Multi Hit Polearm?

[Lmnop]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

You mean logically

If it matters that much to you, yes I did.

Of course...

Logistics:the planning, implementation, and coordination of the details of a business or other operation.

The planning of the details of their Relic weapons fails. "We'll make Mercy Stroke STR based and Geirskogul AGI based." Their implementation was weak "We'll make it cost billions of RMT-able gil." And of course, their Coordination sucked: "We can't get the animation team to create new WS animations for the 7 different Race combinations * the number of Relic WSs... I guess we'll just take already-existing animations and add a bunch of fireworks."

So there, logistically, S-E did a pretty crap-tastic job.

Oh, and how 'bout them WS animations that look multi-hit but aren't?

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Oh, and how 'bout them WS animations that look multi-hit but aren't?

But thats what makes them so cool... relic ws should be mod strx100 and be 5 hit ws onry! lol jking >.>

[Malacite]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that relics are optional.

So is playing this game, that doesn't make it right.


EDIT:

But thats what makes them so cool... relic ws should be mod strx100 and be 5 hit ws onry! lol jking >.>

Interestingly enough, the last 3 "normal" Tachi WS are all 75% STR while Kaiten is only 60. >.> Still pretty damn high though when it has a TP mod of 3x DMG at any TP level.

[Karinya]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I think I'm somewhere inbetween on this debate. The more I read from Karinya, the more I realize she's right. But all the same...
Coulda fooled me. Soboro, all the Jailer weapons, the Mercurial weapons - they all came out around the same time. And if I had to guess, it was an attempt to make every job feel as special as Ridill Warriors. Well, you're still right. They shouldn't be, but it often happens.

Soboro has absolutely terrible DMG. So do most of the mercurial weapons. The only one in common use outside of skillups is the kris, which is only offhanded for TP because its DMG is low. Jailer weapons have low DMG too (although not quite AS low) and take up the ammo slot (no bomb core for you).

Justice Sword and Ridill are both 1-handed swords with the exact same delay. Justice Sword takes up an extra equipment slot, requires ammo that gets used up whenever it procs, and swings a maximum of 2 times compared to Ridill's 3. To make up for this, it has 34 damage while Ridill only has... 40. Oh wait. Maybe the new weapons aren't quite as strong as the old ones after all. (Justice also has +7 STR, but I doubt very much if it's enough to close the gap between the two.)

I admit that Kclub also has low DMG, but in that case it's not used for its damage but as a source of TP and for Souleater. For those things only the number of hits counts. No other weapon has ever had the same number of hits as Kclub, including the new ones. In fact I can't think of any other weapon that can even hit *half* as many times on one swing.

I think the stats on the new multihits clearly prove two things:
1) SE knows the old multihits are too powerful. Why else make the new ones weaker, even ones that come from far more dangerous and difficult fights?
2) They nevertheless aren't doing anything about it. If they intended to fix (i.e. nerf) the old weapons they would have fixed them by now.

Ever notice that the Relics aren't balanced? All the 2 handers seem to do double damage while the one handers do 2.5-3x damage. Doesn't this seem strange, logistically? Relic Katana (Kikoku or something? Someone said it earlier and I'm not gonna scroll up to find it) will likely swing every 2.5 seconds or so. And when that time comes, you have a 10% chance of triple damage, in addition to your already sick ninja DoT. Let's say you're a Drk toting Scourge. Since you have a Relic, you better have a good Haste set, so your swings are every ~5 seconds, instead of the normal 7ish. So every 5 seconds, you have a chance to deal Double damage. Does this make sense yet? Or does my logic fail?

Well, doubling the damage of a 103 DMG 2hander is a lot more damage than tripling the damage of a 42 DMG 1hander. In fact the triple damage kikoku proc will barely outdamage a normal swing of Apoc (possibly not even that, depending on how much attack each of them has) and probably fall short of an Apoc crit (let alone proc).

And aren't you assuming that the relic katana user is not dual-wielding? It may be worthwhile to do that given how powerful the relic is, but they give up a lot of DW-haste (some of it a job trait that they can't replace with other equipment) to do that. If they *are* dual wielding the relic with anything else, their overall swing time won't be that different from the 2her, assuming Haste and haste gear for both.

