federation kyahan vs Fuma kyahan

[Bosco]

Three attacks out of a hundred is not noticeable and it certainly won't equal any sort of meaningful damage increase. 1-2 damage on every hit you land will however.

1-2 damage on a 100 hits would only be another 100-200 damage, which is pretty insignificant. If anything go for the haste, ladies love a hasted melee~

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Another thing definately worth noting:

3% haste does not equal 3% more damage

3% haste, at best, means that you squeeze three more attacks in
every 100 hits. Depending on your accuracy, these could be as many as three misses easily. What this means very simply, is that you get one extra attack for about every 33 hits. Assuming that you land 33 hits against an xp mob (sounds likely enough), you still won't get that next "free hit" until the 66th attack, and the "timer" resets as soon as the mob dies, so even if the first mob dies on your 50th hit, you still start at 0 on the next mob.

In short, 3% haste will only yield 3 more swings after you land 100 hits in the same battle.

Attack, on the other hand, becomes more valuable the more you add, as you'll find mentioned in several other threads in this forum. Assuming you already have a good bit of attack, it's safe to say that another +4 might bump you up to another damage a hit. Even if that's only half true, consider how much damage you
average on a hit to an IT mob... if it's more than 33, then that hypothetical +1 damage from the +4 attack yields less that 3% haste. Also keep in mind that you might recieve a bonus to every attack for the +attack, so if you did land 50 hits when the mob died, you might have dealt 50 more damage, as opposed to only getting the effect of one extra attack (so in that case, if you hit for less than 50 damage a hit, the +ATT would be the way to go)

Figure it out.

Personally, I'd probably go with the +ATT.

[JayblahX]

So are you saying that in a typical XP grind where each individual monster will unlikely receive 100+ hits from a Monk, the +ATK is better?

I suppose the +Haste is superior when you battle high-HP monsters with prolonged fights (NMs, HNMs, etc.) in which you will deliver well over 100+ attacks on one target, then?

I used to own Fed. Kyahan but sold them for Fumas. This is an interesting thread but now I'm somewhat confused as to which is more useful. :mad:

[Kaizoku Lite]

There is no "timer" for when you get a free hit.

3 percent haste means that you multiply your total delay by .97. For example, lets say you have brown belt and fumas.

You multiply your delay by .89.

Example: Delay 400 x .89 = 356 delay.

You don't "lose" anything if you hit 50 times, or if you hit it 60 times... the Haste is always on. Saying it's just 3 extra hits for every 100 is over-simplifying it.

If each of your hits is above 33 damage [if it isn't, go kill yourself now] the fumas will do more for you. But I would keep the federation around to macro in for WS. ^_^

[Mikeb]

Obviously math isn't the strong suit of many... 3 percent haste means everything is sped up, 3 percent more hits equals 3 percent more damage over a prolonged period of time. True, in 1 fight you might miss those 3 extra hits, or the mob might block a few, etc... But if you take the average of 10,000,000 + hits (to weed out the luck factor), you will be doing ~3 percent more damage as opposed to not having the haste.

With attack, it brings you closer to your maximum potential damage which is determined by your STR stat compared to the mob's VIT stat. For Monks, the variance is lower than say a Drk or Drg, since our attacks are lower damage. After eating Mithkabobs (+21 percent ATK), and using berserk (+20 percent I think it is...), thats going to boost our damage an easy 100 points. That's already getting pretty close to our potential, and you're going to get somewhat diminishing returns. +104 attack likely won't make any difference over +100 attack at this point (the damage added per hit will be between 0-1 damage - likely closer to 0. On Weapon skills it might make 5 damage difference - but then again Boost adds more attack for weapon skills, plus with the haste you're going to be getting TP quicker - haste is NOT minus delay - it's HASTE - just like the spell).

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Ipwnzuall!!!111
Another thing definately worth noting:

3% haste does not equal 3% more damage

(some explanation that made no sense)

In effect, 3% haste does equal roughly 3% more damage (assuming that 3% haste is applied to overall attack rate equation).

Example being that, say in 10 minutes you attack 100 times. 3% haste would then mean 103 attacks in that 10 minutes. Sure, those 3 'extra' attacks might miss, but averaging everything out in the long term would undoubtedly yield a 3% increase in damage output.

