Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

[AngryUndead]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Jhingy, man, you crack me up!




I've got no problems with a MNK tank. It just isnt for me, to be sure. I don't like being a tank much, for starters. I also like to focus on dealing damage. Then there is the wild differences in gear involved, and the totally different strategy. I also don't have the persistance to level up my guard. I barely have the persistance to level up monk at all.

I'm just noticing that this is how it starts with you, and you know it.

But you've already managed to troll quite a few people into trying to flame you. Its just a sign of how good you are at comming off like you don't know what you're doing. I think you've been one of the more insidious masters of it actually, knowing how to get under people's skin.

Deny it if you want... but...


Again, you crack me up.

[Freyr]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

AngryUndead is correct Jinghles is a well know troll off the alla board.

Dread Lörd Kaolian
Professor of Meat Sciences wrote:
Jinghles, allow me this opertunity to be somewhat blunt:
You suck.

[Mrfrodo]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Link to Jinghles post on alla asking for the admins to do something about his being persecuted by people that spent way too much time trying to reason with/educate/debate with Jinghles. Ultimately all of his posts fester into flamewars due to his posting tactics and generally driving a lot of the community bonkers. He's a very very talented troll.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...;num=23;page=1

I don't wish to even bother with reading any of his posts, is there someway to /blist his posting so that I never see them myself while spending time here?

[neighbortaru]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

discussion is fine. flaming is not.

if you can prove him wrong, please feel free to do so instead of saying "you suck" or other such nonsense.

I for one am of the opinion that a monk tanking is about as efficient as a Hummer. Seems stupid to me, but if you feel like driving one around with today's gas prices go right ahead...

and for those that don't know, there is an ignore option on these boards.

[AngryUndead]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

I don't like to hold his past against him... I also like to watch him work.

But there is no reasoning with him, even in the face of proof.

This is his "toe in the water" phase. To see how people react to monks tanking. I think that among us monks we've decided who likes it, who doesn't, and who does it better.

We can beat that horse forever.

Next it will be somthing like CHR effects Counter or some foolishness. Or it could be... I'm trying to hold the past against him anyway...

And at first, I thought you were talking about a different type of Hummer. Rawr.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

disruptive and problematic people will be rooted out soon enough. we, I in particular, aren't really fond of trouble makers.

[AngryUndead]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

I find that Jhingy himself is never the problem. Its the people he riles up . He's always cool, collected, ready to put up a strawman defense or backtrack his arguments. He never flames though.

Thats why he's good ^^

[neighbortaru]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

people who incite flames are considered trouble makers too. if he does indeed prove to have a habit of doing so, he will be dealt with accordingly.

that being said, I think it's about time we get back on topic ^^
(or if everyone chooses to ignore it, let the thread die into obscurity)

[Mrfrodo]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

THANKYOU for pointing out there is an ignore option, I finally found it in with the CP for friend/buddy/ignore list. ^^b

[Partyboy]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

wow how do you get your gaurd that high, I can never raise mine I always get evation up instead of gaurd.

[LemmingkingXXX]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

I can personally attest to the greatness of mnk tanking in early levels (I wouldn't try it without a galka though) Keeping guard skilled and wearing the "light" armor (bone, beetle, padded etc.) will provide a hate machine on the level of war/mnk (at 30 you have the goodness of Dodge, Focus, Counter, and Berserk o.o).

Jhingles, just so you know, bring up mnk/blm spike tanking on these forums and may god have mercy on your soul.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

Well, my favorite party setup so far is a bones party, which means obviously the heaviest hitting mnk is tank. In that respect, I like MNK tanks and they do well with /war. That being said however, if I were to go out to a "standard" xp party and I found out a mnk was tanking and hadn't been told in advanced, I'd turn around and leave right there. If I was told in advanced then I would politely decline.

While it is true that with proper gear, proper knowledge of what is being faught as well as alternative zones/camps from the standard, a MNK/WAR tank is fine... I have found that very few if any MNK/WAR tanks take the time to go that far. They just pop on the +Def gear, get voke happy, and things go downhill from there.

