Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

[AngryUndead]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

We actually can evade quite a bit, having a B+, I think the 3rd highest evasion in the game(?). It's just usally for DD we're wearing several -eva +atk pieces. I swap out that sort of gear for counter+ or eva+ if I find I pull hate for more than a few seconds, or if say the tank goes face down in the dirt. I may not evade every other hit, but its not horrible either (my other job is rdm, now THAT is poor evasion!). Then add a counter check at around 10-15% of hits, and significantly more when counterstanced.

Yes, we have a B+ and I keep mine capped and I just don't notice much actual evading going on. On a VT it is very noticible, but heck, TW's can still hit me, even with "my" SH on. On an IT I never seem to evade at all.

I've got no problem tanking when it needs to happen, like the situations you mentioned. But without AF my chakra heals for about 1 hit. Counterstance helps a good bit... and I never use defender. I just hope the healers can hang on and try and keep the mob focused on me. Otherwise I wait for them to start zoning.

I do, however, believe it is part of the monk's job description to be that guy when the main tank needs you.

[Jinghles]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

^^

amazing how a rather inocuous OP of mine can seemingly bring about such undertones of 'anger' in so many repliers

i post on mnk tanking because i have had success with it

many of you will argue my definition of 'success' ... that is not an argument that i have any interest in

i base my postings on my actual in game experience ... whether or not you believe the truthfulness of my posting has never been a major concern of mine in any forums i visit and it's not a priority of mine to try and prove my truthfulness

i post on forums to share ideas with other mnk tanks ... for i have only ever tanked up to the early 50's and i have more to learn

over the course of various forums postings, there have been many replies that i've read on failed mnk tanking experiences on levels that i've personally experienced ... my own tanking experience in those levels are contrary to those failed attempts

i promote mnk tanking because my own experiences tell me that i can

if you decide to reply to me based on experiences that i have not experienced myself, there is no way for me to respond to you, and i won't ... i thank you for your concern, but i will find out for myself when i reach that lvl .. when i do and i find that what i've been 'told to expect' does not happen ... then i will share my findings with the mnk communities that i visit

to the point that i am now ... main tanking every pt that i form/join ... everything that i have been 'told to expect' ... i have not seen to be true for me

there has to be a reason for my percieved success

discussion with other mnks is not a detriment to finding out the truth

________________________


thank you mods for responding to my concern

in my 'other forums' expereiences, many of my chosen topics of discussion was derailed by flamers and eventually closed due to these same flamers ... i, as a poster with a legitimate topic of discussion should not be penalized for a desire for discussion on reasonable topic because flamers invade and take over

those 'other forums', in my mind, basically rewarded the flamers and shut down relevant discussion on a topic that might not be main stream popular, but forums is not about a popularity contest is it? .. a good forums strives to provide information on all aspects of that specific forums, not just the popular ones

i'm not sure how much power you mods have here on these forums ... i foresee many flames on my topic of choice and i foresee many attacks on my character in my chosen threads ... am i to recieve the same treatment that i've experienced in other forums or are the mods here going to be objective and fair about the presence of jinghles on their boards?

my intention is not to make needless work for the mods of this forum ... i am just giving a heads up to the mods on the experience i've had posting on other forums with my ideas

i would like to see what kind of discussion i get on my topics of choice in these mnk forums, if the mods of this forums don't feel that i am a voice that this community would like to hear, just let me know and i will cease and desist

i would like to see action taken to consistent flamers in my chosen topics



jingy

[Freyr]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

If Square would make guard trigger more and raise in levels faster like shield is now it would help the hole monk tank dynamic. Also how about when you counter a enemy they can be dazed so they can't evade or attack for a few seconds. Put it in as counter 2 at level 30 to add this.

Also they need to throw the nurf bat not at the ninja mains but the people that sub ninja. Giving people that sub ninja 90% of the power that helps ninja tanks hurts all people that tank jobs as there main job. They just need to make shadows trigger before eva to weaken /nin people but not totally cripple them.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Well, that all depends on how well you yourself are open to discussion. If you are of a singular mindset and persist on arguing your point without proof when others have already proven you wrong, then the thread might be deemed to be going in circles and closed. Similarly, if others continue to argue with you even after you've proven them wrong, then the thread could be closed as well.

Civil discussion is welcomed here. Having proof to back up your claims (such as parses, screenshots, etc) help too (cause people will see through BS).

