Does ATK cap out?

[Username2]

Hi I got a weird question
Yesterday I was in a party(44-46) with a bard.
I was the only one eating kabobs.
Im a monk/war and I was using zerk+boost.
It "seemed" to me like the brd attack song did nothing for me.
The people in the party that didnt eat food (2 drk's) got alot of damage out of the song.
So I was just wondering, can I only do so much damage per lvl? or is +ATK is only effective to certin point?
Everything was IT low Def to me with just food and berzerk, and maybe that was the reason.

Just wondering.

[Lone Dragon]

You can only boost your attack by so much before it starts becoming pointless.
If this is the problem I think it is, just boost your str by as much as possible...and try to remember that you're a taru. :x

"Not galka mage bad, more like elvaan WHM bad..."

[foolishloveless]

as far as i know dmg done is on a range based on your str vs def of the enemy. attack raises or lowers based on that curve. so raising attack does have a cap in max dmg, while raising str raises that curve. correct me if wrong

[Username2]

I have +26 STR :spin:

[Mithrael]

There are two caps on attack.

1.) Attack=999

2.) A more practical cap of (Attack/Defense)*Unknown+random(+/- .5) = 2

You'll never under any circumstances reach condition 2 against an I.T. leveling mob.

----

STR universally raises damage by 1 point per STR until STR-VIT=24 + 3 * floor(Weapon DMG / 9). It's entirely feasible to reach this cap against an I.T. leveling monster, though less likely as a Tarutaru MNK than for an Elvaan DRK.

Technically, boosting attack never becomes pointless. If you do the math on it, it's an upward rising curve. While adding to defense approaches the straigh horizontal (diminishing gains), adding to attack approaches the straight vertical (until the cap, which you'll never ever reach on a leveling mob, period). Each point of attack is more effective than the point before.

The basic confusion here is that attack/defense sets the curve. STR raises that curve linearly in increments of 1. Eventually the weapon DMG cap comes into play, which completely removes any additional benefit of STR. The curve is redrawn each swing of your fist or weapon, as there is a random +/- .5 component.

--

Now, the reason that you didn't see a huge difference with the song is that your weapon damage as a MNK is siginificantly lower than that of a DRK, SAM, WAR, DRG, etc. i.e. at lv.45, your base weapon damage is
3 + floor(138 / 10) + 10 (assuming you have the strongest weapon available at lv.45) = 26, while a DRK will have a base weapon damage of 68, a WAR with 67, a SAM with 58, and DRG with 61. (Attack/defense * 26) is a smaller gain than (attack/defense * 60). I'm sure if you parsed it all out though, you did do significantly more damage over time, it just doesn't look as obvious on MNK, 1-2 dmg up to 5 times per 5 seconds becomes a very large number ovet the course of an hour.

Anyway, since you're limited by your weapon more than any other job (thief too, but to a much smaller extent due to sneak/trick attack), STR will have a more profound affect on your total output until you reach the magic cap. Once you get there, only adding attack will increase your damage.

[sourjirou]

read this hope it will answer ur question.
http://ffxi.crgaming.com/interviews...view.asp?Id=209

[Aeynrieus]

Originally posted by Mithrael
<snip>

This is great information, but I'm having a little trouble understanding the formula. Could you give an example between a level 40 Elvaan Monk with Mythril Knuckles +1 (+10 for 25 DMG total including base damage from HtH skill) and +20 STR, and any other melee job, such as a Dark Knight?

Thanks.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Originally posted by Mithrael
There are two caps on attack.

STR universally raises damage by 1 point per STR until STR-VIT=24 + 3 * floor(Weapon DMG / 9). It's entirely feasible to reach this cap against an I.T. leveling monster, though less likely as a Tarutaru MNK than for an Elvaan DRK.

Technically, boosting attack never becomes pointless. If you do the math on it, it's an upward rising curve. While adding to defense approaches the straigh horizontal (diminishing gains), adding to attack approaches the straight vertical (until the cap, which you'll never ever reach on a leveling mob, period). Each point of attack is more effective than the point before.

Are you just making an analogy of defense, or are you saying that ATT and DEF have some inverse relationship?

Originally posted by Mithrael

The basic confusion here is that attack/defense sets the curve. STR raises that curve linearly in increments of 1. Eventually the weapon DMG cap comes into play, which completely removes any additional benefit of STR. The curve is redrawn each swing of your fist or weapon, as there is a random +/- .5 component.

--

Now, the reason that you didn't see a huge difference with the song is that your weapon damage as a MNK is siginificantly lower than that of a DRK, SAM, WAR, DRG, etc. i.e. at lv.45, your base weapon damage is
3 + floor(138 / 10) + 10 (assuming you have the strongest weapon available at lv.45) = 26, while a DRK will have a base weapon damage of 68, a WAR with 67, a SAM with 58, and DRG with 61. (Attack/defense * 26) is a smaller gain than (attack/defense * 60). I'm sure if you parsed it all out though, you did do significantly more damage over time, it just doesn't look as obvious on MNK, 1-2 dmg up to 5 times per 5 seconds becomes a very large number ovet the course of an hour.

