Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[TBoTB]

I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

[Bosco]

Warrior is the only sj a monk should bring to a group for the first 60 levels. Everything else is gimp, it might work... but warrior is far and away the best. Why?

1) no other sj grants provoke
2) attack bonus, double attack and beserk make warrior the best +damage SJ a monk could take
3) defender and defense bonus allow monks to tank better then any other SJ would.

So a warrior sj makes a monk a better damage dealer (main job priority) and a secondary tank (the other reason a group wants you). Anything else (thf for TH or WHM for healing or brd for one song) would be VERY situational, and out of the norm.

After 60, Samurai might be ok, with meditate a 60/30+ mnk/sam can do alot of WS's, but your gonna need a hella tank to keep agro off you.

[Frarinalga]

Pros:
Warrior:
Double attack greatly improves damage output for monks, as they hit quick and often. Double attack will spend things up even fruther ^^
Provoke grants you the ability to save a mages ass, and help pull aggro from the tank if a thief needs to trick off a tank.
Berserk makes you even more badass.
Defender for dire situations.
Attack bonus and Defense bonus

Thief:
Sneak attack allows you to do a high damage blow...
Trick at 60 brings limited aggro control in tricking off another melee or the tank.
Treasure finder and flee. Enough said.

Samurai:
TP king at 60. TP TP TP.

Red/Black/White Mage:
Pros: _______

[logii]

just wondering

i was wondering what kind of damage output a mnk/thf would do with sneak/trick/asuran fist?

[Honorforall]

I am a lvl 8 Monk and I am really enjoying the game thus far, especially the party aspect of it all. But I didnt know what sub job was correct for me when i reached lvl 18 and do u guys think that a MNK/WAR is hands down the best, cause I wanted to start training a WAR if that is true. Thanks

[iglak]

methinks it's time for a long post.

MONK: heavy damage over time damage dealer; possible main tank; good backup tank

SUBJOBS:
WARRIOR- standard, good 0-75, best 50-75
high VIT, DEX, and STR
-10/5, Provoke: good for taking hate if tanking, backup tanking, or just saving someone or your party's life by luring a mob away.
-20/10, Defense Bonus: slightly helpful when tanking or backup tanking....
-30/15, Berserk: good when not tanking, adds approximately 2-4 damage per hit.
-50/25, Double attack: VERY helpful, biggest reason to sub war. with kick at mnk51, average 2.75-3 hits per attack.
-60/30, Attack Bonus: deals slightly more damage....
-70/35, War Cry: attack power up for party, always helpful.

THIEF- not very good, best 60-75
less STR and VIT than WAR, but slightly more DEX... meh.
-20/10, Evasion Bonus I: helpful for dodging one or two attacks if you get hate
-30/15, Sneak Attack: one critical hit... woo.... this might add 30 damage to a weaponskill.
-60/30, Trick Attack: addad damage to each hit in the next attack. this adds quite a bit of damage to monk's multi-hit weaponskills.

WHITE MAGE- viable 0-30
less STR, VIT, and DEX than war (not noticable levels 0-30, but after that...)
-1/1, Cure I: expect very little use in a party, but very helpful in an emergency. MNKs have naturally high MND, cures will heal for a good amount, capping at a low level.
-6/3, Dia: excellent pulling tool. other party members SHOULD have ranged attacks, but that is often not the case.
-all levels, Enfeebles: low enfeebling skill, don't expect anything to work.
-all levels, Enhancing: bar-ra spells are nice and often not used by low level WHMs. protectra, however, will be useless (WHMs always use it).
-22/11, Cure II: expect very little use in a party, but very helpful in an emergency. MNKs have naturally high MND, cures will heal for a good amount (mithra mnk24/whm12 cured for about 80 hp, with no -MND gear).
-higher levels, same-old same-old: nothing worth mentioning, nothing new
-50/25, Auto-Regen: might be ok... not helpful in dealing damage though.

RED MAGE- good 32-50
fairly good STR, VIT, and DEX, worse than WAR though
-1/1, Dia: read WHM sub
-6/3, Cure I: read WHM sub
-all, enfeebles: read WHM sub
-32/16, Enthunder: low skill level, so this will only add 0-4 damage per hit, but it will work for every hit. 12 mp = healing for one tick = -10 TP
-36/18, Enstone: see "Enthunder"
-40/20, Enaero: see "Enthunder"
-44/22, Enblizzrd: see "Enthunder"
-48/24, Enfire: see "Enthunder"
-Crawlers are weak to thunder.
-nothing else worth mentioning

DRAGOON- viable 0-30
-1/1, Attack Bonus: deals slightly more damage....
-20/10, Jump: one extra attack every 90 seconds, fairly good.
-60/30, Accuracy Bonus: slightly better accuracy....
-70/35, High Jump: see "Jump"

SAMURAI- viable 0-70, but not recommended
-20/10, 60/30, Store TP: one extra TP per attack... not that great. monks gain TP fast anyway, and you will be expected to be in the Skillchain.
-30/15, Third Eye: one free evade, not very helpful.
-60/30, Meditate: 60 TP in 3 seconds. can be useful if party has 3+ magic bursters and another SAM or /SAM, otherwise it's a waste.


all other subs... no, you would be missing WAY too much.