[Jinghles]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

this thread is intended for discussion of 'successful aspects' of 'monk tanking', the overwhelming majority of ppl already believe that mnks cannot tank at all levels, so please don't bother with clogging up this thread with your failed attempts at mnk tanking

i do not wish to focus on the failures, but the successes ... even though most failures serve the purpose of learning to be successful

instead, i ask for replies to this thread to focus more on your 'own successful experiences' with mnk tanking ... or experiences where you saw a mnk tank going against the norm, doing this or that

include as much specific information as possible ... and if you draw conclusions, please include your personal reasons for drawing those conclusions

the more detail you can provide, the more the reader has to chew on ^^


mnk tanking i feel is relatively unexplored ... some may argue that mnk tanking has proven to not 'work'

i argue that people who do not know how to make it 'work' are the only voices heard, and this discourages others from trying ... i am making my successful voice heard


mnk tanking is about a combination of many different theories ... rather than start a new thread for each theory, i decided to start one thread to encompass all aspects of mnk tanking ... time will tell if my choice to do this is worthwhiled

if you do not wants to discuss monk tanking, then please do not reply to this thread


if i did not answer a specific question of yours in this thread, i may have missed it ... please don't bump this thread by asking your question again, just forum message me and i will answer it the next time i respond in this thread with new information ^^

____________

neighbortaru ... i'm still getting used to this forums and i just noticed that you are on ramora, so you are not the same 'neighbor' i've seen on ifrit

i also noticed that you are 'teh bad cop' ^^ >>>{understood}

____________


as always i am open to any question you may have about my experiences

this thread is not a guide or walk through on mnk tanking

this thread is about learning to be a mnk tank

to learn is to make mistakes

i am not above making mistakes

i am not one to dwell on mistakes neither ... i mostly learn from my 'mistakes'

learning from others mistakes is kicking it up a notch

i'm finding that i've learned more from other ppl's mistakes than they have themselves



jingy

[Omni]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

can one of you take this into the field and report back? im actually interested in seeing how well mnk can mitigate/avoid dmg and keep hate in a tanking situation. i believe this was touched upon already in this thread but to give a people a better idea of mnk tanking someone needs to put out some real numbers for comparison.

it's obvious that any job that isnt suited for tanking will make it harder on the mages. ie: ninjas avoid dmg all together and plds heal themselves. this we already know, dependence on outside healing will always be the down side to a non-traditional tank.

however, if a mnk could do the following and just briefly jot down the avg numbers i think it would be interesting to see.

focus on tanking. do not worry about dd output.
gear up in the best def. rated/tank gear possible for your level.
slap on as much +vit items. ie: rings, gorgets, belts, mantles etc.
if available, wear as much -% dmg reduction gear.
eat tacos for def and vit. drink au laits.
use defender and dodge/focus.

anyone up for it?

[Caspian]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

can one of you take this into the field and report back? im actually interested in seeing how well mnk can mitigate/avoid dmg and keep hate in a tanking situation. i believe this was touched upon already in this thread but to give a people a better idea of mnk tanking someone needs to put out some real numbers for comparison.

it's obvious that any job that isnt suited for tanking will make it harder on the mages. ie: ninjas avoid dmg all together and plds heal themselves. this we already know, dependence on outside healing will always be the down side to a non-traditional tank.

however, if a mnk could do the following and just briefly jot down the avg numbers i think it would be interesting to see.

focus on tanking. do not worry about dd output.
gear up in the best def. rated/tank gear possible for your level.
slap on as much +vit items. ie: rings, gorgets, belts, mantles etc.
if available, wear as much -% dmg reduction gear.
eat tacos for def and vit. drink au laits.
use defender and dodge/focus.

anyone up for it?

I would be very interested to see it. I do think you'll end up running into the same problems as WAR/MNK. Parties who are unwilling to put forth the extra effort to make it successful. Like I said in the BLU tanking thread, PLD's have a hard time getting parties b/c of NIN's, and they can heal themselves to an extent. MNK's and WAR's have to try that much harder to get noticed and actually get a pickup party willing to let them try.
Btw, Jinghles. What was your average xp/hr in the parties in which you tanked? Better or worse than a conventional PLD or NIN party?

