DRG/NIN? O.o

[Vyuru]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Homam Gear. Haste and Emnity. Askar - Haste and Emnity. Barone - Emnity. And Barone should be a swap piece, if you're a properly balanced and geared Dragoon.

Not denying the usefullness of those gearsets, however, all of the pieces with substantial +enmity on them can easily be replaced by something else of comparable value.

I will NEVER go and wear either Askar Manopolas or Homam Manopolas as a DD job. +4/3 enmity on hands alone?! Are you insane?!

If I were to mix and match using primarily those gearsets, it'd be Homam feet/legs, Askar body, Askarhelm/Walahra turban, and either AF+1/Pallas bracelets for hands. Now how much +enmity is in that setup I ask you?

No one will go and tell a DD warrior to wear full AF, but they will say you should use the AF boots. It's the same with the above gearsets, you'd be foolish to use the full gearset and not mix and match.

The only time I will wear a full set of armor and damn the +enmity consequences will be if I ever get a full set of Ares armor, and the total +enmity from wearing that is +2enmity.

Instead of DRG/NIN, does it make more sense to DRG/WHM (with sanction auto-refresh) and keep Blink + Stoneskin up, or DRG/RDM and Blink + Stoneskin + Phalanx, or DRG/BLU and Cocoon + Metallic Body, and let the Wyvern do the curing?

Depends on the mob, so long as they aren't AoE spamming like Imps are with Poisonga I'd say Blink alone would be fine most times, subbed Stoneskin will absorb a few hits, but not that many, still decent to use though. However if you have a Blue Mage in the party they can use Diamondshell, which is one really surprisingly strong AoE Stoneskin and can easily cover any AoE damage.

In general though, if I am drg/mage I'll forgo Blink/Stoneskin and just wait for my hp to drop low enough for a healing breath. I save mp for when I really need it, and alot of times if I do have Blink/Stoneskin up Blink gets wiped by AoE before it does anything useful, so I generally prefer Stoneskin.

It's not cut and dry is what I've been saying all along. Sometimes Drg/Nin will be optimal

I'll give you that it's not cut and dry, but I will disagree that there is a situation that Drg/Nin is optimal in, especially in exp parties.

And to Fencingkitty, I don't know what your party was like, but the only times I have ever been harrassed or told I should have come /ninja was because the tank, most often ninja, was not tanking, the war/nins in the party, were not tanking and hate was flying everywhere. The healers were normally lucky if someone provoked the mob off of them. Those kinds of parties are stupid, I damn well expect people to have a better mentality about team work and how a party runs than some Dunes party.

And seriously, how sad is that where an entire area is used in a derogatory manner like the Dunes are now? The people don't even TRY to learn or be better. Sorry for the offtopic but that just struck me while writing.

Drg/nin is really just a bad all around option. Fine, you have an offensive breath, abilitiy to heal your party members would be better, mixed wyverns only heal their dragoon.

Yes drg/nin is situational, but with no form of party healing on your part, but to put it mildly I really do not think it is a good idea on the dragoon's part. Do you have any idea how often I have been the reason my party, exp/mission/other, has survived because I have come drg/rdm? I may not be able to take hits well, but that paladin sure can. Oh look, my healing breaths cure for more than the paladin gets hit for, gee, isn't that nice?

Drg's fave merit mob. /Nin on all melee allows the Rdm or Whm to Dia III/Dia II your merit mobs defense down enough to reduce the attack needed for 2.0 cRatio by as much as 116

I'll eat a DiaII/III for the team thank you very much. I have these options available to me: Either I just leave it on no problem, cast Stonskin to eat up the DoT damage, Super jump to avoid any possible hate problems, or have someone who is /whm cast Erase on me. Any none dragoon has the same options minus Super Jump. Not an issue at all and if your healers are hesitating about casting Dia II/III for that reason I'll have to have a few words with them.

I AM NOT SAYING /NIN IS THE BEST SJ TO USE. I AM JUSTIFYING WHY IT'S A VIABLE SJ CHOICE.