I'll stick with PLD and NIN, thank you very much. At least if they turn out to be "just ok" players, I'll still get decent XP. Ain't gonna happen with MNK tanking.

As for questions, yes, I do have a few for you... First, what makes you on par with PLD and NIN? I mean, you say you don't have any data, and only hearsay. I take that to mean that at sometime, somewhen, someone said, "OMG! Dude! This Monk tank is totally awesome!" Career tank or not, that doesn't really mean anything without data.

I mean, I'm a career backline support, and I've got hard data as to why, and where I can replace a RDM with enfeebs (as well as hard data as to why I don't)

Until then... its just hearsay, which - no offence - is pretty worthless since I don't actually know you.

[arkaine23]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

I don't see a problem with it in theory.

Pro's for a mnk tank:

High evasion + dodge

high vitality and hp

damage output is not bad even with defender and not using sushi due to high attack frequency + focus

counter

boost spam

self-healing once/5 minutes


Con's for a monk tank:

weak defense

not so many hate tools



To pull it off, one would need:

high def gear, def food like tacos, enmity+, acc+, eva+, to avoid eva- gear, and good support from the backline. Counter + and having near-cap guard will make this much more effective. Using some regen drinks would probably make your healers hate you much less. ^^


Inital Chi Blast and voke/boost spamming should hold pretty decent hate. You'd need to be able to hit what your fighting though too.


This will probably work best chaining VT's. A monk's natural abilities would shine more vs fast/weak-hitting mobs, than slow hard-hitting mobs, having more chances to counter and dodge, and better proc rate on guard.

[AngryUndead]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

While it is true that it looks nice in theory, there are several things I don't agree with.

High evasion + dodge

This really doesn't help on the VT+, IT mobs that most pople want to fight. As far as the T and VT chains go, it helps some. I've never been that impressed with Dodge. We just don't have the same dodge as ninja, and even they have a hard time sometimes. We can't evade everything.

high vitality and hp

We'd need around 4x the VIT and 3x the HP of a paladin for it to allow us to tank in the same manner that they do... meat shield. We can't take every hit.

damage output is not bad even with defender and not using sushi due to high attack frequency + focus

I don't like defender, and won't use it unless it really comes down to the wire. I'd rather pop counterstance, in fact... I'll get to why in a second. Focus helps a good deal, but the attack frequency won't help that much if we're doing crap damage. I would hate to fight some of the mobs without sushi after 55.

counter

Only goes off like 10% of the time, and 40% with Counterstance. I think, I can't remember the hard numbers right now. On VT type mobs I love counterstance. I only have examples from Raptors and Crabs, but I normally take 150 damage/hit from them, and hardly ever counter. With counterstance it seems like I counter 1-2 out of 3 times. This means over three hits, I go from taking 450 damage, to taking 320 damage PLUS getting a free attack. I don't know if healers perfer the less damage overall, or they perfer more damage in more manageable chunks. That'd be good to know. I find that counterstance and counter are less effective on IT mobs, though I have no hard data to back this up. Probably because I don't like standing around and getting creamed by IT mobs.

boost spam

This gives us 1/3 a provoke every 15 seconds. Thats not too shabby. In a minutes time we can have 3 and 1/3 provokes. Thats alot more than a paladin or war... but remember that Boost, Provoke, and Counterstance seem to be our only ablities that pull hate. A bit of an un-versatile pool, if you ask me.

self-healing once/5 minutes

Who are we kidding? I heal 144 health (roughly 9.6%) with chakra out of 1500hp. Thats without AF. I think AF will bring it to 210 (14%). This is nothing every five minutes. Mainly I use it as an "oh shit" or to fix blind without pestering a mage.

high def gear, def food like tacos, enmity+, acc+, eva+, to avoid eva- gear, and good support from the backline. Counter + and having near-cap guard will make this much more effective. Using some regen drinks would probably make your healers hate you much less. ^^

I'd really hate to give up sushi, other than that this is sound. Regen drinks are always nice, food gets so little love in this game. I wouldn't go orgasmic over counter+ gear, each +1 adds about 1% of counter. I also find the best way for healers to like you, is to never pull hate.