Anyway, since you're limited by your weapon more than any other job (thief too, but to a much smaller extent due to sneak/trick attack), STR will have a more profound affect on your total output until you reach the magic cap. Once you get there, only adding attack will increase your damage.

:sweat: :sweat: :sweat: :sweat: :sweat: :sweat:

Want to run that by me in laymen's terms? I'm not what you would call a "mathematical mind". I'm trying to understand this so that I can apply it to equipment selection and the like... if you could apply it to a practical example I'd greatly appreciate it

But basically you're saying that for MNKs, who have low damaging weapons, we need more STR to bring us closer to the cap, whereas other high-delay weapons have a more limited use for STR?

[Mithrael]

Ok, lost post ahoi!

There are two parts of the damage equation.

This information is from:
http://www.moonlight.gr.jp/~el/ffxi/ab_calc.html.en

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Part 1

Your STR - Enemy's VIT

This is the easy one. Each point of STR adds exactly one DMG to your output. This number CAN be negative, so you can actually subtract from your total output if your STR is too low, or if a mob uses a STR Down ability. Every swing durring a battle will have the same base damage as long as you do not gain or lose STR, and the mob does not gain or lose VIT. There is no random component.

There is a limit to how much damage you can add in this manner. It is:

[CODE]
24 + 3 x floor(Your weapon damage / 9 )
[/CODE]

floor() just means drop the decimal and do not round up even if it the number is .999... Also, notice that your maximum "Base damage" is NOT affected by STR or Attack. STR can help you reach your maximum base damage, but the maximum is set ONLY by your weapon (and Hand-to-hand skill for mnk, see below).

If you are a MNK, your weapon damage is based on your Hand-to-hand skill, and your weapon is added to that. (You've noticed that your weapon says DMG:+10 instead of DMG:10). The equation for your base damage (without a weapon equipped) is:

3 + floor(Your Hand-to-hand skill / 10)

So, at lv.45, your Hand-to-hand skill is 138. Wearing Mythril Knuckles +1, your weapon damage is:

[CODE]
3 + floor(138 / 10) + 10 = 26
[/CODE]

Your maximum damage added for the first part of the equation is:

[CODE]
24 + 3 x floor(26 / 9) = 30
[/CODE]

For a DRK at lv.45, weilding the Raven Scythe, the maximum base damage is:

[CODE]
24 + 3 x floor(68 / 9) = 45
[/CODE]

Basically, try to imagine a scenario where you might meet this cap. If you're wearing STR+26 (Username2) and eat a mithkabob, your STR will be roughly 31 points higher than a beastman black mage class enemy. If you use the elemental enfeeble spells to reduce the enemy's VIT, or the Absorb-VIT spell, this is even easier to accomplish. At this point, no amount of STR will increase your damage.


-----

Part 2

[CODE]Weapon Damage * Rate[/CODE]

Weapon damage is obvious, it's what your weapon says, or in the case of monk, it's the formula above (26 for lv.45 MNK with mythril claws +1, 68 for a DRK with a raven scythe).

Rate takes a lot of explaining.

[CODE]
Rate = Centered Damage + random(-5...+5)
[/CODE]

Rate cannot be lower than 0. Rate cannot be higher than 2, no matter how high your attack gets.

What's centered damage? That's where attack comes into play:

[CODE]
(Your attack / Enemy's Defense) x Unknown
[/CODE]

Unknown... well, it's unknown, but the author guesses:

[CODE]
(Your attack / Enemy's Defense) x (Your attack / Enemy's Defense)
[/CODE]

This actually seems pretty accurate. It's definitely close enough to give you a quick and dirty feel for what a weapon or equipment upgrade has to offer...

Boiling down the second part of the equation to it's simplest form:

[CODE]
Your Weapon Damage * {(Your attack / Enemy's Defense) *
[(Your attack / Enemy's Defense) * (Your attack / Enemy's Defense)] + random(-.5...+.5)}
[/CODE]

The rest is just easier to show with a chart than write out all of the math.

For simplicity, this chart shows Part 1 as always being the Maximum Base Damage (30 for MNK, 45 for DRK). The numbers on the bottom of the chart represent the possible outcomes of the whole second half of the equation. This example does not show how attack affects damage yet, simple what damage is possible from a given weapon.



So the whole point of that chart is to show that Weapon DMG plays a larger role in damage output than STR or Attack (But that's kinda obvious, right?) It also shows that as the range increases, the difference between weapons increases too.



This chart shows how each point of attack becomes increasingly important, while each point of defense becomes decreasingly important.

