Multi Hit Polearm?

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

jp ls on ifrit is on relic 8 i believe from what i have been told and have 2=3 others finishing up as well they just busting out relics

[LadyKiKi]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I still use Martial Lance ...

*KiKi hides in a corner.

I died on a BCNM run on DRG. I'm at 74 now. ... need to quickly solo it back to 75.

No Mezraq yet, still saving ...

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

how much are mez on your server people are shout selling them for under 750k here lol

[Sidra]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I don't think that the Mezraq comes even close to stepping on Gungnir's toes. 6 base damage difference, no random triple dmg proc, and no potent 1 hit WS. Also don't forget about the 20 Accuracy.

There is still room for a new lance considerably better than the mezra that still is far enough behind Gungnir to make it worth the effort.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I don't think that the Mezraq comes even close to stepping on Gungnir's toes. 6 base damage difference, no random triple dmg proc, and no potent 1 hit WS. Also don't forget about the 20 Accuracy.

I've parsed Mighty Lance on Firesday against Mezraq, and if 5 base damage is barely noticeable, 6 won't be either. The random damage multiplier on the Relics has been reported to be roughly 10%, so call it a super crit if you like, but it's not enough to really pull ahead much. As for Gierskogul, most of the Dragoons that have Big G have come to this general consensus:

Impulse Drive is to Double Thrust as Gierskogul is to Wheeling Thrust.

In other words, nothing special. Wait, nevermind, I retract that. "Uber" Shock Spikes.

The 20 Accuracy is indeed something good on a weapon, but depending on your setup, you won't see much use out of it (either you're going Acc setup, eating meat, and you'll hit your cap, or you're going STR/Att, and eating sushi, so you're at cap anyways). You could use Big G to replace both SH and O Hat, and swap in STR/Att gear, but that's about it. To me, a Relic weapon should be *so* much more than simply a "replacement" for other gear (i.e. not the weapon that it's replacing).

As far as it "not being fair" to complain about the Relics, tell me, how is it fair to the people that've put the time, gil, and effort to get all the other gear that's "the best" for a job, then work the few years/whatever it takes to get the Relic, then find out that what they had just before is almost as good/better than the Relic? It's not. Not one bit. And if that person put all that effort to be good before the Relic, they *absolutely* deserve a weapon that eclipses what they had before.

One puts in that much effort to get the gil, items, resources, and public contacts/networking that goes into a Relic, you better damn believe they expect to have fights be easier. Again, if it's not, then what's the point? I know I can't be the only one that takes issue with how badly designed the Relics other than Aegisjaller are.

Mr. Aegis is an idiot, and doesn't deserve that shield, if he can't figure out to simply turn around.

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

The 20 Accuracy is indeed something good on a weapon, but depending on your setup, you won't see much use out of it (either you're going Acc setup, eating meat, and you'll hit your cap, or you're going STR/Att, and eating sushi, so you're at cap anyways)

hey with my tp set up and gungir i could hit 99.9% on anything lmao, all the gungir will do as lilithangel pointed to was add acc to most end game drg have alot of it maxed out for tp gain and dot on gods/hnm.

As much as i hate to say it gungir is kind of a dissapointment in relics (not saying i dont want one still)

[Sidra]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

You are being unfair to Gierskogul. Against weak mobs, Penta Thrust is more potent. But the amount of damage it can do on Fafhogg, Wyrms, and other harder enemies versus what Wheeling Thrust does is quit large. It has a 3.0 fTP mod. That is quite potent, and I'd happily take a weaponskill that does 600 damage to Fafnir as opposed to 400 or lets me Sneak Attack Weaponskill a God or Tiamat for 1100 as opposed to 700-800 at 100TP.

Also, you are incorrect about the attack cap. It takes well over 700 attack to cap ATT/DEF on most XP mobs (and copnsiderably higher on HNM). Even given meat, berserk, and a minuet you still have a ways to go. The 20 accuracy does free up other slots for str/att that is beneficial.

[Lmnop]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

ideally, a Relic weapon would mean that no HNMLS would deny you the right to melee anything. A Drg with G-slice should be on Tiamat full time.

But obviously, this game wasn't designed brilliant enough for that.