[Omni]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

yea i think the problems of any non conventional tank will be due to the fact you have no way to offset the dmg done to you. the only way is to have someone else heal you. if you but that aside, and just looked at the dmgs done i bet it would be pretty interesting.

the thing is most ppl that arent usually tanks like war/mnk and mnks dont carry FULL tank gear. they might have some pieces here and there but i doubt they carry dedicated tank gear. that's what i want to see. mnk in full tank gear and tanking mentality.

[Rising Tornado]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

amazing how a rather inocuous OP of mine can seemingly bring about such undertones of 'anger' in so many repliers

You aren't realy amazed, Jinghles; or if you are, you've a remarkably short and selective memory (though I personally give you credit for being smart enough to know this was coming).

Your post is innocuous, yes. Your proposals, to begin with, are likewise.
It's just that you've already soured some people to the idea of discussing them with you, based on the way in which you've approached discussion, validation, and disproval of your assertions in the past.

Nonetheless, I wish you better luck here than elsewhere. /bow

[Isanov]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Disclaimer: I am not a newb, but I am not experienced. I played the game a time ago bringing a number of characters to lv-20ish, but never suppassed that. I'm new again, but I have lurked on forums for some time. This is my opinion based on that.


Its understandable that the majority have a bias against MNK tanking, given exeryoe's experiences in pty leveling. In truth, MNK tanking is possible but takes dedication and money...

You have to have top of the line equipment. MNK defense is the main reason we dont tank, and it will be your biggest weakness. There is not much you can do to mitigate it besides taking top equipment and high defense foods.

You probably will need two static parties. One will the MNK tanking because invites will be non-existant, and its probably a good idea to have 2.5 whitemages (two WHM/? and one RDM/? or ?/WHM). The second static will be a skillup party for leveling guard, and you will have to de-level to keep with your first static.

Perhaps the most important thing to have is a stong understanding of the regions. With a MNK tank you will be leveling up in different areas and fighting a lot of bones. I'd imagine anyone who has played BST probably will have a good handle on where to go.

Look at it this way, you have two big dis-advantages. One is bias against MNK tanking, but that can be dealt with with a static. The second is defense, which you can only do so much with.

That said, you have some great benefits. Hate will be simple to manage due to decent damage with WS spikes, not to mention the fact that 100 Fists will grab gobbues of hate. Vitality, HP, counter.. its all good stuff.


What is your subjob? I realize people may be shocked to think of anything but /war, but consider it a min. With decent damage and a good THF you might be able to keep hate without provoke. MNk/PLD with a good THF in your party should work (if your BLM, RNG or DRK knows not to go balistic). I would put the ideal party like this:
MNK/PLD - Tank
THF/WAR - Keeps the hate on you and potential emergency tank
WHM/BLM - Healer
RNG/??? - DD and puller
SMN or BRD/WHM - Backup healer
WAR/MNK - DD and backup tank

[Jei]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

With out provoke I don't see anyway you can tank properly. Especially the Whm will be making consistant hate all the time with cure. You will need the spike from provoke to protect your poor little whm.

[AngryUndead]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

/hijack

Whats up Tenmiles!

/hijack off

Uhmm, *cough* yea... without provoke I don't think boost is going to let you pull enough hate. Your MP would be abysmal as well. Especially if you're a galka.

[Freyr]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Personally MNK/PLD does not bring enough to the table to be worth it.

MP: As mnk/pld you'll have the MP at 75 of a pld/war 50 levels below you.
Curing: Takes alot of time that you should be using punching stuff to keep hate. Even then it's only one to six cure 2s depending on race at 75. If your galka forget it.
Skills: A few simple cures does not make up for the lossing one of the the best skills from warrior(Defender) in straight up tanking. And if your countertanking the loss of Berserk and all the other sweet damage abilities.

The only way I see monk tanks working really well is agianst VTs that hit super fast but not hard per hit. With the monk pimped out in acc and counter gear. Using Counter Stance 24/7.

If square gave a decent buff to our counter to work really really well in certain instances and made guard worth something, monk tanking would be a thing of beauty. Hell even better counter gear as we level would help a ton.

A sushi(+15%acc) with +5 counter and no att or str on it would be sick. You need good acc for counter to be effective.

Hello tenmiles.

http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/

[Omni]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

mnk tank will need mnk/war. period.

[Veve]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

MNK/BLM should be able to tank with ice sp...oh wait.

Anyways, MNK tanks fine until about 30 with the right gear. I do not believe they can stand up to NIN or PLD, even WAR due to MP problems.