STR and ATT

[Gaignum]

im sorry, but i just just dont understand this at all.
STR allows you to obtain your dmg cap more efficently and ATT extends it?

if thats the case, i dont see how that could logically make sense especially when me for example has about +26str with sushi added has like 320ish att.
beserk totals to about 410 att after.
if this is mainly the case, how do you explain the 6 7 800dmg howling fist and raging fist blasts?
regardless on average howling will do about 350-400some damage at 100tp.
the only thing i can make sense of is the possibility of having 300tp when i was getting those numbers, but ive surprised myself before at 100tp.

on a side note, i hear sam and mnk are mainly str based, and that war and drk etc.. are att based, why wouldnt it be the same for both?

all these different calculations and conclusions in this game are driving me bonkers:mad: i just wanna knock the crap outta something in peace ><

[Jei]

there's some equation discussion going on in this thread that might be what you're looking for. Don't ask me what they mean tho I have no idea - -
http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...4&pagenumber=1

[Lmnop]

faster you attack, the more often STR kicks in and the more use you're getting out of it. i.e. a monk's fists. the amount that your attack affects your damage is based off of the base DMG on your weapon. In general, slower weapons have higher base damage and as such, get more benefit from attack.

If these guidelines are at all acurate we'd see:
Attack Oriented
Dark Knight
Dragoon
Samurai
Great Axe- Warrior

Strength Oriented
Monk
Axe-Warrior

Thief would prefer STR over attack for normal damage dealing, but I think SA gets more benefit from attack and of course even more benefit from dex/agi... see thf boards.

Samurai would normally prefer attack gear, but their last 3 or so WS are so heavily STR based, that it means they STR gear for macro'ing on for WS.

Did this help at all or leave someone even more confused...

[zorca]

WS damage can vary alot depending on:
1) did all hits land?
2) did one or more hit being a critical hit?
3) the "secondary ws modifier" which is usually STR or VIT for mnk
4) amount of TP = the primary ws dmg modifier

A general agreement observed by most ppl is that:
1) STR raises your potential damage cap
2) ATK raises your overall damage

So for example, you hit the mob like 20, 25, 15, 30, 20 damage per fist.

With +Str, the damage becomes: 30, 40, 15, 35, 15
With +ATK, it becomes: 30,25,30,30,25

Hope this helps

[Macht]

The thing I constantly see getting mixed is STR raises overall damage and ATK is potential.

You can see this very obviously with just adding 1 STR.

Each time you add 1 STR your damage will increase 1 damage. Each time you add 1 attack your potential raise accordingly, raising attack you do not see as often simply because reaching max potential is only usually obtained through a WS or Critical hits.

Because of the cap on damage figuring out the math on EP or Too Weaks don't always work to well. It is possible to push your Attack potential so high that it becomes unattainable, if that occurs then it's better to start equipping more STR instead of Attack.

If you want to visualize it it's like an upward curve, the closer together the STR and attack it the more frequent you'll hit the damage potential. If you push attack extreemly high the curve becomes extreemly sharp after a certain point going nearly straight up, hitting the peak damage becomes a lot more unlikely.

Now the reason the MNK wants more STR over Attack because H2H gets a double effect from STR then it does from Attack. Since attack is only it's max potential that means each hit has the possibilty of hitting for higher damage, but with STR each hit is guarenteed to hit higher.

If you were to do 1 STR on a job like DRK, SAM, or RNG then the damage extra they get is equally 1 damage. However if you do 1 STR on a job like MNK or NIN then damage extra they get is 2 damage (1 Damage per hand, 1 * 2 (hands) = 2 damage). So that means a MNK with +10 STR each cycle is dealing an extra +20 Damage.

Of course then you have to factor in the monsters VIT and all so it makes this not as obvious. The simple mechanics of overall damage you can see very easily if you fight too weaks or EP, but you can't use them to get an accurate view of potential damage since on them you'll almost always get the max potential you can do to them.

EDIT:

Also keep in mind that supposedly the max potential you can do is also limited by the weapon you use, or at least that's what I recall reading on a previous thread on this forum. Which is more reason to why STR is better for MNKs with their weapons damage ratings being so low they'll cap to their max damage potential with much less attack.

