Multi Hit Polearm?

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Yeah, that was along the lines of what I meant. The Mez just sets the bar so high, it would be difficult to introduce anything that would draw many DRGs to it.

I should have specified that it would be nice to see a latent 'lance'. lol

[LilithAngel]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

There already is a latent polearm, but it's frequently panned because it's not a lance. FFXIclopedia lists it as D71 (active) DL396, with hidden Acc+5 Atk+24 (!) while active. If you're just looking at normal swings it's a great weapon, but dragoons also jump, and a low damage low delay spear does less damage per jump and returns less TP per jump than a lance.

The main problem with high level polearms IMO is that Mezraq is too good, it overshadows everything except Gungnir. That much raw damage would be amazing even without the eva down proc. They should have made it more like 90, or even 88, so that Orichalcum Lance, Stonesplitter, Gondo-Shizunori, Dreizack, Leviathan's Couse, Colossal Lance and Imperial Neza didn't all instantly become obsolete. Each of those weapons would have its advantages, and probably its adherents, 7 days a week (and on the eighth day Mighty Lance, too), if Mezraq didn't exist or had a little less DMG; now they're all junk. KS30, KS99, and ENM weapons shouldn't be so easily crushed by a simple crafted item.

I think they may have deliberately given DRG an overpowered weapon to combat player perception that it was a weak job, but the problem is that it never *was* a weak job; now it's a strong job with no variety in weapon selection. It's Mezraq or it's crap. And now that pretty much every DRG75 has one, nerfing Mezraq would nerf everyone who has a Mezraq, which would be horribly unpopular; but they're hardly likely to add 2-3 DMG to every other high level polearm to make something else worth using again.

QFT.

For eTick: Looking at DPS on Relics is pointless. They all have listed and/or hidden traits that kick in so randomly/often that trying to base your judgment on that alone doesn't do the weapon justice. Excal's DPS fluctuates so randomly and rapidly that the number written down has little meaning, while what's on paper for Apoc, Cat, Ame-No, and Big G is actually gimped compared to what they really do.

It's akin to someone saying "The sun is yellow" during a heatwave in the middle of summer in a desert.

"Yeah? Your point?"

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

lol

Yes, DPS is a broad generalization at times. No, no other lances are close to Gae Assail or Gungnir beyond the three that I mentioned. Sure, 'close' may be quite relative in this case. Yes, Gungnir is amazing. I realize that. I do find the comparison to Excalibur a bit ridiculous though. The hidden/latent effect on Excalibur deals damage proportionate to the user's HP, in addition to the occasional triple damage. Regardless, that doesn't take away from the Gungnir's overall allure. However, with all that said, I don't feel the difference between it and the Mezraq justifies the ludricrious cost, time and effort involved to get it. You might, others might, but at this point I don't.

To restate my original point. The addition of the Mezraq made us rather top heavy as far as endgame lances go. I don't see how they could introduce a high damage/multi-hit polearm without readjusting the cap on polearms as it stands now.

[Lmnop]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

i.e. any lance made to compete with Mez would be one more item to cut a bit of glory off of the Gungnir.

I honestly think every relic weapon needs re-worked. Shock Spikes? Mercy Stroke is STR based? All the 2 handers do 2x damage at best, i've heard, while the one handers - you know, the ones that swing more anyway - get up to 3x. Not to mention that all of the Relic WS animations are just recycled animations with new firework layers stacked on top of them. Oh, and their hidden effects are varying in uselessness.

Relic weapons leave me sour.

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

What? No reason Geirskogul shouldn't have AGI as the modifier... I mean its not like that goes against every equipment build we pretty much have or anything.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

As well as having it give us Shock Spikes cuz, y'know, Dragoons are asked to tank all the time against dragons cuz, y'know, we have Dragon Killer and all that jazz. Paladins have nothing on us, what with their Hrottis and Tatami Shields and Demon Earrings and whatnot...


[/sarcasm off]

Yeah, Big G (and all Relics, honestly) need to be reworked. Every Relic weapon should *absolutely* and *completely* DESTROY every single weapon in its class, no exceptions. Y'know, let them actually be called the Ultimate [Insert Weapon Class Here], and have it mean it. If they're designed to be as rare as SE said they want them to be, then go ahead and actually make them completely game-breaking. If it costs so much in resources and time, then yeah, let them be rediculously and insanely powerful; that's the point, isn't it?