On the one hand, I realise what you are saying and I agree that there may be some situations where /nin might be viable.

On the otherhand, I look at those situations and think if people worked together better they wouldn't BE in that situation, making any arguement for times when /nin is viable void. I can't think of any instance in exp where you couldn't instead come /mage, use Seigan+TE, invite a thief for TA on the tank which so many people seem to refuse to do, failing to invite a thief have someone else come as /thf, or any number of things that would make coming with a /nin sub really poor teamwork on your part.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

I'm not insane, I just understand the value of haste gear. Since you don't - I've not bothered commenting anything else you've written, as your perspective is totally flawed. Other than Pallas Bracs for Drg... you'd wear gear that has negative stats for your best WS? And rate that over Homam, hahahahaha. Nice going sunshine.

Edit: If you'd said - I can't get Homam because I'm not in a Limbus shell etc, my reply would have been somewhat different.

[Vyuru]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

I'm not insane, I just understand the value of haste gear. Since you don't - I've not bothered commenting anything else you've written, as your perspective is totally flawed. Other than Pallas Bracs for Drg... you'd wear gear that has negative stats for your best WS? And rate that over Homam, hahahahaha. Nice going sunshine.

Your arguement that drg/nin has uses is similar to someone argueing that war/mnk has uses, and is getting much the same reaction. Yes, they have uses, but if you're using a two handed weapon then war/sam or war/thf is better. Use one handed weapons and war/nin is better, get my drift?

Heck, war/mnk is a better combo than drg/nin.

Other than Pallas Bracs for Drg... you'd wear gear that has negative stats for your best WS? And rate that over Homam, hahahahaha. Nice going sunshine.

1)

Whoever said that would be WS gear?

2)

Take a look at the Homam pieces I passed over (head, body, hands) Are you SERIOUSLY saying that I should wear something as stupid as Homam Manopolas with enmity +3 to TP in? Furthermore, why would I wear Homam Zucchetto when there is something better like the Askar Zucchetto?

Two pieces of Homam gear that I passed proven to be substantially inferior or foolish to use.

Do you have ANY idea what my plain unadorned accuracy rate is on normal exp mobs? Or how useful Store TP can be? When I am sitting on that much naked accuracy, with gobs of lance merits ahead of me, toss in accessories, perhaps, PERHAPS, you can see why I would consider the Homam Corazza a waste of time, and further to be useless for me? You'd be stupid to be sitting on that much +accuracy overkill. That's also counted before Hasso, assuming I don't have Seigan+TE up 24/7.

The third and last piece of Homam gear that I passed over shown to be foolish to use as well.

Those are fine pieces of gear to use for other jobs, but not for a drg/sam.

Also, I'm not seeing the, Additional effect: nerfs Penta/Skewer/Wheeling Thrust on any of the pieces I have mentioned even if I did want to use them as WS gear. The only piece that would truely be detrimental to my weaponskills would be the Pallas Bracelets due to the -dex on them, because like you know, Penta Thrust has a dex modifier on it.

I've not bothered commenting anything else you've written, as your perspective is totally flawed.

Most likely you aren't commenting on anything else because you cannot make a reasonable arguement against it.
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Copied and bolded for truth:

Last edited by LilithAngel : Yesterday at 03:50 PM. Reason: Besides, if a hate-shedding job needs to /NIN, then it's not the job, nor the job's player, that's the problem...

[Spinnthrift]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Your arguement that drg/nin has uses is similar to someone argueing that war/mnk has uses, and is getting much the same reaction. Yes, they have uses, but if you're using a two handed weapon then war/sam or war/thf is better. Use one handed weapons and war/nin is better, get my drift?

I get the point that you're spewing fanboi vitriol. But nice derail, though I will deign to answer you.

1)

Whoever said that would be WS gear?

You'd TP in -acc gear? Congrats. You win a cookie and your first free ride on the short bus.

2)

Take a look at the Homam pieces I passed over (head, body, hands) Are you SERIOUSLY saying that I should wear something as stupid as Homam Manopolas with enmity +3 to TP in? Furthermore, why would I wear Homam Zucchetto when there is something better like the Askar Zucchetto?