[zorca]

If atk does in fact raises the potential damage, when you have minuet or berserk, why does it give a boost to your overall dmg consistently instead of just a few punches ? Also, what I said is my experience on exp monsters, i never paid too much attention to TW or EP mobs so Macht could be right on those mobs since the conditions (ie: monster's str/def vs your own) are so much different.

Also, as far as I remember, on IT mobs +1str != +1 dmg per fist for sure because at lv60 I switched from o.kote to Pallas which is +9str. It would be easy to see if i was getting +9 dmg consistently.

[kumaeru]

Str = raise cap damage
*yes cap damage is also based on the base damage of you're weapon*

Attack = raise average dmg and making it possible to reach cap damage more often.


There is also that relationship between Str and Attack the whole 2str = 1 attack thing.


The thought that high delay weapons need more +attack because they already have high base damage is correct. However imo having the balance or somewhat balance is still best. Being Drk I've gone for more +str than attack. My low dmg hits are around the same damage as most average drks average hits. And my high damage hits are around 40-50+ dmg more than average drk. Average Drk = hauberk/sniper rings and thick set.

[Macht]

Originally posted by zorca
If atk does in fact raises the potential damage, when you have minuet or berserk, why does it give a boost to your overall dmg consistently instead of just a few punches ? Also, what I said is my experience on exp monsters, i never paid too much attention to TW or EP mobs so Macht could be right on those mobs since the conditions (ie: monster's str/def vs your own) are so much different.

Also, as far as I remember, on IT mobs +1str != +1 dmg per fist for sure because at lv60 I switched from o.kote to Pallas which is +9str. It would be easy to see if i was getting +9 dmg consistently.

It's not that easy actually. When STR pushes overall damage that means at the lowest possible damage you can do it'll be higher. When you have the lowest possible and highest possible close enough together you end up seeing consistent hits of the same number.

So for example say the min possible is 10 damage and the max potential is 70 (Raised from attack). Then the damage you'll do on the monster will be about an average, so it will be 40. Now take away 20 Attack and add 9 STR (9 STR + 4 Attack) So now your min possible is 19 (10 + 9 STR) and your max possible is 54 (70-20+4) so then your average ends up being 36.5

As you see your damage appears to be less but when you measure this against a monster that forces you from your average to your min possible you'll end up seeing 10 damage with no extra STR and 19 with the extra STR.

This goes the same way with max potential but why don't you see a change in damage when you fight too weaks and attack gets past a certain point? That's because you've reached a cap that weapon allows. So say your max potential is at 60 and the weapon caps at 80, when you raise the max potential to 70 you see more damage still, then raise to 80 and see more damage still, but once you got 90 you get the same damage you did in 80, and so on as you raise attack higher.

The factor that doesn't make this appear so linear is that the monsters stats also work against yours readjusting what your max potential and guarenteed (min possible) damage is. That's the part that makes it diffuclty to accuratly measure how effecient you are doing and why switching attack and STR would seem to make such a difference.

EDIT:

Ack, think I skrewed up my math there. The max potential didn't get raised right, got to mess with the numbers again I guess to see what I forgot. I haven't bothered with that math in such a long time I'm forgetting it

[zorca]

When STR pushes overall damage that means at the lowest possible damage you can do it'll be higher. When you have the lowest possible and highest possible close enough together you end up seeing consistent hits of the same number.

So for example say the min possible is 10 damage and the max potential is 70 (Raised from attack). Then the damage you'll do on the monster will be about an average, so it will be 40. Now take away 20 Attack and add 9 STR (9 STR + 4 Attack) So now your min possible is 19 (10 + 9 STR) and your max possible is 54 (70-20+4) so then your average ends up being 36.5

Sorry I still fail to see the validity of your example given above. What you said up there is just some numbers that will fit into your own argument. If I replace STR with ATK in your example and change the number a bit (ie: using the 2str = 1atk relationship), it'll give total opposite result isnt it?

Anyway, my brd is 75 and i have a brd in my static when I play mnk so at this moment I trust my own experience more than those complicated damage approximation formula ppl came up

[Macht]

Originally posted by zorca
Sorry I still fail to see the validity of your example given above. What you said up there is just some numbers that will fit into your own argument. If I replace STR with ATK in your example and change the number a bit (ie: using the 2str = 1atk relationship), it'll give total opposite result isnt it?

