Information on SATA and etc

[Kabuki]

Hey guys. I'm a first timer for playing a melee job. Can you guys explain SATAing being used in pt and how it all works? I remember seeing somethin like a MNK using howling fist and gets agro, then the thief readies SATA and uses it behind the tank. Is that correct? I wonder how the MNK can draw agro from just 1 WS. Anyways I am totally clueless to this and if there is a good guide out there to explain everything about SATA, I would be glad to read it. I am completely lost at playing a melee because I've been a mage most of my life and if theres a monk macro guide out there that would be nice too.

[Kailo]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Well, here's how the abilities work. SA guarantees that your next hit will become critical (thus guaranteeing a hit as well) so long as you're attacking the monster's back. For THF main, TA is just like a normal attack (slightly less accuracy though?) only it allows you to modify damage based on the amount of AGI you have (more AGI, more damage). The damage done with TA transfers any hate gained to a person, so long as that person is standing in front of you, between you and the monster, with their backs turned to you. When paired together, SATA allows you to land a critical strike (even some WSs) and transfer all hate from the chunk of damage done onto the person you are SATA'ing off of. However to use these 2 abilities in conjunction you must be positioned so that both have effects. The position looks as follows:

(Sub Tank)> <(Monster) <(Tank) <(THF)

The arrows show the direction the players and monster are facing. The sub tank will grab aggro from the tank, turning the monster towards them and allowing the tank to get behind the monster (striking from behind for SA) while at the same time allowing the THF to position behind the tank (striking behind somebody to transfer hate of TA). Thus, the THF pulls off a chunky damage number where all of the chunky hate attached to the damage number go to the tank. You can also SATA off of the sub tank if the main tank is comfortable with it. Sometimes main tanks keep hate so well, they don't mind the giant spike of hate placed on the sub tank in order to cause burst damage. The only difference in this situation is the placement of the sub and main tank:

(Tank)> <(Monster) <(Sub Tank) <(THF)

However, what's nice about this method is you don't have to worry about the sub tank taking hate in order for things to work. Most of the time SATA is utilized during a WS, so that the THF can close a WS with big damage (thus big SC and MB) and transfer all that big damage hate onto the person who wants it (or doesn't mind having it). In the most typical situation of this nature, the starting line-up will be as follows:

(THF)> (Tank)> <(Monster) <(Sub Tank)

Here, the tank will begin by allowing his hate to slip slightly to allow the sub tank to take hate once he uses his WS, opening the SC. The sub tank uses the opening WS, taking hate, and the monster just turns around, leaving it's back open for SATA as follows:

(THF)> (Tank)> (Monster)> <(Sub Tank)

The THF follows immediately with his own SATA + WS to finish the chain with high damage and hate transfer onto the tank (so the monster turns back around attacking the tank) Using this method, the sub tank will typically take a few hits, so the sub tank partner will have to be a class that can take hits somewhat.

One thing to note is that the SATA methods of a main THF, and a /THF are identical, with the only real difference being that /THF doesn't get a DEX modifier with SA or an AGI modifier with TA like a THF would (put simply, the SA and TA abilities themselves put out more damage with a THF main, assuming he gears himself for it. However with a /THF, increasing damage comes from increasing the WS [usually STR in the case of a MNK], and not the SATA like a THF main).

Sorry if I went overbaord with this or assumed you knew too little, but I knew SATA'ing was confusing for me the first time I was getting into it so I wanted to make sure you understood If you have any other questions please feel free to post or even PM me. I'd be glad to help further. Also, if I've made any mistakes in my explanation, please, correct me so that the OP can be informed ^^

[Kabuki]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

As a monk, do we provoke, boost, and then WS to get ahold of the hate when the THF's SATA is ready?

[Kailo]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

At low lvls when MNK subs WAR, he or she will typically be the sub tank. In such a case, the MNK/WAR would provoke an incoming mob the THF pulls, then the PT will position for the SATA, and the THF will SATA back onto the tank, followed by the tank's provoke (secures hate in the beginning of the fight). This is where SATA is used most often in a standard THF or /THF PT (changes and different variants arise at later lvls)

As for the middle of a fight, trying to WS, a good MNK will use their WS to open the SC (positioned like sample #3) and if he hasn't taken hate from the tank (you have to have a quick eye with matching reflexes for this sometimes), he'll follow with a quick provoke or other substantial hate gaining ability for the THF, who follows by closing the SC with a SATA + WS behind the tank (and mob who has just turned). However for just a normal SATA without SC or WS, if the tank doesn't mind and is confident in keeping hate, the THF can just run around and SATA off of the MNK/WAR in a position like #2. if the tank isn't confortable with that, however, (like a NIN tank), the THF just has to grin and bear it without using SATA in the middle of fights, off of SC.