Two pieces of Homam gear that I passed proven to be substantially inferior or foolish to use.

Homam hands are the best hand piece a Drg can wear in the game barring one piece of gear. Just one. Do you know what that piece is? Dusk Gloves +1. Homam Head is a bit meh, because of W. Turban, but if you are wearing an Askar Turban, props to you... it's a damned sight harder to get than Homam (note that I'd also suggested wearing Askar.. but you skipped that in your glorious ignorance and pathetic attempt to win the internets).

Do you have ANY idea what my plain unadorned accuracy rate is on normal exp mobs?

Personally - your personal one. No. But - I'm well aware of the evasion caps on merit mobs. I've taken jobs out there, stood naked and swapped gear around till I knew the precise amounts of Acc I needed for 95% accuracy.

Or how useful Store TP can be?

Actually, funny you mention it, but the most you can get from Store TP on Drg is +24 (gear iirc), which equates to +2.4 tp per swing, unless you swap from a Tournament Lance to a different one, then you're at +2. If you're /Sam, then you're at +3.5 tp per hit. Since I'm well aware that haste can easily bring you to swinging *TWICE* as fast with any lance, please show me how you can get to double your store TP, because I'm well aware that even with a Corsair rolling an 11 with a Sam in the party, you can't. Physically impossible. So? Where does that leave me, going.. oh well, Store TP is a relatively redundant stat if I'm trying to be exception. Fun fact: Nice average lance delay is 490, giving a 13.3 tp return, using +3.5 tp per hit, means you get a 100.8 tp return from 6 swings. This means to cut your swings down, you need more than +19 store tp... So, yes - I do know how Store TP works, and I really don't think that highly of it, especially not when I can have haste or bless - triple attack for the lucky epeen of it. Otherwise, anything less than +19 will return a 7 hit build unless you're counting on getting hit on the way up. And no, I really can't be arsed to rework it back counting on full hit Penta's to start with, but be assured, I do know how.

When I am sitting on that much naked accuracy, with gobs of lance merits ahead of me, toss in accessories, perhaps, PERHAPS, you can see why I would consider the Homam Corazza a waste of time, and further to be useless for me?

So, what gear are we giving you.. Love Torque, Snipers +1 (x2), Life Belt, Askar Body, Askar Head, Drachen Hands (I'm being generous because I don't want to query your rank stupidity over saying TP in Pallas'), Amemet +1 or Forager's.. (doesn't matter, no acc there), Ears - hrmm,. Fowling/Brutal, Askar Dirs (that's being nice too), Feet.. Hrm.. Ares Sollerets.. I'd say that's a reasonable set of gear for you to have.

So, let's total all that acc up, including full polearm merits and love torque. So.. 200 + (99*0.9) = 289.1 naked accuracy. Then raw acc from gear: 14 from rings, 3 from ear, 4.3 from hands, 7 from feet, +8 from legs, +10 from belt, 3.75 extra from torque, 3 from head and 0 from body (so a 53.05 total). Let's give you another 50 accuracy from dex (being kind).. so total of 289.1 + 53.1 + 50 = 392.2 (rounding up). You're still shy of a 90% hit rate. Around 87% eyeballing it before doing the calculations on Colibri, let alone Mamool. So if you include your fabled accuracy rates on Drg - you're only just pushing the cap on Colibri by 4 points of accuracy... Sure, the Homam gear is worthless or you're vastly overestimating your own worth (one of these statements is true).

You can tell me you parse 95% accuracy and I'd be very suspicious of someone who'd wear -acc gear to tp in over +acc gear. Somehow, even with Hasso - I doubt you're pushing the barriers except in your own mind.

You'd be stupid to be sitting on that much +accuracy overkill. That's also counted before Hasso, assuming I don't have Seigan+TE up 24/7.

The third and last piece of Homam gear that I passed over shown to be foolish to use as well.

Those are fine pieces of gear to use for other jobs, but not for a drg/sam.