Honestly. All I really want from Relics is for them to be balanced with each other. Claustrum can't replace HQ staves, what?!?!?!? Great Katana does attack down and it's WS gives Store TP+7 (yay? the GK that Absolute Virtue drops gives Store TP+8 all the time). Meanwhile, Bravura gives evasion down on normal hits, defense down on weapon skill, with additional effect: reduces Damage Taken. Talk about a loaded weapon. Too bad it can't compete with Ridill or even +20 mp/minute (that'd be the Relic Horn, of course).

Actually, it's +80 mp, per mp user in the party, per minute (with double ballad). There comes a point where more MP doesn't really help, though.

I don't know about bravura vs. an axe/ridill setup - I've never seen someone with bravura. Anyway, didn't we just agree that ridill is too strong? Compare it to axe/axe or axe/joyeuse (let alone to any other GA) and it comes out much stronger.

Obviously, AV's GK didn't exist when relics were added, but I think you're ignoring other differences between them: higher dmg, lower delay, acc+20, atk down proc, the hidden damage multiplying effect and Kaiten. And that's compared to a drop from (currently) the hardest HNM in the game.

Every Relic should've required a decent chunk of Currency, as well as a collection of rare/ex items from hard bosses in all of the original dynamis'. And perhaps, a bunch of out-of-Dynamis things (think Hakutaku).

Actually, relic upgrading *does* require a bunch of out-of-Dynamis things (crafted items and materials, mostly) and at least two rare/ex Dynamis NM drops. They're just totally insignificant compared to the currency.

Honestly, I think that if people embraced the extra Skillchain potential of Relic Weapon skills, we wouldn't have nearly as many of these threads. The funny thing about 5 minute Kirin is that I feel that it's closer to how the game was supposed to be played. I think they did it over-the-top with melee and outside cures, but would it be so bad to have a -gasp- mix of melee and magery on big things?

Of course not - and I've been in LSes that did just that. Not everyone kills kirin exclusively with Tornado II, Chi Blast and Nether Blast. A few SCs can help a lot on resists, too, if you're coordinated enough.

In fact, I'd say that if SE introduced some way to allow two alliances to cooperate on Kirin or other big HNMs, everyone would start meleeing him more. There's really no reason not to, aside from the artificial limit of 18 people that can attack him at any one time.

But doing *that much* damage that fast changes the nature of the encounter completely. The fast kirin people (allegedly) kill him so fast that he doesn't even summon all his minions, which is a large part of the challenge of the fight (for groups that it still IS challenging for, as opposed to merely tedious). This isn't so bad for kirin, because there's lots of people for whom he isn't really that challenging anyway. No limit on time or number of people will tend to do that.

But do you want to see the same thing happen to AV, Proto-Omega/Ultima, Bahamut, DL? I don't. If someone can take Proto-Ultima from 20% to dead in less time than the countdown of Citadel Buster, or finish off DL before resummoned Ying and Yang even reach them, they'd have avoided one of the major challenges in the encounter, just by doing damage faster.

[Lmnop]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not summarizing you out of disrespect. Simply a desire to keep the size of my post down.

Multi-hit weapon stuff

Soboro: A+ rank weapon capable of giving the user over 50% tp every 7.5 seconds. I think the average per/round TP would probably end up around 34%. Ok, it's weak. But it's also A+ ranked (Ridill cannot touch this), and Samurai have decent Archery, with lots of good +Archery gear. Also, Sam/war can do insane DoT in even the mid 60s with this thing. It's damage is apparently not weak enough. I think my friend was doing 2-400 Yuki's on things I was Rampaging for 4-700 on. And obviously, he WSed a lot.

Jailer weapons: Can proc double and triple attacks. This is what makes a Fortitude Axe capable of comparing - it ends up similar to dual wield in that you hit twice and each of those swings can 2A. It gets 13-14% tp/swing, but this is offset with weak weapon skills and the fact that you're not guarenteed to multi-attack, unlike Dual Wield where you know your offhand will always take a swing. Basically, they're not as weak as they seem.

