a pld or most nin's



jingy

[neighbortaru]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

i am not intentionally being condescending or boastful in any of my posts, but many people feel that i am because they want to believe i am

if someone asks me if i can tank as a mnk, and i answer "yes, i can" ... am i being boastful?

I'm sorry to harp you on this, but yes I believe you are. Kenki brought up specific problems with monk tanking yet you reply with nothing other than a simple "i've overcome all that" response. There was no description of how or what you did to overcome those problems. This sounds like a boast.

if by me initiating this discussion by sharing my experiences is considered boastful? ... then anyone who posts 'new discoveries' in the game are being being boastful ... i don't believe this is so


my own journey tanking to 50 basically two times is a testiment to myself that i am indeed able to tank as a mnk to lvl 50

i understand that most people are skeptical and demand proof ... i am not trying to convert you ... if in the course of what i hope are good discussions in this thread you are converted .. then so be it

Actually, your experiences, and posts, to date are very ambigious. You have not proved any details nor descriptions. The other posters are providing more information than you and they haven't even claimed to have sucessfully tanked as a monk.

... two parties that i main tanked, sticks out in my mind

... one was in CN secret room ... the place was overcamped ... but my puller was superb ... mob kills rarely took longer than 2x vokes ...

... the other pt that was noteable was in basement garliage ... seekers were very limited but i was able to gather 4x jp ... i tanked bats and beetles in the basement for chains

since i don't parse, i'd guess that both pickup pts i'd say were 4k+/hr range

Now this is a bit more like it though it is still lacking in detail. For example, what were your equips? what was the party setup? what was the strategy you used to address points 1 and 2 of Kenki's post? equipment swaps? food? etc.

perhaps i didn't chose the best title for this thread ... i am looking to discuss mnk tanking with mnk tanks ... NOT to prove to people that i can tank

discussing mnk tanking if you don't tank, does not bring insight

discussing guard with mnks that don't lvl guard, does not bring insight

etc ...

if you are going to bring your opinions into this thread, please at least have some specific personal experience with the topic

Perhaps your thread title is a bit inappropriate, but as a thread on the sucessful experiences of monk tanking, I, as a reader (not active participant), would reasonably expect to see actual detailed descriptions of your experiences. I do not see you posting that as of yet so forgive me if I feel that this has been nothing but boasts so far.

[Kenki]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

you do understand that casting lower lvl cures more frequently, will reduce the chance for you to draw hate .. right?

in my experience, every whm that i have pt~ed did not have experience curing a mnk tank ... i ask for cureI and cureII

This is not really true when you compare Cure V and Cure IV. Cure V heals more but generates less hate. Aside from that, time is a very important factor in curing. More than often, you will find that using Cure II is not effective enough to keep your tank alive and you can rest. There is a small (about 4~6sec) delay between using a single cure, most whm who want to use low level cures will alternate between their cures (Cure/CureII or CureII/CureIII..etc). But using Cure III will potentially pull hate if your tank is not a very good tank (at lv50~60). Using 3 Cure II will take more time than using 1 Cure IV (capped HP heal). The extra time you manage to get can be used for something else for the Whm (resting, healing someone else, haste, erase..etc).

I did not know the importance of time saving and mp conservation for a whm until I actually have to manage it with a 5 melee PT and no one to refresh. A good tank will take very little damage, this will allow me (as a whm) to extent my rest or take some rests during battle to gain back a few MP. Combine that with cutting time using different combination of cures and regens will increase the rest time. On the other hand, for a tank that take a lot of damage (assuming hate keeping is not a problem) I will find myself standing and prepare to cure as well as casting 2~3 different cures. If the tank has a chance of being one-shotted then standing around is required, thus MP conservation will take higher risk. In other words, using only Cure I and Cure II means that the whm will have to cut into the resting time, time to haste other melees as well as curing status effects.

unless i'm missing it, am i correct that everyone that has responded to this thread are not mnk tanks?

This can be said that a judge does not have to be a criminal to judge the criminals effectively. Or a writer/journalist does not have to know as much as a doctor to write an article about human health. Or a movie critic does not have to be a director to give out excellent critics for the movie he watched. In fact, I believe that an outside person who is very perceptive and at least have some experience to related fields will be a better observer than the ones inside.

