Question on Haste setup

[Vyuru]

Getting closer to lvl 75 and toying with the idea of a haste setup, but I've got some questions.

Firstly, how much +haste do I need to be looking at to make a haste build worthwhile? I'm sure there is a point where +haste gear goes from "meh" to "wow" and I'd like to know if it's feasible to reach this point, with or without a /sam sub.

Secondly, I rarely ever get haste in exp parties these days (not that I've joined that many of them), is it wise to count on getting a haste spell or not when considering equipment?

Is a haste setup worthwhile for a two hander or would more of a double attack setup be better? There wouldn't be much difference in my equips for either one, I think the main difference would be between using a /sam vs a /war subjob, but still it's something to think about, especially if I can get into a Salvage/Einherjar shell.

[Armando]

Re: Question on Haste setup

Vyuru: There really isn't a point where it goes from "meh" to "wow!" since its effect on your attack speed is, well, a curve. Sure, the more you add, the better it gets, but don't expect your performance to suddenly explode because you exceeded some number.

For the record, DDs like to say you should get at least 10% Haste. Of course the biggest concern is keeping your hit rate up.

Secondly, I rarely ever get haste in exp parties these days (not that I've joined that many of them), is it wise to count on getting a haste spell or not when considering equipment?

Without the Haste spell, you're kind of screwed. Again, Haste's effect on your number of attack rounds is exponential, and not having that 15% is a huge setback. Make sure your mages cast it on you.

Is a haste setup worthwhile for a two hander or would more of a double attack setup be better? There wouldn't be much difference in my equips for either one, I think the main difference would be between using a /sam vs a /war subjob, but still it's something to think about, especially if I can get into a Salvage/Einherjar shell.

Double Attack is definitely inferior to Haste except obviously during WS. Double Attack's benefits are purely linear (and technically speaking, the more you add, the less it benefits you over your previous quantity. I.e. 5% double attack means less of an improvement in number of swings if you already have 20% of it as opposed to having none, even though you're getting the same number of extra swings in both cases.)

[LilithAngel]

Re: Question on Haste setup

I've managed to eke out a fair balance between the Haste/Double Attack balancing act by banking on a couple of factors that skew things in my favor. Since (from what I gathered) you're a Mithran Dragoon like myself, these things might help you out as well.

First off, /SAM is a good choice for this setup, not only from the Hasso boosts, but also Zanshin (surprisingly enough). It helps make all that natural accuracy Dragoon has (on top of being a Mithran zweihander) count for more when you get that occasional 'second chance'. Store TP makes each hit count for more, meaning you need fewer rounds to reach at least 100%. Meditate, when used properly in conjuntion with the Jump line, is just pure sex.

As far as gear is concerned, this is where it gets tricky (as well as either expensive, or time-consuming, or both, depending on the route you take). There are several pieces of gear that Dragoon can use and are desired, but most all come with a hefty drawback (non-stat-wise, that is), either in the cost in gil (Dusk line), time (Walahra Turban), or both (Homam; Brutal). However, the dividends that these pieces pay out are indeed worth it.

I currently use Wal-Mart Turban, Dusk gloves and boots, and Brutal Earring for my Haste/DA set, with the Store TP from pieces like Rajas Ring and Chiv Chain to add onto the JT from /SAM to make reaching 100% come around sooner. Also, strategic use of Med./Jumps help bridge the gaps between each WS.

Most of this you should know by now, but every once in a while it's good to re-evaluate what you're doing to see if it's working well or not. I'm constantly checking and rechecking my performance with the various setups I've used over the years as a Dragoon to see if I haven't missed any iteration of the job that could prove to be better than how I do things now.

Amusingly enough, Dragoon is the only job I've bothered to go to this length and amount of effort for. Nothing else has proven itself worthy of such attention in my eyes.

/dragoonfanboyism off (not really)

[Vyuru]

Re: Question on Haste setup

but don't expect your performance to suddenly explode because you exceeded some number.

I'm not, but given the time duration of fights I would expect that there is a certain % of +haste that goes from not doing anything to doing something, for instance I would assume that +3% haste wouldn't do *much* of anything for you, +13% haste on the other hand I would assume would be more noticable.

Without the Haste spell, you're kind of screwed. Again, Haste's effect on your number of attack rounds is exponential, and not having that 15% is a huge setback. Make sure your mages cast it on you.

Sadly easier said than done -.- I feel like a Pld asking for Poisona in the Nest most of the times

Now how is Double Attack linear and Haste not? I would think that Haste's benefits would also be linear. I am not seeing a difference between saying that going from 20%-25% Haste is better than going from 20%-25% Double Attack rate. You didn't say that but that's what I'm thinking given your post.

I'm afraid Haste is a little bit of a fuzzy area that I'm not terribly familiar with.

Since (from what I gathered) you're a Mithran Dragoon like myself

/looks at bewbs, looks at tail, looks at sig.

Yep! Mithra!

Meditate, when used properly in conjuntion with the Jump line, is just pure sex.