Even with that very nice set of gear I'd listed above, you've got virtually no haste in it, 4% to be precise. Add in your Hasso and that's 14%. Give you haste and double march, and you're at 49% By the way - at capped accuracy, Zanshin is almost pointless, you do know that right? Take a set of Homam, raw.. and I'm at 12% haste (+47 from spells), with +32 accuracy total and two haste slots free, as well as being able to choose to swap out the Homam Head if I wanted to. Meaning by your standards, I only need +21 acc in gear to not only match your accuracy, but exceed your haste also (with Hasso), as I can put in other pieces like hrm, swift belt and lolblitzring, as I'd need less acc to match you. Except I'd be swinging faster. Therefore TP'ing faster, and being more worthwhile to my merit party/etc/etc/etc. Hell, with /Nin - you could put together more haste and still be swinging faster than you.

Also, I'm not seeing the, Additional effect: nerfs Penta/Skewer/Wheeling Thrust on any of the pieces I have mentioned even if I did want to use them as WS gear. The only piece that would truely be detrimental to my weaponskills would be the Pallas Bracelets due to the -dex on them, because like you know, Penta Thrust has a dex modifier on it.

You wear one set of EQ all the time? Oh.. that explains a lot.

---

Fencingkitty - if a pickup asks for /Nin. Please don't be offended, it's one of a few reasons.

1: The leader is unsure of the tanks skill, and would rather you survived, even if you made less potential exp per hour.

2: The leader is unsure of the healers skill, and would rather you survived.

3: The person inviting you, is unsure of you, and wants to go with something neutral that should help overall. In case you have emnity merits, crit merits, polearm merits, etc, etc, etc.

4: The leader is aware you can do a lot of damage, and the tank doesn't have the tools to hold hate off.

5: There's no Thf's seeking... or the ones that are, aren't being invited for good reason. There's a few Thf's I've partied with once, and would *never* party with again. Ever. They thought they were the bomb too.

6: Any of the reasons before I've mentioned, and or others, mostly that Drg was a solid DD (if not top tier) prior to update, they're very very good now, and the tanks haven't been buffed in equilibrium.

7: The party leader has had someone like the above poster who was a liability, and didn't want to inflict more grief on their already annoyed Rdm and Bard/Cor, knowing that it would cause bad rep for themselves.

[LilithAngel]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Make your own parties? Merit with friends? Set up groups to merit with? I dunno.. I don't tend to worry much about meriting that much, I'm usually busy.

As am I, as is everyone. If I were in the States, or I managed to play during NA times, then this wouldn't be a problem, as I do happen to know plenty of people to put together a double brd pt. Easily.

However, I am not, as is evidenced by the fact my location reads Misawa Air Base, Japan. It's the same problem I've had to deal with on my own as when I was in Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany. I've managed to make it work, however the double brd pt that's so prevelant (apparently) is something I've had to go without. The only approximation that I can achieve with if I catch a Bard-Corsair party, and that's only if I'm the Corsair, since, being an English speaking person that only plays in a predominantly Japanese play time, it's that or I play with the random odd late night NA parties (which, surprise surprise, probably aren't going to be double bard).

As far as being busy is concerned, well, I'm fairly certain I beat out about 90-99% of the entire forum membership here at DiV for having a full plate. An active duty military career (in aircraft maintenance, no less), college, and still finding time to play this game on top of enjoying the sights of Japan pretty much means that only the other military members here are gonna be able to beat that out. I have to go with what I can, but I don't complain, I just make do. I do have to say that for what it's worth, I've done a lot more in less time than prolly just about anyone else in this thread alone.

[eticket109]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

/NIN is useful for one thing and one thing only, shadows. shadows help mitigate damage which is useful in today's burn parties. yes, I agree, with proper tanking that shouldn't be an issue. however, in today's ffxi that's just not the way of things.

I for one have never used it, but I can understand the usefulness.

I'm not even touching the gear convos. lol elitist flame war? {no thanks}

[Vyuru]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Well I must admit, the flames got me a bit mad and had to wait a bit to respond, however, now that I have had a chance to read your post closer, I am actually quite amused.

Where to begin?