Mercurial Weapons: Along with Bahamut's Zaghnal, pretty weak - no excuses.

Those points said, I agree that when they implemented them, they were significantly and purposely weaker than Ridill and KC. I was going to comment on this last post, but got lazy. I think

I think the Jailer weapons are superb, because they're not incredibly potent, and they require a decent sacrifice. Though I'd still rather we didn't have multi-hitters so that DRKs could get a better 2hour.

Well, doubling the damage of a 103 DMG 2hander is a lot more damage than tripling the damage of a 42 DMG 1hander. In fact the triple damage kikoku proc will barely outdamage a normal swing of Apoc (possibly not even that, depending on how much attack each of them has) and probably fall short of an Apoc crit (let alone proc).

Still swings more. Spharai is a pinnacle example. It's insane that they basically get to dual wield relics. With a nice haste build, they could be slamming non-stop. The only reason they're the lolSpharai is because Destroyers are so good. It doesn't mean their relic is weak.

And aren't you assuming that the relic katana user is not dual-wielding? It may be worthwhile to do that given how powerful the relic is, but they give up a lot of DW-haste (some of it a job trait that they can't replace with other equipment) to do that. If they *are* dual wielding the relic with anything else, their overall swing time won't be that different from the 2her, assuming Haste and haste gear for both.

Correct, I thought about this. However, even Dual Wielding Relic with some other Relic would give you a chance to swing more frequently than a DRK. Because you're a NIN and you swing all the time, you get that.

Most of the one handers, I suppose, are quite balanced in that it's the jobs that need it. I don't think a BST actually -wants- double-triple damage though...

Actually, it's +80 mp, per mp user in the party, per minute (with double ballad).

D'oh! I came back to this thread with the intention of changing that number, but I see you beat me to it. As you likely guessed, I was thinking of the number that Auto-refresh gives you.

Bravura

I've seen nothing on it since the SAM update. Extra damage on the 2x damage 10% of the time, but Ridill does extra damage and tp 50-66% of the time. Most of the Bravura-threads were at the height of dual axe-dom though. So even the people with Bravuras seemed to be skewed towards dual wield. It really does have some of the best added effects. But statistically, it wouldn't give -the user- as high of damage as Ridill.

[Karinya]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

In order to avoid exponentially increasing post sizes, I have also responded to only parts of your post.

I think the Jailer weapons are superb, because they're not incredibly potent, and they require a decent sacrifice. Though I'd still rather we didn't have multi-hitters so that DRKs could get a better 2hour.

I agree on both points. But I was just pointing out that they are, intentionally, weaker than the 2 really powerful old multihitters - even though they come from harder fights and you would normally expect them to be stronger than something that drops off a (comparative) wimp like LoO or Faf (let alone a BCNM60, sheesh).

(re: Bravura)
I've seen nothing on it since the SAM update. Extra damage on the 2x damage 10% of the time, but Ridill does extra damage and tp 50-66% of the time. Most of the Bravura-threads were at the height of dual axe-dom though. So even the people with Bravuras seemed to be skewed towards dual wield. It really does have some of the best added effects. But statistically, it wouldn't give -the user- as high of damage as Ridill.

I dunno. A lot depends on how they are otherwise equipped. You'd have to be insane to equip a WAR/SAM using an A+ weapon with Hasso and +20 acc on the weapon the same as a WAR/NIN using A- and B weapons with no acc traits or JAs besides aggressor and no acc on your weapons.

The WAR/SAM has 37 more acc than the WAR/NIN's *main* hand, before counting gear other than weapons. 56 acc more than the ridill hand. If sea torques are in use, the WAR/SAM gets +7 to his only weapon and the WAR/NIN has to choose one weapon to get +7 skill to (outside of WS, when probably both will be swapping in gorgets). On top of that the WAR/SAM can have full merits to the skill of the only weapon he's using, while the WAR/NIN has to split. No matter what split he chooses he'll end up even further behind on at least one hand. Base attack gaps are smaller, but still there (especially with the merits and torques included). And the /SAM also has more STR, both because of SAM's naturally high STR and because of Hasso.