Let's face it, tanking and meleeing will take you to the front line. This means you won't be able to see and read all the moves of your members. As you have said before, you forget about your HP after a while, this means you also forget about having a healer there trying to conserve MP and keep you alive. If you have been a back up tank for a ninja tank, trying to count his shadows and his timing along with the monster's attack so you can provoke right before he gets interrupted or one-shotted is extremely hard, even if you're at the front line and close to him. Being a melee and a tank at the front line will keep you from looking around at other members. So it's hard to know if you're a good tank or not by just looking at how you keep hate. Remember that, a decent tank will manage to get all the enmity he can get while a good tank will manipulate it.

In fact, the one to judge if a tank is good or not is not the tank but rather the thf or another power house DD or the healer. So, if you want to say that you are good at tanking then all we can do is to ask for other means to measure your 'greatness'. Since you can't really count your exp/hr it's hard for us to know if it's a 'good' or a 'bad' PT you are having. We then asked for your equipments, tactics, moves as well as other observations. Still, you have yet to provide adequate information, most of which are very narrow-viewed to a tank's perspective (or rather a tank that only worries about keep hate). The way you described your experience (or whatever you can call it) is more like a one-man 'good-time' show, I hardly see objective views or views from other people in your PT.

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Also, the definition of a 'good' PT or a 'bad' PT is difficult to explain but rather you can only experience it to actually compare it. The way I see it, a 'good' PT means perfect harmonization between all members of the party, good exp flow (at least 5~8k per hour), minimal stress on members and more importantly having a good time. Also, 'good' PT can mean a great experience, you learn new things and operate at another level than what you normally do - this has to apply to all members.

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@sevenpointflaw

I'm not sure what level you are looking at Mnk tank but if you are looking at lv70+ then I can provide you some info. This is the Mnk forum but the advice is for whm... rather so take it as an off-rail portion of the post.

Before lv70, mnk tanking is similar to war/mnk tanking. This means you will need another healer to share you hate. Keeping hate depending on the Thf and the tank. A mnk will take damage close to that of a war/mnk (after lv70 or so, a mnk can get as much as 400~500+ def with food/protect). Hate holding will be a big issue, not from the healer's view but from the DD view. Most melees would be extremely powerful at lv50, keeping hate as a pure tank is hard when you have no flash...etc. In a general case where PT is a random pick up one (no big co-ordinations between members), you can view a decent mnk tank as a mediocre tank, not a decent tank. A good mnk tank (pure defence) will be close to that of an expected Pld tank. However, if the mnk goes ballistic on VTs then you can expect a very very good mnk/war with extremely good gear will to hold hate while you cure him. Still, a thf is pretty much required in both cases. Hate management and MP conservation becomes critical compare to normal Pld/Nin tank.

After lv73 or so, tanking becomes less important. This is as close to the levels when hate-switching is common (lv30 or less). For a pure Mnk party or War PT, damage output is more important than defence, most mnk will ignore his defence and go for pure damage. This means healing with Regens will be come less significant as healing with large cures. The following points are what I observed during a PT which I tank along with other monks, wars and nins (not really but in a PT where hate is changing switching around like a tornado it's hard to tell who's tanking); a bone PT or burn-type PT.

*Healers don't rest often but rather rely on Refresh + Ballad + equipments; Resting still occur but since the camp is not fixed and battles only last for 20~40sec, only 10~20sec rest happened. This combine with non-stop attacks means you have no rest in between battles.

*For PT with utsusemi users, rests occur more frequently during battles.

*Large cures or Curagas are used more than smaller cures and regen. Hate become a very small factor after 15sec into the battle. So curing should be safe most of the time (provide adequate -emnity equipments).

*MP conservation comes from the use of efficient cures rather than rests and regen. This means Cure IV/V and Curagas are often used. I believe that someone has proven Cure V at max merit can be the most efficient MP-to-HP ratio while Cure II will come close. Cure IV seems to be the least effective. (not sure about this, you might want to ask a real whm lol)

*Haste become an important factor, usually haste will be applied to the one that tank AND/OR the one who is the weakness in damage. If there is none then it should be applied to the one who can cast Utsusemi. OR if there is no priority, it means that you can haste anyone or no one.