Anyway, my brd is 75 and i have a brd in my static when I play mnk so at this moment I trust my own experience more than those complicated damage approximation formula ppl came up

Not sure what you are talking about I'm fairly sure I was including the 2str = 1 atk relationship. That's why I said 9 STR is more like 9STR + 4 attack (9/2 = 4.5). Either way though, not enough explained for me to understand what I'm getting wrong then.

[zorca]

I was saying, I could come up with this example in favour of my argument:

So for example say the min possible is 10 damage and the max potential is 70 (Raised from strength). Then the damage you'll do on the monster will be about an average, so it will be 40. Now take away 9 STR and add 20 ATK (14.5 ATK because 9str = 4.5atk) So now your min possible is 24.5 (10 + 14.5 atk) and your max possible is 61 (70-9) so then your average ends up being 42.5

From the above, I just modified your example by merely replacing the word "STR" to "ATK" and changing the corresponding number to make it support that ATK raises the overall damage instead of the max potential damage.

In short, your given example doenst really support your argument

[Macht]

Originally posted by zorca
I was saying, I could come up with this example in favour of my argument:

So for example say the min possible is 10 damage and the max potential is 70 (Raised from strength). Then the damage you'll do on the monster will be about an average, so it will be 40. Now take away 9 STR and add 20 ATK (14.5 ATK because 9str = 4.5atk) So now your min possible is 24.5 (10 + 14.5 atk) and your max possible is 61 (70-9) so then your average ends up being 42.5

From the above, I just modified your example by merely replacing the word "STR" to "ATK" and changing the corresponding number to make it support that ATK raises the overall damage instead of the max potential damage.

In short, your given example doenst really support your argument

Lol, I see. But ATK is not factored directly to DEF, if you go against monster like mandragora in E. Saruta and raise attack you'll notice your damage make no change. So ATK - DEF is false and you can't caluclate it that way for guarenteed damage or min possible.

STR - VIT is accurate though, since you can raise 1 STR (without altering attack) and still get 1 damage extra. That means STR factors your min possible damage, or guarenteed damage, or base.

After the base is determined the potential damaged is added on top to it. If ATK and DEF are equal or if ATK is less then DEF then no potential damage is added and the damage you are getting is then basically just straight out of guarenteed damage. That's basically why when players fight a monster like Genbu the physical damage is so small, that small number is basically their guarenteed damage.

EDIT:

That would mean then a RNG using Piercing Arrow which probably 300% TP should see a big difference in damage against a monster like Genbu. Something I haven't been able to try yet, but planning to eventually

[LordBiGGs]

is it just me or do most of these theories completely ignore the mobs/tanks vit and def? i'm curious what happened to vit matching against str and attack matching against def. as def passes attack its effects are diminished, which is why boosting def passed a certain point is useless. i'm guessing it works the same way in reverse, once attack passes def is starts to get dimishing effects.

vit on the other hand doesnt diminish. so boosting vit as much as possible keep gaining effects, just like the reverse, str.

since mobs are well rounded for the most part, they have moderate def, attack, str and vit. so tanks can surpass the mobs attack since we have such high def, meaning at later lvl's def becomes less valuable, very true. same with attack.

any other old school players remember all this? i know i've seen damage equations which support the theory that attack and str work seperately to come to one damage total. i feel this is a lot easier to see as a tank.

[Lmnop]

is it just me or do most of these theories completely ignore the mobs/tanks vit and def? i'm curious what happened to vit matching against str and attack matching against def. as def passes attack its effects are diminished, which is why boosting def passed a certain point is useless. i'm guessing it works the same way in reverse, once attack passes def is starts to get dimishing effects.

I think you make an accurate statement. From my experiences, higher defense mobs (like crabs) really aren't that hard for a STR-based mnk while high Vit mobs (mandies are monk type == high VIT, low def) are actually harder cuz their high VIT reduces every swing's damage by a fair margin.

of course, you'll take this as a grain of salt because I don't give sufficient data but then if I took the time would anyone read it...