Let's give you another 50 accuracy from dex (being kind)..

My base unaltered dex is 71, 3/4(71) = 53.25 accuracy from dex. If you're being as kind with my accuracy from gear as you are with my gear (BTW, where's my Gugnir with that gearset?) then you are more than a tad bit off there if you think 50 acc from dex is being *kind and generous*

But I could be wrong, perhaps you are using the one handed dex to acc conversion formulas, instead of the two handed dex to acc formula.

Also, you neglected BOTH of Dragoon's +acc traits, that adds up to +20 accuracy BTW.

Seeing as how you missed BOTH of those rather important items, I think we can conclude that you don't have much, if any experience as dragoon if you don't even know what our job traits are. Perhaps you should not be flaming the people quite so hard who DO have extensive experience with this job when we collectively say that ninja offers little to nothing for this job.

As someone else pointed out to me, these are people who don't always see eye to eye and may not be able to agree on the color of an orange who are all agreeing that drg/nin offers little that another sub couldn't do instead, and better.

Actually, funny you mention it, but the most you can get from Store TP on Drg is +24

Since I'm well aware that haste can easily bring you to swinging *TWICE* as fast with any lance, please show me how you can get to double your store TP, because I'm well aware that even with a Corsair rolling an 11 with a Sam in the party, you can't. Physically impossible.

Actually, funny you should mention it.

As you say, average delay on lances dragoons actually USE is approximately and exactly 492, this results in 13.3 TP per hit, which results in 8 hits need to reach 100 TP. Toss in Store TP II from a samurai sub, which is +15% TP/hit, you are now looking at 15.2 TP/hit, which alone results in 7 hits needed to reach 100 TP. I now only need 7 hits instead of 8, that's one hit less, that is, with a standard delay lance, 8.2 fewer seconds needed in order to reach 100%TP.

And you do know that a 6 hit TP setup for dragoons isn't exactly feasible until you get some of the really good gear like a Valkyrie's Fork and some other stuff right?

Already, a little store TP proves to be useful, that's not counting jumps or meditate to fill in the gaps even faster.

Take a set of Homam, raw.. and I'm at 12% haste

Take my earlier suggested gearset and I'm at 10%-11% haste depending on what I use, less accuracy than you true, but you bungled your earlier accuracy estimates so I actually pull even with you in the +acc department. I have more +str/att/dex in my gear, so I will be hitting harder than you, and I haven't even touched the accessories I would use yet. I will also have much less +enmity than you will, therefore pulling hate less often and being less of a mp sponge on the party.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

DRG/NIN is a real head scratcher for me.

First off, you're likely not going to dual wield in this combo, so that's gone to waste. Secondly, you have two enmity-shedding moves open two you on three-minute recastt timers. So if you got hate, you'd probably lose hate. Third, any AOE is going to wipe of get through shadows, so /NIN doesn't really add much protection for the times a DRG could get hit anyway.

Then let's look at all the cool things DRG loses:

Hasso
Seigan
Store TP
Berzerk
Warcry
Double Attack
Sneak Attack
Trick Attack

There's no good reason for DRG to sub /NIN, even at merit level. All it does is negate damage and if DRGs are playing thier jobs right, taking hate and keeping it should be rare.

[Ciecle]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

If you want a /nin Best bet would be /sam cause you get Seigan+third eye you get 3 shadows/eyes plus you get a chance to counter the monster's attack on top of that seigan lasts 3 mins and recast for third eye is 30 seconds.
and /nin gives you multiwyvern...
but like Omg said look at all the cool things you lose if you go /nin (dont care too much about the /thf though xD)


/Rdm and /whm is good if you are soloing not really for partys cause when a party has to resort to a DD for healing then its pointless to be in a party.

Being tarutaru dragoon is kind of intresting(72 as of right now ^.^)
all i need for it is a couple of +acc items Hasso/seigan and all +Str items. right now as drg/sam i have Str61+37 with out hasso and attack is over 389 attack and i do over 700 on Imps useing wheeling thrust and 500 for penta thrust....
But enough about my accompilshments on game .

