Multi Hit Polearm?

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I haven't seen one person yet complain about Excalibur. lol Though I guess the HP>Damage effect could be a bit limited if they were a taru.

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

lilithangel thanks for the wall of text you said alot of great things that i didnt have the energy to say but im starting up my gungir with in the month, ill just pray they upgrade its stats once im there =P

[Karinya]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

If someone expects their relic to do triple damage on every hit (rather than "only" 10% in addition to all their other benefits), they expect what should never exist in this game or any other. Nobody can "deserve" that kind of game breaking for any effort, let alone for accumulating a bunch of tradeable, sellable items. (I also think that nobody can possibly deserve ridill or kclub at their current power level, but the existence of some overpowered items should not be used as justification for the creation of others.) Nobody deserves to be better than two people, unless the two people are actively *bad* (not just "only" fairly well equipped). Probably not even one and a half people.

I've seen people with Aegis and it's not game breaking. They die less, certainly, but they still can die. And extremely powerful tanking or support can't change the nature of an encounter the way extremely powerful damage can (hi2u 5 minute Kirin) because you can't tank a mob to death. Most HNMs have so much AOE and/or squirrely hate behavior that an immortal tank (even if you had one, which you don't) wouldn't have *that* much effect on the encounter - you probably have at least 2-3 reserve tanks outside the alliance anyway, except in Dynamis and Limbus. The people, the strategy and the execution of that strategy will still dominate the effect of gear, including Aegis.

The reason people think Aegis is a bigger deal is that one tank with Aegis can be as much as 50% of your tanks actively fighting at any given time; to match that in DD you would need 50% of your DDs to have completed relics, and nobody is even near that point that I know of. The effect of better gear on one DD out of a crowd of DD just isn't going to be as great for the LS's overall performance, regardless of how big an effect it is on that DD's personal damage.

I would have preferred for every final relic upgrade to require Dynamis Lord's skull as a component instead of the currency-based restriction we have (although it would lead to even more competition over Xarc, at least it would be the right kind of difficult). But regardless of exactly how relics are acquired, their power level is about right - strong, certainly stronger than anything else, but not too strong. If you don't think it's worth the effort, do something else.


P.S. Sev: If gungnir is the only challenge left, does that mean you already have love halberd, torque and mars's ring? Impressive. But surely you must know that only a very small percentage even of 75s are at that point (and that you already very substantially outperform the ones that aren't).

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

That would be kind or cool actually Kar. I can see it now...

You find a Dynamis Lord skull on the Dynamis Lord
Bob lots 337 on the Dynamis Lord skull
Jim lots 246 on the Dynamis Lord skull
<Bob> Whoohoo! Aegis {Found it!}
<Steve> Congratulations! Everyone pass!
Jim begins casting Warp II on Bob
Jim casts Warp II on Bob
Bob disappears!
Jim obtains a Dynamis Lord skull
<Jim> Yes! Claustrum {Yes please.}

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

P.S. Sev: If gungnir is the only challenge left, does that mean you already have love halberd, torque and mars's ring? Impressive. But surely you must know that only a very small percentage even of 75s are at that point (and that you already very substantially outperform the ones that aren't).

Actaully No i dont have a love halberd or torque the reason there isnt one LS here that does sea to my knowledge that doesnt bot. I have been in a LS that bots and im over it. I will never see Full Heca on my DRG and you know what im ok with that. As well as gear for my war (ridill). But out of respect let me rephrase Gungir is the last challenge i have w/o selling my gaming morals for gear.

[Taskmage]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Going strictly by the numbers, even if we assume that the difference in damage rating between the Mezraq and Gungnir is negligable, 3x damage on 10% of the hits means that on normal swings a Gungnir-using drg will do 20% more damage than an otherwise equally equipped and skilled drg using Mezraq. I'm given to understand that effect can not proc on WS, so it's actually a little less, but still far from insignificant imo.

That said, I agree with Lilith that this is not a reasonable cost-reward ratio at all. Someone who invests a nine digit gil sum and a year or more of effort into a single item should get a huge reward. Should it be 200x better than the weapon that's 1/200th the price? No, clearly that's unreasonable as well, but is say double damage really so much to ask? What would that really break?

I know you're very vocal about not giving the players too much power and thus making the game too easy, which is a position I understand and respect, but how much harm would we really be talking about if all relic owners suddenly doubled in damage output? In endgame alliance-type situations we're talking about a very small increase in overall damage. I'm in one of the older NA dynamis linkshells in Lakshmi and I think we have two relic weapons among us. So if 16 DDs show up to an event and two of them are relic owners then we'd effectively be running with 18. Gamebreaking? I don't really think so. Enough of a difference to notice? Maybe, and I think that's as it should be. In HNM we're talking about basically the same type of difference, though I confess total ignorance as to the prevalence of melee in HNM. BCNMs and all the CoP missions that are commonly referenced for difficulty are all level capped so they'd be entirely unaffected. I can only think of a couple paying KSNMs that even have a melee-friendly strategy, so if that changes from the power increase great.