That means the WAR/SAM can wear a lot more atk and haste gear while the WAR/NIN has to wear a ton of acc, or worse (from an atk standpoint), eat sushi. Ridill's proc can't stack with the DA trait, merits, and +DA gear; Bravura's can. So the WAR/NIN is going to have a hard time competing in DoT, even if he can stay ahead in TP when the WAR/SAM isn't meditating. (Which he probably can, but only by sacrificing a significant amount of his already poorer ATK). And the WAR/SAM's superior atk and STR is going to be reflected in his WS damage too.

I'm of course neglecting the eva down proc and the armor break effect of Metatron Torment because both WARs benefit from them if they're in a party together - but this isn't entirely fair, because if they're alternative choices for the one slot left in your party then those effects make a big difference in which one you should choose.


A lot of the old analyses are going to be obsolete - in addition to the introduction of Hasso (and +10 acc, +5 str, +10% haste that takes up no equipment slots is pretty huge in its own right), skill merits and sea torques don't fully benefit a mixed DW setup; you can't fully skill-merit two weapon types (even with no other combat skill merits) and no sea torque gives skill to two one-handed weapons at once.

[Lmnop]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

-you can always dual wield swords

-no "hardcore" Ridill war is gonna have less than 6 merits in sword

-I can only hope someone with Bravura reads your post and realizes just how much of a shot it's worth to war/sam an exp party with it.

-Drg/Sam with big G. They would lower the mob's defense and that'd be grand. They'd deal great damage, and that'd be grand. They may as well use Penta Thrust or Wheeling Thrust or even Skewer than use Geirskogul. Who cares about additional SC potential in this day and age, anyway? Who cares about a WS that'll just make you errr shocky.

Maybe I'm not realizing that these shock spikes are super? Are they stunning the mob every time it hits the DRG? And I guess they were designed so that a THF could trick onto a DRG and he'd be able to tank better because he keeps stunning the mob? And of course, it's nifty for solo.

But honestly, these weapons were made when their functions for these things were poor. The Shock Spikes is probably be based off of your enhancing magic skill that you don't have. It'll stun maybe 1 in 10? I'd like to see some info on this.

Still, could've been something like "additional effect: Restore Wyvern HP."

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

.
Still, could've been something like "additional effect: Restore Wyvern HP."

but my wyvern barely takes damage, ill take the spikes =P

[Empedocles]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?



I think the general consensus(sp?) Skoal, is that Dragoon would most likely not benefit all that much from a Multi-Hit Polearm.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Benefit or not, I WANT A MULTI-HIT POLEARM AT LEAST!!

It's a toy. Most multi-hit weapons are toys. Minus the Sea-Type weapons, only Axe, Great Axe and Polearm lacks a multi-hit weapon.

PS. Does hand-to-hand need one?

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Benefit or not, I WANT A MULTI-HIT POLEARM AT LEAST!!
It's a toy. Most multi-hit weapons are toys. Minus the Sea-Type weapons, only Axe, Great Axe and Polearm lacks a multi-hit weapon.
PS. Does hand-to-hand need one?

who said we needed it to benefit the job class? ill take the toy to mess around with (^.^)b. And Monks already do it with both hands so no.

[Skoal]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Benefit or not, I WANT A MULTI-HIT POLEARM AT LEAST!!

It's a toy. Most multi-hit weapons are toys. Minus the Sea-Type weapons, only Axe, Great Axe and Polearm lacks a multi-hit weapon.

PS. Does hand-to-hand need one?

Amood is the GA one.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Amood is the GA one.

Oh that, I forgot. I don't really count that one tho, need one that works full time with no need on dependencies on other factors (moon, stones, HP% etc)

I might post a suggestion to SE in that forum.

"I want a multi-hit polearm. Period."

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

lets raid the gm's building we might be able to steal the tp nerf back.

[Skoal]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

LOL I didn't see Empedocles's derailment post until now.