I said my part about the whole /nin thing lol

[Vyuru]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Best bet would be /sam cause you get Seigan+third eye you get 3 shadows/eyes plus you get a chance to counter the monster's attack

I thought Seigan+Third Eye gave you a random number of shadows?

Yeah, from Wiki:

While Seigan is in effect, the recast time for Third Eye is halved.
Third Eye may anticipate or counter an attack without being consumed.

While it is random I would say the average of hits you evade/counter would be about 3-4.

Plus, with Seigan+Third Eye you don't have to worry about getting hit while trying to recast Utsusemi pre lvl 74.

4 levels sure, but it's still pretty nice. You also have a decent chance of getting Third Eye up if you see the mob readying some TP move against you as well.

And if you *really* want to lower your offensiveness, you could just sub a mage job to lower the amount of damage you deal, giving you access to a healing wyvern which can help cure you, and other party members. Plus that could be usefull coming as drg/rdm for Dispel that I have yet to see be resisted except on summons. Or /whm for ~na spells if it's needed.

Omgwtfbbqkitten and I for sure don't agree on that one But I will say if the healing aspect is covered/mostly covered then /whm for ~na spells and the occasional DS+Curaga I/II could be quite beneficial to the party. Especially if this is some ToAU/WoTG camp and you have auto refresh on.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

All things considered, I'm less afraid of DRG/NIN in merit parties than people using my merit time as a skill up party.

DRG does enough damage without a support job that I'm not really inclined to worry over /SAM, /NIN, or whatever, especially on Greater Colibri. (Heck, MNK/NIN does just fine without taking advantage of Dual Wield, right?)

[Vyuru]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

All things considered, I'm less afraid of DRG/NIN in merit parties than people using my merit time as a skill up party.

Oh god Sapara of Trials Paladin flashback....
Be afraid... Be very afraid....

DRG does enough damage without a support job that I'm not really inclined to worry over /SAM, /NIN, or whatever, especially on Greater Colibri. (Heck, MNK/NIN does just fine without taking advantage of Dual Wield, right?)

I don't know, this is a really kinda yes and kinda no question to me.

IF H2H were counted as a 2handed weapon, would we be telling all the monks to go as mnk/sam for Seigan/TE and all the other /sam goodies?

You can kick your damage down just as much as /mage and provide a whole host of healing benefits to your party, going /nin really seems a waste to me. Although I will say again that there may be some places or instances where you'd want to do that. I honestly can't think of any but there very well might be.

I agree with you that drg does enough damage without a support job that I wouldn't normally worry about support jobs, but it's more, what utility does the support job bring to dragoon that I question.

In terms of defensiveness I think /sam is either better or roughly equal to /nin. I'd probably go with roughly equal since the duration of Third Eye while under Seigan is a bit random. Plus with Meditate I can open/close SC much more easily and add to my damage that way if I wanted to.

In terms of healing, just about any mage sub is better in my mind due to a higher HB threshold and ability to heal other people.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Firstly Vyuru - I did count the second accuracy boost, you just don't know the evasion caps of mobs, although looking back, I was 2 points out with how much boost you get (forget it's +22 not +20).

Secondly - the last 2hander tests I performed (pre 2hander balance redressing), showed that the benefits gained on a 1:1 ratio were only those granted after equipment, and not off your base stats. This may have changed post update, but it appeared to be consistent with the increase I noticed when playing around with Warrior. Base stats *were* (although when my exams are over I'll log in and recheck) on the same 2:1 ratio as 1handers. If that was redressed in the most recent update I'll accede the point with dex, but still even with the set of gear given, you're still only just hitting the caps.

I'm not decrying the use of /Sam ever... I have it levelled.. however - when the best WS's readily available for a well geared Nin will top around 800-900 (averages), and similarly for a Pld, when a Drg or any 2handed DD can put upwards of 1.3k easily if geared well, /Sam and Seigan is not a guaranteed defense. And I can say that from experience. I've seen War/Sam's put out huge Raging Rush's, and go Third Eye, and ignore/counter till the meripo mob is dead. I've also seen the same War/Sam open with a Raging Rush, and lose the Eye with Seigan up on the first hit, which was followed by some WS spammage which left them very sorely hurt (and dead occasionally - which then caused a downtime as we lost chain).