*Bones PT fighting Ghosts will need the Whm to cast Banish III to lower damage resistance.

[Jinghles]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

^^ kenki

as i've said tanking to 50mnk .. cureI and cureII is what i prefer during xp ... cure III and cure IV have been so rarely cast on me when i tank in my experience

what this means is that cure III and cure IV are not necessary for the way i mnk tank

when i say i 'forget' about looking at my HP ... i do not mean i lose track of the 'healing the tank dynamic' ... i mean that in the pt's where i have good healers the issue of having enough MP to heal me as the tank becomes a non-issue ... my healers are not struggling, the curing process is totally controlled

the same goes with my hate control as a mnk tank ... once the pt gets into a good rhythm ... and the DD's realize that, "hey ... this mnk is one bad dood ... lemme unload"


my first time main tanking to 50mnk ... i felt my strat worked fine for me .. this is with about 40guard by lvl50 ... @lvl45 i tried counterstance ... and it kinda worked but not as well as i would like

the second time tanking from 36-50 ... i maintained a capped guard every level up to lvl 42 ... guard does not cap in the course of those xp levels, so i solo skilledup on EM-T's ... i had wanted to not advance to the next level until my guard was capped, but somehow or another an ls member who i was partying with sidetracked me and i just tanked straight to 50 from 42 without capping my guard every lvl

what i did find significant was that the second time around to 50 ... counterstance worked even better ... i attribute that to my higher guard skill ... this i will discuss later

since dinging 45 the second time around ... i keep counterstance on 100% of the time ... i've main tanked to 50 with ~40-45 defense

i believe guard not only fires off more when it's capped, but i've noticed also that a higher guard seems to also increase your ability to counter

from what i've noticed, with capped guard vs. an IT ... the proc rate on guard is not dramatic like every other hit for instance ... but a capped guard will guard more than an underlvled guard ... i equate guard procs similar to how parry procs or how shield proced before the last shield update

This can be said that a judge does not have to be a criminal to judge the criminals effectively. Or a writer/journalist does not have to know as much as a doctor to write an article about human health. Or a movie critic does not have to be a director to give out excellent critics for the movie he watched. In fact, I believe that an outside person who is very perceptive and at least have some experience to related fields will be a better observer than the ones inside.

if you want to learn the trade of a criminal .. would you solicit the judge to be your teacher? or the criminal?

if you want an operation performed .. would you ask the doctor or the journalist to perform the operation?

if you want to learn about mnk tanking .. would you take the word of a mnk that only tanks or the word of a mnk or other job that doesn't? ... does their lvl/rank matter? .. i suppose it does a bit .. but i don't think lvl/rank is an overwhelming reason to believe someone

i am trying to learn about mnk tanking

i mnk tank

i feel i am successful at it ... i read numerous stories of failed mnk tankings on the same lvls that i successfully tanked and i'm trying to figure out what i'm doing different from those that had a bad experience mnk tanking

i'm to the point where i am so confident with mnk/war tanking that i've explored the possibilities of mnk/blm main tanking

i will have my complete strat up on my journal entries eventually ... for those interested, they can follow the path i took and see if they have similar experiences


how do i tank as a mnk war?

i gear up according to my gear list in my journal

i provoke and boost and punch

i use JA's if and when i think i need it


the only valid proof that i can possibly think can verify this is for me to video all my pt's ... i am not willing to expend that kind of effort

for me to tank to 50 2x ... means i've been in quite a few pt's

i've had many occassions where a skeptical pt member would still stay after voicing their skepticism or join my party thinking they are correct that a mnk can't tank ... the pt would end up having a good outing ... but these skeptical ppl never say they were wrong ... they just go on their way


if you are participating in this discussion ... i hope your intention is to help me show how mnk tanking 'works' because you would like to see mnk tanking work but haven't seen it work

if you are not participating in this discussion for that reason ... can you tell me why you are participating?


jingy

[Dryhus]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

I know Jingy's reputation on alla and now here, but in his defense his posts are intelligently written, which makes me a little bit more empathetic to his argum-

i'm to the point where i am so confident with mnk/war tanking that i've explored the possibilities of mnk/blm main tanking

Wait, wtf did you just say?