In the case of a MNK/THF, the MNK/THF will play the role that the THF did in the previous example and a different job will play the role of the sub tank. Take note, however, that a sub tank doesn't always need to have provoke. At low lvls it's just easier. Higher lvls, things like RNG can play the role of a sub tank quite well, because their opening WS (usually Sidewinder of Slug Shot) is plenty enough damage to take hate off the tank (as well as their Utsusemi to dodge those first few hits). However weaker RNGs have trouble doing this.

[Kabuki]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Thanks that is really helpful.^^
Do you know of the necessary macros I should have for Monk? It confuses me on how I should set them up.

[Redlimit]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

It is easier for a MNK to pull temporary hate for a SATA situation than you may think, especially at 60+. A strong Boost + Weapon Skill is often enough to turn the mob in your direction, and if it is not enough you can always use Provoke or some of your other abilties (Dodge, Focus, Berserk, Warcry, Counterstance, Chakra - they all cause small ammounts of hate you can use if you have to, but usually you won't need anything but the Weapon Skill and Provoke).

This kind of thing is very commonplace later on in the game. This setup usually allows maximum skillchain damage and hate control every fight. This can also work earlier on in the game, but it will not be as effective until the stronger Weapon Skills become available on all jobs.

[Kailo]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner Kabuki, but I was actually running late for some things Necessary MNK macros? Hmm, well, I can't really say because my MNK is only lvl 15 (lol!), so all my SATA and meleeing experience in general has been done with DRK. There are several different macros you can have to suit your needs. Generally, you'll decide for yourself what macros you'll want to have as you play your MNK more and more. My personal choice for my DRK/THF, however, is a SA macro, a TA macro, and a SATA + WS macro. With these, I can combine them to take the varied actions I want for different situations. If I want to SA alone, the SA macro. If I want to SA + WS, I use my SA macro then follow with a WS manually. Same for TA. If I want to SATA without WS, I just bust my SA and TA macro one after another. None of my subbed ability macros for /THF have /p lines to let the PT know I'm doing them, so I can combine them without becoming annoying The SA and TA abilities make a specific enough noise to indicate I've used them, regardless of who can see. All other macros are just my boost up abilities (Souleater, Last Resort), TP reports, my absorb spells (only needed ones), and stun.

As for my DRK/WAR, I've found that there really is no need for WS macros, and that most of them can be used manually, even with SCs. It may be different for others, or for you (some people would rather hit the macro instead of hitting ctrl+w then selecting the WS) But for me, I only have macros for my various abilities (Provoke, Berserk, Last Resort, Souleater, etc.) and my spell/TP report macros. For a MNK, I think you can do fine with the same basic idea. Just all your MNK abilities, only reason being that it's easier than doing it all manually. Most of the time they don't need to be /p'd because usually the party couldn't care less when you Boost or Focus, however certain abilities that you only use right before pulling off your WS in a SC become helpful sometimes to be /p'd. It builds up as a pattern for whoever you're PTing with so they know that once you've flashed your TP as being over 100, you're ready, but you're initiating your SC when they see you using those specific abilities. For me with my DRK, there are only 2 (Last Resort, Souleater). Seeing as how in most cases these are used right before a WS and not at many other times, people know to be ready for SC when they see the /p for them. Take note that I would never pair Souleater with WS at lower lvls, and I only pair it with WS now in conjunction with SATA, or at least TA onto the tank

Now one macro I did find helpful when I was lvling MNK was to have a repeating Boost macro. What this means is you set your Boost macro to fire off multiple times one after another, so you don't have to continually boost boost boost. It looks as follows:

/ja "Boost" <me>
/wait 15
/ja "Boost" <me>
/wait 15
/echo Re-use Boost

Sometimes you may have to change the /wait to 16 rather than 15 due to delay, but generally this should work. The /echo line is to show you the macro is complete so you can re-use it for 2 more boosts. You could just count the 2 Boosts, but sometimes things get too hectic and it's eadier just to see when it's ready. /echo only sends the text to you, and you can use whatever saying you want to in order to remind yourself. As a rule of thumb, though, /echo lines following the wait time of ability macros are very helpful. This way you know when you can and can't use the ability, like on an SA macro for instance:

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 30
/echo Sneak Attack Ready!

Or you can even leave /p notices to update your PT on the situation as well (however I find that these annoy more than help, but they might be useful for early lvls with less seasoned players):

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 15
/p Sneak Attack at 15!
/wait 15
/p Sneak Attack Ready!