You'd need to be able to hit what your fighting though too.

I think the higher you go, the more critical this becomes.

This will probably work best chaining VT's. A monk's natural abilities would shine more vs fast/weak-hitting mobs, than slow hard-hitting mobs, having more chances to counter and dodge, and better proc rate on guard.

I think that with counterstance you're better off with slow VT's that hit hard, and here is why: they rely on EVERY hit to do damage. Think about how ineffective a DRK is when they miss two hits in a row. Now imagine if they were countered so that the DRK took damage. Plus you get to take 40% of the times that they would have hit you and turned that in to damage. That last sentance is what makes the fast hitters so darn appealing. I think we have an easier time with them than a NIN would. But a PLD has the tools to deal with that more effectively.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but that it probably shouldn't in 99% of the cases. I've done it before on purpose with bats ~56 in KRT and on accident (sorry to my PLD, but I was two levels above him) at ~58 with Crabs and Crawlers in The Bhoyada Tree. I've done it lots more than that, and I've never liked it.

Its just not my style, in the end...

[arkaine23]

Re: Jingy on mnk tanking ... guard/counter/etc...

We actually can evade quite a bit, having a B+, I think the 3rd highest evasion in the game(?). It's just usally for DD we're wearing several -eva +atk pieces. I swap out that sort of gear for counter+ or eva+ if I find I pull hate for more than a few seconds, or if say the tank goes face down in the dirt. I may not evade every other hit, but its not horrible either (my other job is rdm, now THAT is poor evasion!). Then add a counter check at around 10-15% of hits, and significantly more when counterstanced.

About Chakra, at level 63 with AF and full vit gear swaps I'm healing 240hp, and I'm sure if I had some more gil to blow I could improve it a bit more. I think its +4 hp per point of vitality with AF on. Just by upgrading my rings and by adding my new bibiki seashell to the mix I think I could crank it to 272 hp healed. That's a Cure 3 1/2 at least. It's not a pld's self-curing by any stretch, but its something, and better than a ninja's self-curing ability by far... I'm betting by 75 I can get it up to 350ish, almost a Cure 4.


The point is that none of these things on their own make for good tanking, yet there are a lot of little things that if you take them as a whole and use them to their fullest, can make you halfway decent vs the right enemies. I wouldn't advocate it past the 30's, nor against IT mobs, just that it is doable.


A far better use of this line of discussion is for tactics to coop-tank or emergency back-up tank. Having the ja's & damage output to pull hate momentarily for others to perform an SATA WS, being able to reduce damage for short periods by having a small edge over many jobs in evasion, countering, and a once in awhile self cure.... those are far more suitable to a monk's natural abilities than straight meat tanking. And there is a lot of gear available to optimize these tasks if one choose to A) carry it and B) swap it in and out when needed. Maybe its just the RDM in me....

Personally, I'll pop defender the second I steal hate, and swap a lot of gears to improve defense, vitality, counter, and evasion until the heat is off when I can swap back and cancel Defender. Think about it- my acc and atk drop significantly for 10 seconds or so with defender and the tanking gear, I whiff or hit for low damage for a breif period which makes it easier for the tank to get hate back... It's better than tunring around until the tank gets hate back right? At least I can still guard and counter....

I'll generally use Dodge a little after Berserk since Zerk increases the likelihood of me stealing hate from the tank. I'm not a Berserk-canceller unless I'm really in trouble. My primary purpose is to do massive damage over time and in WS. My duty is to avoid taking hate as much as possible, take as little damage as possible when I have hate, hit hard to give the most damage I can per strike that's giving TP to mob, while maintaining a decent rate of TP gain relative to my SC partner(s). Monk is a job that one should constantly balance and fine tune. It's got enough abilities to pull off mediocre tanking, but why would you want to?