[Genesite]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

I don't care what Jinghles says, (I've read it all, and at this point, he's a broken record) there are only two accepted mega tanks for a reason. I say mega tank, because anyone can tank a VT, since they die quickly.

Paladin:
Massive defense, both naturally and in armor
Defensive abilities
Frequent shield blocking to major reduction of damage taken. This will outperform guard by a very large margin.
Self-curing abilities
Flash - This makes the enemy so blind, it's almost as powerful as utsusemi for a few seconds

Ninja:
Can't touch this. Stop! Hammer time.

I am a 75 monk. I have tanked in a very limited fashion in everything from Dynamis to Gods to solo EXP. Here's the problems with it.

1. Counterstance - Sure, your chance of countering is raised to half or more, but relies on accuracy, making high level mobs much more difficult. Even if you do find a good balance of countering more than you're getting hit, here's the kicker. Monster weapon skills ignore counter, but they sure don't ignore your non-existant DEF. Stomping anybody?

2. Guard - Don't make me laugh. Even when my guard is capped in lower level battles, I guard maybe 1/4, reducing my damage taken to about 1/4. Utsusemi is still interrupted.

3. Armor - I'd like to see some high defense armor on MNK. We get the same gear as Ninja most of the time, but there's one major issue.

4. Provoke and Utsusemi - For MNK, it's either one or the other. Never both. And if you plan on holding hate without provoke, you will be subbing ninja which is a much lower damage subjob than warrior.

Let's then assume you have a thief to give you the initial hate from SATA. My best DD set has around -25 evasion, give or take. You're not holding hate anymore, you're trying not to die while your shadows are devoured, followed by your face.

Jinghles is a troll. He acts like some sort of revolutionary martyr, but then he spams the same gunk on every forum he finds (Paladin, Ninja, Black Mage, and the obvious).

Sure, play the game for fun, but I'm not going to have fun with a MNK/BLM who takes 200 damage a hit, loses hate to a THF who just triple attacked then disbands and curses at the WHM for using Cure V too much.

/pcmd kick Jinghles

[Caspian]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

how do i tank as a mnk war?

i gear up according to my gear list in my journal

i provoke and boost and punch

i use JA's if and when i think i need it

I looked at your ffxio journal, but where it said preferred gear setup, there was nothing but a list of the slots where equipment goes. Am I missing something? Do you have another journal that I'm not seeing the link to?
Also, what food do you use when tanking? What about weapon skills? Do you participate in a skillchain or solo ws? If solo, do you wait until a spike of hate is needed or just use it whenever it hits 100%? Do you make it a point to get a thf in your party for the added enmity or do you find it to be unnecessary?

[QUOTE-Jihghles]this thread is kinda sorta not developing in the way i had hoped ...


i am tired .. and i do not know how much patience i have left ... although it may seem that my patience is inexhaustable ... i am indeed human[/QUOTE]
So your point of this thread was entirely about talking to other tanking monks and finding out what they were doing?
From your original post it came across that you both wanted the above, as well as a discussion about monk tanking. Regardless, you have to expect that on a subject such as this, that you would face speculation and questions of how and why.
Finally, I have one other question. Do you feel monk tanks are superior tanks to the other more typical tanking jobs? Or do you simply feel you are an alternative and trying to prove that what you do is reliable and safe?

[Taskmage]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Again, Jinghles's detractors provide a library of good points and arguements, whereas Jinghles's position amounts to vapor. Still no specific examples, equipment, party setups, or hard numbers, just the implication that capping guard skill will turn you into some kind of ubertank that never requires Cure III. And the only way he'll accept any arguement to these completely unsupported assertions is from someone who tanks as a monk, so nobody. Why is anyone having this conversation?

[Credos]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Seems that from your posts you are requiring a lot of effort and bending over backwards from other members in the PT to make things work for you. Why should they do that when they could just get a PLD or NIN tank and be done with it?