[modnar]

Just an addition to the RED MAGE sub:

You get ALL these spells at lvl 50 Monk:
RDM lvl 1-5:
Dia
Cure
Stone
Poison
Barstone

RDM 6-10:
Paralyze
Protect
Barsleep
Blind
Water
Barwater
Bio
Barpoison

RDM 11-15:
Bind
Aquaveil
Barparalyze
Slow
Baraero
Aero
Cure II
Diaga
Deodorize

RDM 16-20:
Enthunder
Shell
Barfire
Silence
Barblind
Enstone
Fire
Sneak
Enaero
Blazing Spikes

RDM 21-25:
Gravity
Barblizzard
Regen
Enblizzard
Blink
Barsilence
Blizzard
Enfire
Sleep
Barthunder
Invisible


Out of these, the useful ones would be:
Cure (8 MP)
Protect (9 MP)
Cure II (24 MP)
Deodorize (10 MP)
Shell (18 MP)
En-spells (12 MP)
Sneak (12 MP)
Blazing Spikes (8 MP)
Regen (15 MP)
Blink (20 MP)
Invisible (15 MP)

What I mean by useful is that these spells will stick (will not be resisted) because of having half of the RDM magic skills. Others will be more likely to be resisted.

At lvl 50 MNK/ 25 RDM: (/WAR for comparison)
HP: 1014 (1040)
MP: 82 (0)
STR: 48 (51)
DEX: 51 (52)
VIT: 54 (54)
AGI: 39 (40)
INT: 37 (35)
MND: 46 (44)
CHR: 42 (42)

So you would have 82 MP to cast the 'useful' spells listed above.

You can either cast Cure 10 times (300 HP) or Blink 4 times (4 x damage taken = depends on mob) and Protect/Shell, to make up the "loss" of the 26 HP from subbing WAR.

You have the En-spells and Blaze Spikes to cast to make up the loss of 3 STR and 1 DEX.

And you have Sneak, Deodorize, and Invisible, to hide when you just don't want any trouble (which can't be done by sub WAR).


If you ask me, MNK/RDM is a VERY GOOD/EXCELLENT (if not the best) choice when soloing.

/THF would compete with it for Farming Purposes.


___________
Edit:
@ lv 75 MNK / 37 RDM
Phalanx (21 MP)
Stoneskin (29 MP)

Even more reasons to celebrate I guess. But I am not going to say I actualy know this because I am not that high.

[Timoham]

Originally posted by iglak
DRAGOON- viable 0-30
-1/1, Attack Bonus: deals slightly more damage....
-20/10, Jump: one extra attack every 90 seconds, fairly good.
-60/30, Accuracy Bonus: slightly better accuracy....
-70/35, High Jump: see "Jump"

If you really wanted the + accuracy of a job, you should go with /RNG. The +acc job trait of RNG applies to ranged and melee.

I levelled MNK to 30 before quitting for RNG but I feel pretty confident saying that /WAR is the best subjob for a monk for provoke, extra vit, extra str, berserk, double attack (which stacks with kicks and both punches meaning you can hit 6 times in one round), defender, and warcry (though eh! warcry is eh! nice addition to zerk though )

[shinjaku]

Really

:mad: I'm tired of all of u saying war is best subjob for mnk, its either u like being normal or have no imagination n scared of change. It has nothing to do with best it all depends on pt play. U know how many mnk/wars r on my server n they still dont know how to play.
mnks cant wear armor cause we r paper tigers in that regard, learn ur job n stop trying to be what ur not :mad: I only lvled war to 5 for voke till i got my sam sj :angel: after that ditched war. Peeps refuse to know their role, ever time i see a mnk/war walk by i laugh check their equipments n then u'll see y.
Dont give me pros to have war sj just listen to urself speak better yet read what ya writing n tell me if u make sense.
mnk is damage dealer period; maybe support dealer whatever; now mnk/sam thats a force well thought of. mnk/war for damage eh, really till u can take damage like a pld/war/drg thn talk. till then get a clue. I see mnks die after getting so much hate its funny u like dying after lv54 then u have no clue if u die before main tank. I see so many staking their life on war sj cool but if u got all that power n still die u suck period, u r useless to pt if u keep dying before tanks, but dying to save mages thats an honor In ballista i always demolish my mnk/war counter parts its nothing but a joke against mnk/sam player who knows how to play, till u all face 1 u will not understand. Dont give stats, till u understand how dangerous tp is u will be clueless. I'm not bashing mnk/war's dont get me wrong but jeez know ur roles. mnk/war is good as solo but in pt ur supposed to be a catalyst not the main bang. I have both a sam n war friend who both understand n respect my mnk/sam n we all pretty good. Also whats up with all these melee jobs refusing to eat meat n milk talk bout clueless If u see any mnk/sam on ur server hi up there u could learn from them if ur still clueless.

[laicram]

Oh man, I'll just post some general stuff.