Yes - Drg can High Jump/Super Jump, but those are not always available, especially if you're killing very fast. Even a slow party should be killing one mob a minute, which means you will have at least one mob where you can't avoid hate, more if your party is killing fast, even more if you pull hate early, jump it off, turn it and have to rejump it off because you made a huge WS or any number of reasons when you've had to use your jumps, maybe because you used a high jump to TP up with instead of using it solely for removing hate (a common trait to many a Drg).

The whole benefit of /Nin wasn't a damage boost, but a defense boost, which in a high damage output job (which Drg is, more so on Colibri), allowing for continuous exp chains without draining supports resources. Yes, /Sam does more damage. But sometimes straight damage isn't what's needed. That modicum of equilibrium where the jobs balance, no one person is more a tank than any other - which is the current style of optimum exp gain.

Yup - I love SC'ing. Loved it as a Thf, loved it as a Drg, loved it as a Blm, loved it as a Nin, but - it isn't a consistent damage tool in ToAU. Mobs are *very* resistant to them here. I've recently partied with a Drk and Rng combo (both were thankfully /Nin) while levelling, and while both were regularly breaking 2k combined from WS damage, the SC damage would vary from around 30 to 700. It's not a reliable tool in exp any more from around 52 onwards (when people start hitting ToAU).

Kitten, of late, you've been saying a lot of awry things. The amount of damage a DD can put out compared to a tank is absurd. If a DD has to lower their damage, so that not one person has total hate - then that's what they need to do to be in balance.

If a Drg can put out a 1k+ WS at the start of a fight - will Seigan GUARANTEE thier survival? No. Will Utsusemi do so? Also no, but they have a much *higher* chance of surviving. So a DD can release a WS when they have 100 tp and regain tp. That's why /Nin is about, as a change in trend from the days when WS > WS > SC > MB was the standard. Do I like it this way? My personal feelings are irrelevant. If I have to lower my output to perform in a party, I will. If I have to go backup heal, I will. If I have to wear an attack set of gear and eat sushi because the rest of my party needs minuet x2 to hurt the mobs, guess what - I'll put attack gear on over accuracy because of balance.

Lastly - the number of times I've seen DD's with /Sam refuse to use Seigan because they're doing huge damage etc, etc, means that while I'm thoroughly aware of it's potential, I rarely get to see it used fully, as they leave Hasso on full time. Why? Because of all the stick they got for being Drks and Drgs prior to the update and they need to DD now. Hell, I've seen Samurai not use it till they're one hit from death. It's called in my LS, the Uchi Syndrome (named after a certain person who does just the following). Where a DD is completely and utterly oblivious to anything bar their own damage output (usually at the detriment of the party they're in).

/Sam can be better, but it can also be much much worse. I've seen 2 pecking flurry's back to back avoided, and I've also seen /Sam DD's get torn to shreds because they only anticipated 1 hit with Seigan up, with a whole lot of hate more than they or their party could cope with. /Nin is a guaranteed 3 hits absorbtion, and if you're skilled enough to cast between attacks, 6.

For my last post in this thread... I will say the same damn thing I've said over and over. I'm not saying it's a good or bad sj choice. It's situational to the party. Sometimes it's what is needed, sometimes it's not. Simple as that. If you're an Uchi, then it's probably needed. If you're well geared and the rest aren't - it's probably needed. If you're with a shady tank (which I've seen many of you complain about) - it's probably needed. If you're with a great tank, who can match you pound for pound, Drg/war or /Sam is better. If you're poorly geared and your party is well geared, you'll want to be /War or /Sam for the power up. If you're in a traditional party that uses SC's and stuff - /War (and possibly /Sam) is better. If you're on a NM fight that you need to make sure you have a WS ready at a specific time, /Sam is probably better (or /War if you need to adjust for cRatio), or /Thf if it doesn 'Frail' if you need to make sure you land it. If you're meleeing on Brig Blade in Sky, /Nin is definately better (I say this as it was a recent kill - trying to help me HQ a knife). I can keep picking places where one role is better than others and worse than others in different roles. I might not have done it all in that one weekend when Lilith had shore leave, but I've been there over the years.