[Jinghles]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

if you are participating in this discussion ... i hope your intention is to help me show how mnk tanking 'works' because you would like to see mnk tanking work but haven't seen it work

if you are not participating in this discussion for that reason ... can you tell me why you are participating?

Again, Jinghles's detractors provide a library of good points and arguements, whereas Jinghles's position amounts to vapor. Still no specific examples, equipment, party setups, or hard numbers, just the implication that capping guard skill will turn you into some kind of ubertank that never requires Cure III. And the only way he'll accept any arguement to these completely unsupported assertions is from someone who tanks as a monk, so nobody. Why is anyone having this conversation?

i'd also like an answer to taskmage's question

i'd also like to know why my statements are considered 'unfounded' when other ppl reply in the same 'unfounded' way as i do

as i've said before ... we all learn from our failures, that is the nature of 'learning' ... i believe my gear list is totally different from the gear list of other mnks who have attempted mnk tanking ... i'm only making educated guesses, because i don't see any hard numbers or gear lists, or specific examples ...etc from mnks who have not tanked successfully


my tanking to 50mnk two times seems to not hold any weight whatsoever to most repliers ... it does to me

my effort in exploring guard ... and capping guard for several levels in the 30's ... and tanking with capped guard ... seems to not hold any weight neither to most repliers ... it does to me


i am continually working on my journal ... please be patient ... the gear list is now up


i prefer NOT to have a thf in my party ... i find the thf's that i've pted with have slowed things down more often then help

my preferred food on all my tanking jobs is dorado sushi ...

if you are a 50mnk or below and are interested ... give my gear a try and see what you think ^^



jingy

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

This is not really true when you compare Cure V and Cure IV. Cure V heals more but generates less hate. Aside from that, time is a very important factor in curing. More than often, you will find that using Cure II is not effective enough to keep your tank alive and you can rest. There is a small (about 4~6sec) delay between using a single cure, most whm who want to use low level cures will alternate between their cures (Cure/CureII or CureII/CureIII..etc). But using Cure III will potentially pull hate if your tank is not a very good tank (at lv50~60). Using 3 Cure II will take more time than using 1 Cure IV (capped HP heal). The extra time you manage to get can be used for something else for the Whm (resting, healing someone else, haste, erase..etc).

I did not know the importance of time saving and mp conservation for a whm until I actually have to manage it with a 5 melee PT and no one to refresh. A good tank will take very little damage, this will allow me (as a whm) to extent my rest or take some rests during battle to gain back a few MP. Combine that with cutting time using different combination of cures and regens will increase the rest time. On the other hand, for a tank that take a lot of damage (assuming hate keeping is not a problem) I will find myself standing and prepare to cure as well as casting 2~3 different cures. If the tank has a chance of being one-shotted then standing around is required, thus MP conservation will take higher risk. In other words, using only Cure I and Cure II means that the whm will have to cut into the resting time, time to haste other melees as well as curing status effects.




This can be said that a judge does not have to be a criminal to judge the criminals effectively. Or a writer/journalist does not have to know as much as a doctor to write an article about human health. Or a movie critic does not have to be a director to give out excellent critics for the movie he watched. In fact, I believe that an outside person who is very perceptive and at least have some experience to related fields will be a better observer than the ones inside.

Let's face it, tanking and meleeing will take you to the front line. This means you won't be able to see and read all the moves of your members. As you have said before, you forget about your HP after a while, this means you also forget about having a healer there trying to conserve MP and keep you alive. If you have been a back up tank for a ninja tank, trying to count his shadows and his timing along with the monster's attack so you can provoke right before he gets interrupted or one-shotted is extremely hard, even if you're at the front line and close to him. Being a melee and a tank at the front line will keep you from looking around at other members. So it's hard to know if you're a good tank or not by just looking at how you keep hate. Remember that, a decent tank will manage to get all the enmity he can get while a good tank will manipulate it.