For this chart, Part 1 of the equation is still fixed, i'll use that Maximum Base Damage again for consistency. The Enemy's Defense will remain static at 150 (just a basic even number . The random component is always 0. The numbers along the Bottom are your attack relative to the Enemy's Defense, and run from 0 (rate = 0) to 250 (rate = 2).



This chart shows what the original poster saw. The damage curve for a higher damage weapon is steeper than the the damage curve for a lower damage weapon. That means the difference between average and max damage for monks is smaller than DRK, SAM, DRG. This chart also shows that each addition point of attack has greater benefit than the last...

Yes, you can theoretically "cap out" your attack against an IT mob, but your attack would have to be roughly 3x that of the mob's defense to ensure that the -.5 random component doesn't bite you in the ass. Even as a Lv.70+ DRK (who has the highest innate attack) with all of the pimp Attack+ gear will never reach 3x an IT mob's defense.

-----

Notice: I'm not making any statements about who does more damage per second, nor am I trying to say anything about which melee is better or stronger. The point of this is only to show the affect of STR, Attack, and weapon choice on your total damage output. Damage per second is a whole other topic, and a lot messier because you have to consider accuracy.

Conclusion and answer to Ipwnzuall!!!111:
Defense isn't exactly inverse to attack. It's just that once you get to the point that the enemy's attack=your defense (Rate = 1), any additional defense has negliglble returns. Once your attack=enemy's defense, additional attack is more and more helpful! To ensure that you're occasionally reaching your full potential, you'd want your Attack to be about 1.5 times the enemy's defense. That's not likely to happen, so you at least want the enemy to con "Low Defense," which should keep your average rate just above 1.0.

A MNK's goal is good sustained damage, so STR is very important, but you cannot neglect Attack. Once you reach the point your STR+ is equal to the maximum base damage (from part 1), adding anymore STR is pointless. This is why the Kote are godly.



I'm working on an app to compare and graph two weapon choices, but it's still relatively early in its design. I'll post a link somewhere in the forums when I finish it.

[Username2]

O_o Wow Your good
Thanks for the Great info.

[Lone Dragon]

Do those charts take into account that Monk attacks twice (so, if all goes well, the floor is really X + X for monk)?
If not, did you exclude it to keep it simple?

[Mithrael]

1st thing:
I made 1 tiny mistake that doesn't change any of the graphs. I only bring it up because I stated it wrong in the last bit.

Your CENTER max is 2 AND your RATE max is 2. So you can never under any circumstances guarantee that you'd do maximum damage per hit. the best you can do is be certain that your whole second part of the equation comes out to 2 before the +/- .5 random is figured in, which is still practically impossible.

2nd:
Both charts shows per hit, not per turn. I excluded the second hit for clarity since the point was to show what a stat does to each individual strike. So yes, in thoery, you could multiply the MNK part of the graph by 4 to represent double attack kicking in on both hits, then add whatever the equation for kick is to that (kick seems to be independant of this formula, and I have no idea what determines kick damage) to get the "Perfect world" view of your output with any given weapon.

[Lone Dragon]

Adding DA and Kick wouldn't be fair.
Even though it happens pretty often for us, it's still random.
I believe Kick damage counts as a bare-handed attack (skill lvl / 10, no added damage from weapon.)

I just asked so a person who misread it wouldn't think we always do less damage than Drks during the span of a fight.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Now I think I'm understanding this :D

Thank you, Mith, that was a very informative post/paper/dissertation.

And this verifies what I've heard elsewhere-- that you need a balance of STR and ATT to achieve your highest damage rate, rather than powerloading one or the other.

So based on this, what would you recommend when selecting equipment? I would think that the highest DMG weapon would be a definite, regardless of delay (within reason), but from my understanding, that also raises your STR cap, correct? So what would be next: trying to achieve as near to your STR cap as reasonably possible even at the loss of ATT, or would you attempt to maintain a balance throughout? It's so much fun to try to determine the best combination of equipment :spin:

Great info-- I would like to see it stickied

[Mithrael]

As a mnk you're range of power is much smaller than a 2-hander. From attack/defense = 0 all the way up to your max of attack/defense = 2, your range about doubles. So I'd say pump up STR until your STR+ is equal to your base damage cap (the first part of the equation). Consistent damage is key for MNK. Even if your attack/defense = 0, it doesn't subtract from your output, but if STR-VIT is negative, it does.

Since 2-handers have a huge range of attack power (roughly 4x) they need to pimp attack. DRK and WAR already have higher STR than the others anyway, so it's less concern to them. As a SAM or DRG, balance between the two is definitely more crucial.

As far as equipment goes, Highest damage weapon within reason of delay AND you have decent accuracy. I said it before I knew all of this, and still stand by it; I'm not sure than DMG:+2 is worth it if your accuracy suffers. Even damage+6 can only offer you about 15 extra damage per hit, and that's only assuming you cap out every hit (a statistical improbability).