No SJ is the be all and end all for Drg. Simple as. There are times when /Nin is best and times when it's not. There are times when /Sam is the best and times when it's not. Just remember - if someone says: "Hey, can you go /Nin?" They're probably doing it for a good reason, and not just to damage your ego.

Am I sitting on the fence? Damn straight - because I'm versatile, I appreciate both sides of the story. And I'm as right in saying - /Nin's not crap, as right as you all are for saying /Sam is great. It's like my using Rdm/Drg in campaign because I get to be a WS whore with it and not care about being in a party. Serves it's purpose to the needs which I want met. Would I say it's viable in a standard meripo? No. Would I try and solo the Archlord fight with it if I ever change nations.. YES!

~signing out.. I need sleep and I've exams coming up.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Omgwtfbbqkitten and I for sure don't agree on that one.

Not only is /WHM more beneficial to a EXP PT (if its even neccessary to sub /mage), there are now two other mage subs out there for DRG that aren't /WHM and are better than /RDM - BLU and SCH.

Most /mage subs would favor a quick-casting spell anyway for HB trigger, Fast Cast from /RDM doesn't offer much of an advantage. Enspells are largely a joke on RDM main, even worse under sub. RDM just doesn't offer as much to DRG as other mage subs do. RDM and BLM just aren't as good as DRGs other mage sub options.

Before we even debate /SCH, all I have to say is subbable B skill Aspir.

/Nin's not crap, as right as you all are for saying /Sam is great.

Rubbish.

/NIN offers no increased DD potential to DRG, a job that is a damage-dealer. That should be the first thing we consider in a PT role for DRG, not avoiding damage. /NIN works for WAR and other jobs that can dual-wield with real benefits, but DRG specializes in lance.

/SAM offers +15% haste +5 STR from Hasso, then offers benefits to Third Eye via Seigan at 70+. I'd say Seigan's placement was rather intentional. Also, AGI gear I believe helps Third Eye quite a bit under Seigan. I'm speaking as a RNG here, i've see it Third Eye drop after a couple swipes, but I've also seen it last for 6 or 7 under Seigan(having Seiryu's Kote probably doesn't hurt here).

/SAMs a better package - increased DoT and evasion options, /NIN just gives you that latter.

[Kafeen]

Re: DRG/NIN? O.o

Homam hands are the best hand piece a Drg can wear in the game barring one piece of gear. Just one. Do you know what that piece is? Dusk Gloves +1. Homam Head is a bit meh, because of W. Turban, but if you are wearing an Askar Turban, props to you... it's a damned sight harder to get than Homam (note that I'd also suggested wearing Askar.. but you skipped that in your glorious ignorance and pathetic attempt to win the internets).

DRGs usually get quite shafted on gear compaired to some jobs, this has improved alot recently and there are quite a few viable options for hand equipment.

For example, the Pallas Bracelets you so easilyl shoot down give a give a nice +9 STR boost at the sacrifice of 5 AGI and 5 DEX. 9 STR is nice where ever its coming from, especially if you're a Mithra like Vyuru who will naturally have a much higher DEX than STR from racial traits. Would you think it was odd a Galka PLD to wear HP>MP conversion gear? Even though HP is good for a PLD Galkas have it to spare but do benefit from an MP boost, the same can be said for Mithra sacrificing DEX for STR. Other races can get away with it too if they have accuracy boosts from other sources. If you're hitting 90+% of the time anyway gaining DEX probably isn't going to have much effect, hitting harder on the other hand might.

Drachen +1 are also a nice piece, offering +5 STR and DEX.

As are Wyrm (+1) offering +5 (+7) Accuracy.

They're just the ones I know off the top of my head, you certainly aren't just limited to Dusk or Homam, just because they have a haste boost.