In fact, the one to judge if a tank is good or not is not the tank but rather the thf or another power house DD or the healer. So, if you want to say that you are good at tanking then all we can do is to ask for other means to measure your 'greatness'. Since you can't really count your exp/hr it's hard for us to know if it's a 'good' or a 'bad' PT you are having. We then asked for your equipments, tactics, moves as well as other observations. Still, you have yet to provide adequate information, most of which are very narrow-viewed to a tank's perspective (or rather a tank that only worries about keep hate). The way you described your experience (or whatever you can call it) is more like a one-man 'good-time' show, I hardly see objective views or views from other people in your PT.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, the definition of a 'good' PT or a 'bad' PT is difficult to explain but rather you can only experience it to actually compare it. The way I see it, a 'good' PT means perfect harmonization between all members of the party, good exp flow (at least 5~8k per hour), minimal stress on members and more importantly having a good time. Also, 'good' PT can mean a great experience, you learn new things and operate at another level than what you normally do - this has to apply to all members.

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QFT

Every point I was going to bring up, until I read this. I'd rate you up, but I've got like crap for rate-up stuffs.

As for the portion directed at me thanks Its all stuff I'm just getting into but mostly have a grasp on now... was more asking questions and making statements to provoke further exploration of the subject (Cause I do find it interesting), than out of a personal need for explination ^^ Still apprecitate it the explination though!

[nazlfrag]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

if i'm successfully tanking in game, there is nothing you can say to me that will change that

That is fine, but to be sucessful at any role in this game requires the support of your team. To sucessfully tank requres the whole parties cooperation. No-one wants to stop you tanking, they just want to know if it works or not, and if so how and why. People won't take it at face value that monks can tank, they have seen monks that pull too much hate get eaten alive, even with all those hp and vit bonuses.

unless i'm missing it, am i correct that everyone that has responded to this thread are not mnk tanks?

Yes, any mage, any melee job wants to know a few things.
Things such as: How do you hold hate? How do you get it back? How do you avoid losing hate to damage dealt/cured? How long can you last with no support?

Blm wants to know how much they can nuke, and what elemental enfeebles they should use. Whm wants to know if they will get hurt from cure spamming, and if they can gain 1-2 ticks of rest in the fight. Rdm wants to know all of this, as well as a good time to convert mid-battle (ie. when do you have hate firmly established). Any DD wants to know when they can open up with their JA's (rampage, sneak attack, chi blast etc..) Thf wants to know who to sata and when. Sam wants to know how fast you build tp, with all that damage output and getting hit you might be able to keep up with him. These are just a few questions I would have from playing these jobs.

You will get other jobs asking questions, and they are perfectly valid questions. You won't get any high level career monks that I know telling you different to Genesite, and that is a mnk tank is situational, sub optimal for regular pickup parties, and takes too big a walloping from enemy JA's to make up for with counter and guard.

Could you please awnser a few simple questions:
Do you use Defender?
How quickly can you get back hate from a SATA on someone else?
Have you partied with a pld or nin and switched roles with them, comparing your tanking?
Thanks for putting up your gear. It seems similar to what a nin would use. I was curious about the Cavalier's Mantle, do you use it with the rest of your +eva equipment? Or is it a part of a different gear setup?
Please elaborate on why you use Dorado(sp?) sushi instead of traditional +def tanking foods.

Personally, I'm glad someone is looking to make more valid tank classes, but you seem to lack any information on how to do this with monk. I would like to try it, but I need more info on how and why than 'copy my gear and try it!'

[Freyr]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Jingles can post a lot of text but I have to ask where's the beef...

[Drogen_Shomuro]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Meh, I think this thread is starting to go in circles.

Monk tanking... Possible? Yes.
...Efficient? Probably not.

I think it's kinda cool that the thread became this long without flaming though.

if you are participating in this discussion ... i hope your intention is to help me show how mnk tanking 'works' because you would like to see mnk tanking work but haven't seen it work

if you are not participating in this discussion for that reason ... can you tell me why you are participating?

Jinghles, if you're truly trying to look for methods to refine your tanking technique, then you shouldn't be seeing all these criticisms and questions as off-topic, but rather as an opportunity for inspection and change. How else are you going to improve something without having someone point at a piece of it and saying, "What's that for? Why?"

The best way to learn something thoroughly is to try and teach it.