Of course, I have no idea how that 3% haste really ties in to the attack speed equation

[Kaizoku Lite]

"Of course, I have no idea how that 3% haste really ties in to the attack speed equation"

If you have 3% Haste, you would multiply your delay by .97

So, lets say I want to figure out my delay at lv 45 [Martial Arts IV] Delay = 340 + 91 [Mythril Knuckles +1]

Delay = 431 x .89 = 383.59

So, at lv 45 using Mythril Knuckles +1 and Fuma Kyahan + Brown Belt, my delay is 383.59 [191.795 per fist]

Edit: Yes, it's true that 3% Haste will give you 3% more damage over time.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Uhhh... no.

What 3% haste means basically is that your attacks will come 3% faster. Roughly every 33 attacks, you will have made up enough time that you execute another attack without time penalty.

Basically, with haste+3%, 33 attacks= 34 attacks.

It is time, so it does occur in intervals . If you aren't in the battle long enough, it doesn't matter if you attack faster, because you truthfully won't see many more attacks than without the haste.

The main benefit of haste is that because you attack faster, you hit more often. 3%, however, doesn't make you hit that more often, only once more for every 33 attacks. It's up to you to determine if one extra attack that occurs during the time it takes to execute 33 attacks is > or < the +att. It's still 3% more damage, yes. In other words, it's not 1% for the first 33, then another for the next, and another for the next.

That said, there IS a time and it DOES RESET as far as this question is concerned. Once you execute that 34th attack, you are back where you started, you have reaped the benefits of your +haste, and it is time to start the cycle again. You will not gain any more benefits from +haste until the next 33 attacks have occurred. If they don't occur, that extra hit that was supposed to come faster doesn't either.

That is the essence of haste.

This is not a cut and dry mathematical way to determine this, it's just a common-sense guide to figure out which is more worthwhile. The point being, you only gain 3 more attacks for every 100 you make. If you make 34 attacks, congratulations, you got an extra attack= more damage over time. If you make 65 attacks, too bad, you still only got the one extra attack. You didn't quite make it before the mob died.

Edit: So, 3% haste can possibly, ideally, give you 3% more damage. The longer the battle, the closer you will come to making this true. My guess, however, is that this is rarely the case. It will more often probably add 1-2% more damage.

[Kaizoku Lite]

"Uhhh... no.

What 3% haste means basically is that your attacks will come 3% faster. Roughly every 33 attacks, you will have made up enough time that you execute another attack without time penalty.

Basically, with haste+3%, 33 attacks= 34 attacks.

It is time, so it does occur in intervals . If you aren't in the battle long enough, it doesn't matter if you attack faster, because you truthfully won't see many more attacks than without the haste.

The main benefit of haste is that because you attack faster, you hit more often. 3%, however, doesn't make you hit that more often, only once more for every 33 attacks. It's up to you to determine if one extra attack that occurs during the time it takes to execute 33 attacks is > or < the +att. It's still 3% more damage, yes. In other words, it's not 1% for the first 33, then another for the next, and another for the next.

That said, there IS a time and it DOES RESET as far as this question is concerned. Once you execute that 34th attack, you are back where you started, you have reaped the benefits of your +haste, and it is time to start the cycle again. You will not gain any more benefits from +haste until the next 33 attacks have occurred. If they don't occur, that extra hit that was supposed to come faster doesn't either.

That is the essence of haste.

This is not a cut and dry mathematical way to determine this, it's just a common-sense guide to figure out which is more worthwhile. The point being, you only gain 3 more attacks for every 100 you make. If you make 34 attacks, congratulations, you got an extra attack= more damage over time. If you make 65 attacks, too bad, you still only got the one extra attack. You didn't quite make it before the mob died.

Edit: So, 3% haste can possibly, ideally, give you 3% more damage. The longer the battle, the closer you will come to making this true. My guess, however, is that this is rarely the case. It will more often probably add 1-2% more damage."

No, you are wrong.

Haste DOES NOT HAVE A TIMER.

I pointed out the math before. Here it is again.

"If you have 3% Haste, you would multiply your delay by .97

So, lets say I want to figure out my delay at lv 45 [Martial Arts IV] Delay = 340 + 91 [Mythril Knuckles +1]

Delay = 431 x .89 = 383.59

So, at lv 45 using Mythril Knuckles +1 and Fuma Kyahan + Brown Belt, my delay is 383.59 [191.795 per fist]

Edit: Yes, it's true that 3% Haste will give you 3% more damage over time."