S-E gave mobs tp, just like players, in an effort to avoid the pitfall of other games: Zerging. Throwing 18 people at mob instead of 6 means 3x as much tp for said mob. This is a very clever balancing factor, but they really overdid it. They should get 1/3rd tp, just like players do. Instead they get (your tp/swing)+3.

They gave "uber" stats, but seriously. It's not like they'll perform any differently on Kirin. +20 mp/minute means something. Never taking significant damage means something. Light->Light skillchains were supposed to mean something -- honestly, I'm not sure why it doesn't. I guess free nuking is just much easier.

Relic weapons were designed when the best thing a Dragoon could equip on his feet gave them attack+4. If they wanted better, they had to contend with rediculous amounts of +slow%.

80% of the gear in this game is just taking up space. :/ the AH is starting to look like food did before the food update.

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

You are being unfair to Gierskogul. Against weak mobs, Penta Thrust is more potent. But the amount of damage it can do on Fafhogg, Wyrms, and other harder enemies versus what Wheeling Thrust does is quit large. It has a 3.0 fTP mod. That is quite potent.

Ws wise Sidra ive heard it amazing there is a jp dragoon on my server with it. Some of the jps said Gierkogul is just plan amazing. But outside the ws the gungir really lacks that wow factor that makes it 100x better then the mezraq.

[Karinya]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

But that's the point - if it were 100x better, you'd kill HNMs in one WS.

There's a limit on how much gear can add to a character's power before it starts trivializing encounters, and SE (wisely, IMO) intentionally set the power limit on gear lower than other MMOs.

It's not what you're wearing, it's who you have with you, how good your strategy is and how good you are at carrying it out that defines success in a challenging FFXI encounter. Equipment can help, but it won't make you succeed (or fail). And I, for one, like it like that. A super-kill-everything-instantly weapon would be fun for about a day and then you'd realize there's nothing left to do in the game.

If anyone really thinks that a 10% chance to do triple damage - that can proc ON a crit or WS - in addition to 20 acc, higher damage than any other lance and a unique WS is insignificant, they really need to look up "insignificant" in the dictionary, because it doesn't mean what they think it means. Gungnir won't win your fights for you - nor should it - but I bet it doesn't take hours of parsing to tell the difference between it and Mezraq, either.

[Empedocles]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

ok guys, I have to agree with Karinya here... on the topic of Gungnir being weak,at least it's not Apocalypse...

Oh and before I type more crap, SevIfrit changed his picture!

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

But that's the point - if it were 100x better, you'd kill HNMs in one WS.
There's a limit on how much gear can add to a character's power before it starts trivializing encounters, and SE (wisely, IMO) intentionally set the power limit on gear lower than other MMOs.
It's not what you're wearing, it's who you have with you, how good your strategy is and how good you are at carrying it out that defines success in a challenging FFXI encounter. Equipment can help, but it won't make you succeed (or fail). And I, for one, like it like that. A super-kill-everything-instantly weapon would be fun for about a day and then you'd realize there's nothing left to do in the game.
If anyone really thinks that a 10% chance to do triple damage - that can proc ON a crit or WS - in addition to 20 acc, higher damage than any other lance and a unique WS is insignificant, they really need to look up "insignificant" in the dictionary, because it doesn't mean what they think it means. Gungnir won't win your fights for you - nor should it - but I bet it doesn't take hours of parsing to tell the difference between it and Mezraq, either.

Ok not sure if this was directed just at me or a general comment but I will respond for myself. I never said it was "insignificant", hell I was the NA/EU Player on ifrit going for the Gungir, because it is amazing the ws and just highest delay as well as triple damage. I wasnt asking for a one shot lance i was just saying for the difference in stats (not counting the ws) with the mezraq pulling a close second and only costing ~600k on my server, i jut WISHED it had a bigger gap between the two. And I would trade that 20 acc for 20 attack on the lance any day of the week. Will and am I going for the gungir still of course looking in my sig, it is the one thing I want in this game that is a challenge.

ok guys, I have to agree with Karinya here... on the topic of Gungnir being weak,at least it's not Apocalypse...
Oh and before I type more crap, SevIfrit changed his picture!