For EXP PTs
Mnk/War: Alternating Berserk and Focus as a Damage Dealer. Provoke for setting up Trick Attack, being a Backup Voker, or Tanking =D

Mnk/Thf: After Lvl66, used for Sneak + Trick to close Skillchains.


For Solo:
Mnk/Thf: Steal, TH and Gil Finder for earning gil and materials.

Mnk/Rdm or Mnk/Whm: Healing helps when leveling Guard skill. After Lvl50, useful for Coffer Hunting (Invis, etc).

Mnk/Blm: After Lvl34, useful for Warp.


For Special Instances:
Search the forum^^

[Effen]

shinjaku

I have no idea what you are talking about. Under your logic, a no sub is the best sub since it's the least likely hood to steal hate from a tank.

The fact is, hate is something you can control. If you are doing dodge, berserk, focus, warcry > WS at the beginning of the fight, then of course you are going to get hate. It's not the job that's causing you to gain hate, it's the person behind the computer that's causing the monk to get hate.

The same goes with a Sam sub, I could span Asuran fist and gain hate easily. A sam sub is good on paper, but in reality it's just not that good. I'm not even going to waste my time on a pre 60 Sam sub as there's just not many good abilities, at least none that's comparable to berserk and double attack. Now, post 60, you get meditate, big deal... All I got to ask is, what are you going to do with that extra TP? Post 60, a typical fight is...

puller goes out and pull > arrives > wait for tank to get enough hate > wait for other members to get TP > Start skillchain > MB > Mob close to death/died already

Now please explain to me, where are you going to use that extra TP you gain from meditate?

As for the tanking comment, it's obvious that you can't tank with your war sub... it's only LV5 after all, doesn't even have the defense bonus. And FYI, a Monk at high level can tank. Just because you don't have the ability to do so, doesn't make it right. We don't have "paper armor". When you get full AF, eat fish kabob and defender up, we have the same def as a PLD without defender up. So please, stop before you post again, get some facts to support what you want to say.

[shinjaku]

Sub discussions

All i'm saying is i still have not seen a mnk/war do his/her job properly, as far as bonuses go i did mention lots of melee players decline to use food cause they think its the mages job to heal them. I hear what ur saying bout my war lv5, but before u go yapping away this is my 2nd character; my 1st i have my war up to lv60 so please dont tell me what i have. If u spam ws too early u die as a mnk u die period unless u have a very good pt. Like i said i did not say mnks cant tank just that u should know ur role, mnks r not tanks we r secondary damage dealers so know ur role. I have not met a mnk/war beat a mnk/sam in ballista on a reg. basis; record is 6 sam sj vs 0 war sj. Its possible they dont know how to play , but as far as abilities go sam needs more ability yes but with what u have its just fine n u dont have to wait for others just chain em The reason u might not have alot of mnk/sams on ur server is that peeps dont know how to play.
My new character having lv5 war sj jus proves how it can still work even at crawlers nest without a main tank, so till u can do that u have no idea what my skillz r.

[Effen]

If you are planning on leveling in balista, then perhaps you should get a Nin sub... A mnk/nin with kraken will destroy a mnk/sam, but does that mean anything in an exp situation? Absolutely nothing.

Until you can prove to me how you benefit from a sam sub, it's inferior to a War.

[shinjaku]

mnk/nin, hmm maybe. Like i said its all good on paper, u need to stop depending on ur blink. Well what u say might be true but like i said till some 1 actually succeed in destroying me with that mn/war or mnk/nin; sorry will have to tell u that i dont think so. Jus metioning other job abilities might be holy sermon to alot of peeps, but like i said u aint gone up gainst a good mnk/sam player yet. See this game was designed to keep us improving so if u have not tried beating 1 how would u know :spin: It all boils down to the player thats all.
As far as war being superior, keep breathing that bs n passing it around its kool I'm jus going to keep knocking ya blocks off thats all. I never said sam sj is best jus saying for my game style it works jus fine for me n i know how to use it very well; cant say the same for those other mnk/war on my server :p
I really enjoy ur feedback I look forward to meeting a mnk/nin in ballista People always said 1 style or way is better, but true players know if u put ur mind too it n come prepared there is always a way to beat the best aka street fighter n samurai show down. Dont go around feeding this metality of this is better than this or that, its shows that u have not even tried hard enough to see their weaknesses.; try n understand we humans r not machines. U should try n play as a taru mnk/war then u can talk. U took the easy route by going elven (wow) thats easy, try going with a race class thats difficult in that too play then u will understand what the truth really is. Thanxs for ur feed back i will test ur combinations at ballista Later player

[JayblahX]

Shinjaku,

I'm going to say this simply, because going further into it with you is a complete waste of my time, and potential risk of warning-points.

You are wrong.

Also, your comparison of FFXI to Fighting games is laughable. The latter are heavily skill-based games. The former is... well, not.

_______


Effen,

Stop wasting your time with this kid. Stop feeding him. Its obvious he isn't interested in changing his mind. Its obvious he can't come to grips with how wrong he is. No matter what you'll say to him, he'll counter with preach nonsense like "my playstyle" (wonder what playstyle that is? Crouching Tiger, Hidden Gimp?) or baseless musings.