The effort to go into a Relic is tremendous; everyone knows that. But for a lot of them, the cost vs. reward ratio isn't what it should be, and the effort would've been better spent on other gear and suitable substitutes (as far as weapons go). Aegis and Gjallerhorn are the only two that are universally lauded as useful, and they're not even technically weapons; that's sad in my book.

But enough ranting on Relics from me. As far as the OT is concerned, yeah, Mezraq pretty much stole most of Big G's thunder, and there's isn't much room to improve upon it w/o seriously risking Big G's status as a Relic. The only logical step would be to introduce a M-H Polearm that has a base DMG somewhere in the 80s that has a fairly high proc rate. After that, what else can SE come up with that's doesn't trump Big G? If one Relic gets changed, every one else will want theirs changed too.

"Well, Dragoon got their Gungnir changed, why can't I have my Apocalypse/Catastrophe/Ame-no-Murakumo/InsertRandomRelicHere changed too? /whine /bitch /moan /etc"

You get the picture.

[Malacite]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Forgot about Soboro lol >. <

But Soboro is also an exception; it's amazing because it allows a SAM to spam sidewinder for rediculous damage.


Anyway, back on topic:

Yeah, Big G (and all Relics, honestly) need to be reworked. Every Relic weapon should *absolutely* and *completely* DESTROY every single weapon in its class, no exceptions. Y'know, let them actually be called the Ultimate [Insert Weapon Class Here], and have it mean it. If they're designed to be as rare as SE said they want them to be, then go ahead and actually make them completely game-breaking. If it costs so much in resources and time, then yeah, let them be rediculously and insanely powerful; that's the point, isn't it?

The effort to go into a Relic is tremendous; everyone knows that. But for a lot of them, the cost vs. reward ratio isn't what it should be, and the effort would've been better spent on other gear and suitable substitutes (as far as weapons go). Aegis and Gjallerhorn are the only two that are universally lauded as useful, and they're not even technically weapons; that's sad in my book.

QFTMFT

Seriously, come on SE. Destroyers are THE perfect example; why the hell even bother with Spharai when you can get these and unlock them? The only reason spharai pulls ahead is because of the 2.5 damage mod, and just barely since it doesn't even work on WS, only regular hits.

SE really ought to make Relic a bit more attainable I think. Not saying they shouldn't be rare, but it's just too much; 1-3 people per server taking an entire year to get their relic? Come on SE. That's not my idea of fun.

I also think Relic Armor (especially the lol+1) should be a lot better. The drop rate on them sucks, and the mods just aren't good enough to me. AF was originally called "Final Armor" b4 the level cap went up past 60, and relic is supposed to be a stronger AF. Well, how about making it perform like "Final Armor" ?



Sorry for the thread derailment

[Karinya]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

The effort to go into a Relic is tremendous; everyone knows that. But for a lot of them, the cost vs. reward ratio isn't what it should be, and the effort would've been better spent on other gear and suitable substitutes (as far as weapons go).

I think that's intentional, and I also think it's a good thing. Unless you already have the best possible everything else, you probably should focus on getting everything else and *then* the relic weapon. But in the meantime you're making some progress, not just making your useless weapon slightly less useless.

Seeing everyone with a Gungnir would be even worse (IMO) than seeing everyone with a Mezraq.

The one thing I disagree with is making the primary barrier a matter of money. The NMs are practically trivial compared to accumulating 20,000 dynamis currency, which means that relic weapons are primarily the sign of a gilbuyer, and I think that's pretty sad. But the overall difficulty being so high is a good thing.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Unless you already have the best possible everything else, you probably should focus on getting everything else and *then* the relic weapon. But in the meantime you're making some progress, not just making your useless weapon slightly less useless.

I fully and absolutely agree with this. Relic should be the *last* thing anyone should go for once you've more or less gotten everything else that's good for the job. Unfortunately, they're nowhere near as good as they should be for such a type of quest/reward; compared to when you suggest a person gets them, they're only slighly better than prolly what you're packing now. That's completely wrong; a Relic weapon should *amazingly* outclass anything of its type. Period.