Concerning merit parties, we're talking about perhaps one merit party per server at any given time that's killing 20% faster than they would be without a relic weapon, a variance not uncommonly seen between parties of differing skill. Really, even that number is inflated, since nearly half the relic weapons consist of Mandau, Excalibur, and Kikoku, weapons for jobs not generally thought of as prime DD. According to ffxiah there are only 408 relic weapons in existence, or about a dozen per server. We would have to generously assume that each of those people plays for 30 hours a week and spends half their time meriting to even reach my estimate of one relic weapon in an active merit party at any given time.

In something like assault, which can be uncapped and contains challenges that are already very well balanced you might see a significant drop in difficulty, but again we're talking about a very miniscule amount of the player population that would even experience this, and since progress in assault is already limited by the number of tags you get we still wouldn't see these players taking great strides ahead of normal players.

In solo, obviously, is where you'd see the biggest difference, but even at that damage output isn't really the limiting factor in the solo capabilities of most classes. I think at worst you'd see another Avesta-like character emerge that both has the unreasonably good equipment and knows how to use it to full effect. Perhaps that job would get more attention or be thought of as overpowered, but others would point out just as quickly that "nobody" has that kind of equipment and there wouldn't be an overall negative effect on the game.

Of course I would never actually expect something like doubling the damage of a class of weapons, but I think that based on the sheer rarity and difficulty of these weapons to obtain, asking for them to be hands-down superior to other weapons of their type by a significant factor isn't as unreasonable as you make it out to be.

[Skoal]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I haven't seen one person yet complain about Excalibur. lol Though I guess the HP>Damage effect could be a bit limited if they were a taru.

Funny you mentioned the taru. I just saw one today when I was at home for lunch that had an excalibur.

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

/clap Taskmage

[Lmnop]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I think I'm somewhere inbetween on this debate. The more I read from Karinya, the more I realize she's right. But all the same...

I also think that nobody can possibly deserve ridill or kclub at their current power level, but the existence of some overpowered items should not be used as justification for the creation of others.

Coulda fooled me. Soboro, all the Jailer weapons, the Mercurial weapons - they all came out around the same time. And if I had to guess, it was an attempt to make every job feel as special as Ridill Warriors. Well, you're still right. They shouldn't be, but it often happens.

Nobody deserves to be better than two people, unless the two people are actively *bad* (not just "only" fairly well equipped). Probably not even one and a half people.

Jobs already do a good enough of discriminating like this. Let's say you're killing Ash Dragon, and you can only bring 4 people. For the sake of argument, all 4 of you have Maat's Caps. Will any of those 4 people bring DD jobs? Or will they bring Ninja? Would one bring his DRG even if he had Gungnir?

Ever notice that the Relics aren't balanced? All the 2 handers seem to do double damage while the one handers do 2.5-3x damage. Doesn't this seem strange, logistically? Relic Katana (Kikoku or something? Someone said it earlier and I'm not gonna scroll up to find it) will likely swing every 2.5 seconds or so. And when that time comes, you have a 10% chance of triple damage, in addition to your already sick ninja DoT. Let's say you're a Drk toting Scourge. Since you have a Relic, you better have a good Haste set, so your swings are every ~5 seconds, instead of the normal 7ish. So every 5 seconds, you have a chance to deal Double damage. Does this make sense yet? Or does my logic fail?

Honestly. All I really want from Relics is for them to be balanced with each other. Claustrum can't replace HQ staves, what?!?!?!? Great Katana does attack down and it's WS gives Store TP+7 (yay? the GK that Absolute Virtue drops gives Store TP+8 all the time). Meanwhile, Bravura gives evasion down on normal hits, defense down on weapon skill, with additional effect: reduces Damage Taken. Talk about a loaded weapon. Too bad it can't compete with Ridill or even +20 mp/minute (that'd be the Relic Horn, of course).

Every Relic should've required a decent chunk of Currency, as well as a collection of rare/ex items from hard bosses in all of the original dynamis'. And perhaps, a bunch of out-of-Dynamis things (think Hakutaku).

Honestly, I think that if people embraced the extra Skillchain potential of Relic Weapon skills, we wouldn't have nearly as many of these threads. The funny thing about 5 minute Kirin is that I feel that it's closer to how the game was supposed to be played. I think they did it over-the-top with melee and outside cures, but would it be so bad to have a -gasp- mix of melee and magery on big things?

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Funny you mentioned the taru. I just saw one today when I was at home for lunch that had an excalibur.

There's a taru pld that ran with my dynamis shell a couple of times. He has Excalibur and Aegis.

[Malacite]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

logistically?

You mean logically


And I'm going with Taskmage on this one, he hit it right on the nail. Relics are probably the worst example of Effort vs Reward I have ever seen and SE really should be ashamed of themselves.

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that relics are optional. Sure they take a ton of work. No one has to get them done if they don't think its worth it. If they do think its worth it, more power to them.

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

There's a taru pld that ran with my dynamis shell a couple of times. He has Excalibur and Aegis.

poor guys has way too much time on his hands lol

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

poor guys has way too much time on his hands lol

way too much money too. he was the first 100+ Goldsmither on Valefor so he made some heavy gil for a while. he's the first name on the AH list buying an Aristocrat's Coat... for 100 mil.

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

way too much money too. he was the first 100+ Goldsmither on Valefor so he made some heavy gil for a while. he's the first name on the AH list buying an Aristocrat's Coat... for 100 mil.

so lets get a taru for a fall guy jack him up take his gil and leave the taru to get banned >.>