Ya lol thanks to Eohmer! that was somewhere on this thread lmao, oh and /derail wasnt this about Multihit polearm not a gungir bash lmao.

[Sidra]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Relic Weapons are made to make you considerably better at your job, not change the manner in which you play the job. What I mean by that is that you should not all of a sudden start mele'ing things thar were previously un-meleable. Tactics really should not change. You do the exact same things that you did before, but now when you do the you do about 20% more damage than you did before.

The exception to this would be Ghjallorn (sp?) and to a lesser extent Aegis. Those 2 weapons can change tactics.

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

The exception to this would be Ghjallorn (sp?) and to a lesser extent Aegis. Those 2 weapons can change tactics.

no they just break the game, they really are on a different level then any of the other relics.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Yeah, that's the point of Relics, to make one better, but I disagree by how much of a degree that they make one better. My stance is that they don't perform *well enough* to make the effort worth it; either reduce the total costs to attain them to fall in line with their relative power upgrade, or increase their effectiveness *significantly* to make thier current costs worth it.

As far as the whole not knowing the meaning behind certain words, tell that to the people that actually *have* the Relics. I tend to give more weight to the words of those that have the experience themselves than to what everyone "says" about the things. There's a DRK on Kujata that's rarely seen using his Apoc in combat, HNM/exp/otherwise, simply because he's more satisfied with some of the other weapons he gained from BS/KS/IS drops and the AH. I've seen Paladins and Red Mages who use Excal, and readily admit that it is an *insignificant* (omg that word!) improvement over what they normally use, and would *KILL* for a chance to use Ridill instead (WAR: "What's a Bravura? I dunno, I'mma keep spamming my Ridill LOL!"). Monks laugh at Spharai.

How much you wanna bet that the one Guttler in service amongst *all* of SE's customers... ...is still the only one in service (if you call it that ).

The point here is that some people want that much effort to be rewarded with an equally large and sustantial boost to thier performance, but will not recieve it due to the Relics other than Aegisjaller being an insigificant (yes, I said it again, and will continue to say it, because that's what it is) boost over the topline gear availiable through "normal" means. The key word in all my posts is *topline*. Not average, not "oh kewl, you got a XYZ", TOPLINE! As in, Dynamis/Limbus/Assault/Crafted/Quested/Some AH pieces.

If Gungnir (or all of the Relics, honestly) has to even *compete* against anything at all, then clearly something is wrong with the Relics. If a Samurai would rather use Soboro Sukehiro to power his Sidewinders instead of slice-and-dicing everything with Ame-no-Murakumo, something's wrong. If a Monk would rather spend a couple hours a day unlocking his fresh Destroyers instead of working up to Spharai, then something's wrong. If this whole thread/topic about a multi-hit Polearm surfacing brings up the point that there's no room bewteen Mezraq and Gungnir to put anything else in there, something is wrong! And it is clearly with how SE designed the Relics.

SE said they wanted to keep Relics rare. Well, the are doing a fine job of doing it by having an abysmally low drop rate (which i have no problem with, honestly), and making them barely worth going after in the first place. The argument in favor of the Relics fall on deaf ears when many who actually have them comment on how they're not that much better.


One last note: if anyone feels that I'm attacking them for what they said, I'm not. Honestly. But I also cannot sit by when people keep trying to defend something that, while looks good on paper, actually does not perform as advertised by the very people that have the items. I'm arguing that SE *should* significantly improve the Relics, based on thier cost in time, effort, gil, and social networking to obtain them. SE already has the means by which to keep them rare, there's no doubt about that, but in the end, why?

If you want to keep the challenge of "Not having mobs die in one shot", then by all means, you can do that. However, what of the person that actually went after and got thier Relic? Do they not deserve to be rewarded with such unprecidented melee prowess that they damn near achieve the "One Hit Wonders" status that it would afford? Yes, certainly, they put forth the effort, they deserve insane melee power. Do they get it? No. Not at all. They just spend millions in gil to find out they already had it 1-2 weapons ago.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel *strongly* about this subject, and I will not support the Relics as a *significant* improvement over a good endgame setup until SE actually fixes them.

(BTW, I was talking about Accuracy cap for *both* examples, not just one. Both setups hit Acc cap easily, thus nullifying G's +20.)