So, lets go over this again. 340 + 91 = 431

431/2 =215.5

With Haste equip 191.795 vs. without Haste equip 215.5.

THAT IS AN 11% ADVANTAGE AT ALL TIMES.

Again, Haste is always on. Always.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Kaizoku, you seem to misunderstand what I'm saying.

Obviously, there is no real timer on haste, but in practical terms, there is. It is incredibly simple.

If haste increases the speed of attacks by 3%, then every 100 attacks, you will gain 3 more, 2 more for every 66, and 1 for every 33, so forth and so on. Likewise, 6 extra attacks will occur for every 200. This is mathematically indisputable. You gain 3% more attacks if you attack 3% faster.

HOWEVER. We are dealing with TIME. Essentially, with haste +3%, every 33 attacks becomes 34 attacks. It is as simple as that. But because this is time, it doesn't happen all at once. It's not 3% more damage on every attack, right? No, it speeds up the attacks so that you get 3% more of them.

But you don't always get 3% more. You CAN get 3% more, but it is more likely that you won't. The reason is, again, incredibly simple.

If, with haste, 33 attacks= 34 attacks, and you attack the mob, let's say 50 times, then did you do 3% more damage? No, you did not. You got ONE extra attack, meaning 49 attacks= 50 attacks= NOT a 3% increase. Fetch you calculator if you need to, but 1 is not 3% of 50. It is 3% of 33.

So, if you can't understand with a simple explanation like that why haste+3% is not always +3% damage, then you are simply a lost cause, and can either take my word for it, or screw yourself on your equips.

In regards to the original question, the more haste you have, the more likely you are to reach the potential, and gain the maximum number of extra attacks. Likewise, +attack only becomes more effective as you add more of it. Either way, it is suggested that you choose one and focus with it if you wish to see the best results.

So, I again say, Haste+3% will not always give you 3% more damage. It simply will not. Attacks either happen, or they don't. In the cases where they don't happen, you don't get the gain. Very simple.

[PhoR]

Originally posted by Arkadya
it's better to hit hard than it is to hit fast like a sissy.

more hits = more TP = more skillchains = more magic bursts = more overall party dmg. <------ more important than personal dmg.

and on a side note Stanislav posted this in the thf forums, I thought it was neat and so I pass it on.

http://stanislav.org/videos/thief/thief_speed.wmv

[Toede]

nice, but you also gotta remeber the thief has triple attack, thats where a lot of the attacks came from it seems.

[Arkadya]

Originally posted by PhoR


more hits = more TP = more skillchains = more magic bursts = more overall party dmg. <------ more important than personal dmg.

and on a side note Stanislav posted this in the thf forums, I thought it was neat and so I pass it on.

http://stanislav.org/videos/thief/thief_speed.wmv

Your tp doesn't generate more skillchains. Seeing as how monks (and ninjas) are the only people that can load up on haste, just because you yourself are generating tp doesn't mean there are more skillchains. I have no haste and I have no trouble at all keeping up with sam's or rng's straight up (ignoring meditate and barrage, which no amount of haste in the game would let you keep up with anyway). And you'd only average ~18-24 more tp than a non hasted monk. Big deal. You might generate an extra 10 more damage on raging fists, which would be there anyway with the lifebelt and some str or atk increasing boots instead.

As an aside, if skillchain damage was realy the be all and end all, thieves would be far far more prominent than they are.

[Mikeb]

To Ipwnzuall...

3 percent haste IS 3 percent more DAMAGE OVER TIME. Of course haste isn't going to give more damage per hit, but it will give you more hits, more TP, and in the end (after factoring out random elements), you WILL get 3 percent more damage. It's that simple. (It's just like the haste spell, except a little less)

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Originally posted by Mikeb
To Ipwnzuall...

3 percent haste IS 3 percent more DAMAGE OVER TIME. Of course haste isn't going to give more damage per hit, but it will give you more hits, more TP, and in the end (after factoring out random elements), you WILL get 3 percent more damage. It's that simple. (It's just like the haste spell, except a little less)

Read my last post again, and if you still don't see why you won't always get 3% more damage, then go ahead and keep telling yourself that. There's potential for 3% more damage, but you will almost never reach that.

If you still don't understand why that thinking is wrong, I don't know how else to explain it to you, and you can either take my word for it, or just be wrong out of ignorance.