I personally just have the /echo line replaced with a /recast line on the macro so the macro functions as an ability initiator as well as a timer check:

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/recast "Sneak Attack"

This way every time I use the macro, it initiates SA if possible and tells me that the cooldown was at 0:00:00 (ready), or if not ready, it tells what the cooldown is at. A lot of mages use this for their magic spells and it can be very helpful.

Anyway, just some ideas. You can play with the ones you like and eventually, like I said, you'll figure out for yourself what macros you want. I hope I answered any questions you had ^^ And as always, don't be afraid to ask any other questions, or PM them too me.

[Aeni]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

It is easier for a MNK to pull temporary hate for a SATA situation than you may think, especially at 60+. A strong Boost + Weapon Skill is often enough to turn the mob in your direction, and if it is not enough you can always use Provoke or some of your other abilties (Dodge, Focus, Berserk, Warcry, Counterstance, Chakra - they all cause small ammounts of hate you can use if you have to, but usually you won't need anything but the Weapon Skill and Provoke).

I agree. MNK/WAR have a very high rate of damage over time and because of this, they are almost always toeing the line with the tank on who's got more hate. If a MNK/WAR cannot pull hate off with a provoke or WS, that MNK is doing something wrong. I've seen MNKs pull hate with just boost before off of very competant tanks.



With that said, I wouldn't have a provoke macro for MNK. I'd instead have an emergency macro (Somewhere at the end or middle of your macro set) that you can hit just in case you can't pull the mob off the tank when you're in SATA. Too often do I see a MNK use provoke when they didn't mean to and the tank can have a hard time getting back the hate (MP is also drained fast because of this) Although a good PLD can get hate back with a Cure III or IV on the MNK (Which makes me wonder why do PLDs try to cure themselves for hate when the act of curing someone else in the red will grab hate more)

[Hitokami]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Just a quick question to add onto this discussion:
-Is it a priority to have /thf past 30?

The reason I ask this is that currently Im 32/16 with /war. I have my thf up to 17 and I have farmed with it a couple of times and have tried it out in xp parties. The damage was notciably worse (no parser mind you) without berserk, stats, etc. I know the /thf shines past 60 but even then, war seems to be the better sub. I was wonering if It happens often that your party asks you to go /thf for the SATA. I know we are up there in rank near thfs and somewhere near drks but are there any other classes that do better SATA.

I probably will level /thf anyway for farming, I just want to know if it is a need.

[Sepukku]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Just my two cents but Counterstance seems to give more than "a little" amount of hate. I've had it many times where the tank will provoke off of me as I pull hate but my reaction is to hit Counterstance if the mob turns to me. This often causes the mob to turn to the tank for a nanosecond then go back to me after my Counterstance activates.

[aegina]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Just a quick question to add onto this discussion:
-Is it a priority to have /thf past 30?

The reason I ask this is that currently Im 32/16 with /war. I have my thf up to 17 and I have farmed with it a couple of times and have tried it out in xp parties. The damage was notciably worse (no parser mind you) without berserk, stats, etc. I know the /thf shines past 60 but even then, war seems to be the better sub. I was wonering if It happens often that your party asks you to go /thf for the SATA. I know we are up there in rank near thfs and somewhere near drks but are there any other classes that do better SATA.

I probably will level /thf anyway for farming, I just want to know if it is a need.

a thief sub is nice, but not vital. you can last with just your /war sub if you don't like to sub thief

[Larian]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Having THF sub ready at 60+ is indeed not a "must" and you will usually get away without having it leveled. However, on your way to 75 there will most likely be at least one occasion where you wish you had it leveled.
I guess it's a matter of completeness, just like you expect DRK to have both Scythe and GS capped or WAR to have Axe and Greataxe capped.

And on a sidenote:

/ja "Sneak Attack" <me>
/wait 15
/p Sneak Attack at 15!
/wait 15
/p Sneak Attack Ready!

SA/TA recast is 60 seconds, thus you put /wait 30

[Kailo]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

Haha, so it is Sorry for the mistake. Believe it or not, I've been out of game for about 2 and a half months now due to computer problems, so sorry for the mishap. Larian is right though. Just change the /wait 15 to /wait 30 for those lines.

[aegina]

Re: Information on SATA and etc

yes, sneak attack is used every 60 seconds, not every 30.

and to answer the other comment by the op, a monk can pull aggro very easilly with just one weoponskill. the reason is because you are always hitting the mob, and you are drawing a little bit of hate with each hit. Using a weoponskill creates a hate "spike," which can sometimes pull hate.

sata works by placing that hate "spike" from the thf's (or /thf's) weoponskill onto the tank.