That's another thing to consider. When in exp parties in the Mire, I am hit with Amnesia so often and for so long that I cannot utilize Meditate, Jumps, and all my other JA/WS as I would like to. Would you recommend /war or /sam there? I am hesitant to try /war mostly because even with all the amnesia, Seigan+Third Eye has been a life saver more than once. I'm hoping that now that I'm halfway to lvl 74 I might get an invite to a different exp camp, but I consider that a bit unlikely.

Thanks for the replies ^^

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Question on Haste setup

your mages

Oh.

Oh.

So we're "their mages" now?!? I demand my rights! I call a strike! I'm a Red Mage, I can solo . . .

Oh, wait, I don't even have Haste yet . . .

nvm

/indignation

[Armando]

Re: Question on Haste setup

No time for long post now. See if you can make sense of this:

Attack rounds for a given time frame: Time/Delay

(Percentage) Improvement in # of attack rounds:
(New # of attack rounds)/(Old #)
= [Time/New Delay] / [Time/Old Delay]
= [Time/New Delay] * [Old Delay/Time]
Time and Time cancel out
Old Delay/New Delay
= Old Delay/(Old Delay * 1-Haste%)
= (Old Delay/Old Delay) * (1/1-Haste%)
= 1/1-Haste%

20% Haste = 1/0.80 = 1.25 = 25% increase in number of attack rounds
25% = 1/0.75 = 33.3% increase

Edit: Plus, if you think about it, 50% Haste isn't 50% more attacks, it's twice as many attacks. And 100% Haste would mean infinite attacks per unit time. Which is obviously impossible. So you can see its effects are clearly not linear even without the math.

[Vyuru]

Re: Question on Haste setup

So we're "their mages" now?!?

Always have been always will be, just be happy I don't demand Refresh as well! Mwahahahahahaaa!!!

1/1-Haste%

20% Haste = 1/0.80 = 1.25 = 25% increase in number of attack rounds
25% = 1/0.75 = 33.3% increase

Edit: Plus, if you think about it, 50% Haste isn't 50% more attacks, it's twice as many attacks. And 100% Haste would mean infinite attacks per unit time. Which is obviously impossible. So you can see its effects are clearly not linear even without the math.

Hmmm, yes, I think I see....

Now the big question is 50% haste attainable?

Thanks guys! You have given me much to think about.

[Armando]

Re: Question on Haste setup

Now the big question is 50% haste attainable?

Not too hard. Double marches, Haste spell, 15% Haste gear. Up to ~70% Haste can be reached through normal means if I'm not mistaken. I've read that Apocalypse's Haste effect lets you go over that 70% for even more retarded amounts of swings (which I'll easily believe, since I've seen a video of a DRK doing Catastrophe -> Catastrophe back to back for Darkness SC.)

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Question on Haste setup

15% haste, 20% from March x2, 10% from Hasso, +% from gear...

Yes.

Yar - as Armando says, it's quite easily obtainable.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Question on Haste setup

Let's see, if I ever came across a BRD that was capable of thinking along those lines, and a mage that paid attention to Haste...

Haste - 15%
Double March - 20%
Hasso - 10%
Wal-Mart Turban - 5%
Dusk Gloves - 3%
Dusk Boots - 2%

That comes to 55% Haste. The only way I could boost that number any further would be to pick up Homam Hands, Legs, and Boots, and one of: Swift, Speed, or Sonic Belt. I would believe at that point an exceptionally noticeable Haste setup would be achieved.

However, in any merit party I end up in, that much Haste, combined with the amount of damage I already do, means that I will tank each fight. This much I've already proven time and again. Hopefully the fights end quickly, because hovering around the 50-60% Haste brackets in a job that has only so many defensive options is indeed dangerous.

[Nuriko]

Re: Question on Haste setup

If you turn into an MP sink, you can expect to go to the end of the Haste cycle or be dropped outright ... I've main-healed a merit party or two as WHM, and how well I choose to keep up a haste cycle depends greatly on how badly I need to rest due to getting up and tossing a Cure V to somebody...

[Vyuru]

Re: Question on Haste setup

Oh, I wouldn't go for that much haste, it's more just curiosity if you could get that much haste.

And besides, I'm already at the end/lucky if I get any haste so it's not like I'd be missing anything there.... /grumble grumble mumble

[Malacite]

Re: Question on Haste setup

No time for long post now. See if you can make sense of this:

Attack rounds for a given time frame: Time/Delay

(Percentage) Improvement in # of attack rounds:
(New # of attack rounds)/(Old #)
= [Time/New Delay] / [Time/Old Delay]
= [Time/New Delay] * [Old Delay/Time]
Time and Time cancel out
Old Delay/New Delay
= Old Delay/(Old Delay * 1-Haste%)
= (Old Delay/Old Delay) * (1/1-Haste%)
= 1/1-Haste%

20% Haste = 1/0.80 = 1.25 = 25% increase in number of attack rounds
25% = 1/0.75 = 33.3% increase

Edit: Plus, if you think about it, 50% Haste isn't 50% more attacks, it's twice as many attacks. And 100% Haste would mean infinite attacks per unit time. Which is obviously impossible. So you can see its effects are clearly not linear even without the math.

Though a DRK with the Apocalypse and Lv 3 Desperate Blows can come awfully close (90% from what I hear because of the way Desperate Blows is factored in, and the haste from Catastrophe is uncapped)