As far as I'm concerned, I've more or less got most of what coul be considered "the best" gear a Dragoon can get, outside of Ares's Set and a full Homam (damn Hecatomb to the blackest pits of Hell! I refuse to waste gil on that junk ), both of which requires a hefty expenditure on the player's part, as well as needing to have a LS or group of friends willing to do those things just to get that stuff for you. So when I look at Big G, I get rather upset for several reasons:

1> Compared to Mezraq, Big G just isn't all that.

2> I put in the effort to get Mezraq when it first came out, and I refused to pay the rediculous prices on the materials, so I mined them. All *four* of them (Khroma Ore). The drop rate for that ore in Mount Zhayolm is stupidly low. I feel as if I've already gotten my Relic, so why bother with the real one?

3> I often don't have the time to put into getting much Dynamis done lately, and it's a shame too, cus I'm about half done with my Relic Armor set (need body, helm, and belt).

4> This subject is where some of the old "loldrg" predjudice is still around. "Why are we gonna bother getting you Gungnir when we can get our lead Paladin/Bard/Loot-whore-and-ass-kisser-supreme Aegis/Gjallerhorn/WhateverRelicTheyWant and actually have that better serve the LS as a whole?" Yeah, stuff it; I'm collecting for a reason as well, and it's not just to cover my share of the cost of the run .


All that, for a Polearm that gives a crap hidden effect on its WS, a WS that's basically Wheeling Thrust 2, and a base DMG rating only marginally higher than the HQ of a *crafted* weapon. And that's just Polearm.

Don't get me started on Guttler.

[Karinya]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Unfortunately, they're nowhere near as good as they should be for such a type of quest/reward; compared to when you suggest a person gets them, they're only slighly better than prolly what you're packing now. That's completely wrong; a Relic weapon should *amazingly* outclass anything of its type. Period.

I strongly disagree. First, the difference is bigger than you're giving it credit for already. Second, and more importantly, it *shouldn't* be too big - because the performance difference between Gear X and Gear Y is also the performance difference between Player X (who has that gear) and Player Y (who doesn't), if both are equally competent at their jobs. Players shouldn't be defined by their gear.

This is something of a double bind for MMO designers: players want to have something to strive for after they reach the level cap, but if gear has too much impact on performance, the playerbase becomes divided into haves and have-nots, and game balance goes out the window.

Any encounter that is challenging to people in pretty good gear is necessarily less challenging to people in awesome gear, but if the size of the difference between the two is kept under control, the encounter can still be challenging to people in awesome gear. If not it becomes trivialized.

Worse, an encounter that is challenging to people in great gear can be completely insurmountable to people in average gear (if the difference between the two is sufficiently large). Then gear becomes an obstacle rather than a reward and you get people who can't even try Fight Y because they don't already have Gear X.

SE has avoided that trap so far, and I hope they continue to avoid it. And the main way they have avoided it is to keep a lid on the power, and thus the importance, of gear. Even Relics. Mr. Aegis dies to Throat Stab > Astral Flow just like anyone else.


P.S. If you recognize that they have a lower reward/cost ratio and that's why you're saving them till last, isn't it a bit unfair to then complain that when you get to them (having already gotten everything else you wanted) their reward/cost ratio is lower than everything else? Something has to be the lowest reward/cost or there would be no diminishing returns.

[Malacite]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

While I agree about the whole gear being too good thing, some relics really are underpowered (lolSpharai)

Also by it's not a likely scenario that a lot of people are going to suddenly come into posesion of game-breaking weapons.

Lastly, making the relics the all-powerful weapons they should be gives SE more room to create other weapons/armor at various power levels. I for one, am sick of the recent trend that leads to multitudes of similar end-game gear. AF+1, Relic, Assault Gear, Cursed Gear etc.... yes, there's a lot of good stuff out there, but it feels like there are too many similarly good/marginally better pieces for each slot.

How about something unique for a change, that's actually feasible to attain (lolSalvage)

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

I think that's intentional, and I also think it's a good thing. Unless you already have the best possible everything else, you probably should focus on getting everything else and *then* the relic weapon. But in the meantime you're making some progress, not just making your useless weapon slightly less useless.
Seeing everyone with a Gungnir would be even worse (IMO) than seeing everyone with a Mezraq.
The one thing I disagree with is making the primary barrier a matter of money. The NMs are practically trivial compared to accumulating 20,000 dynamis currency, which means that relic weapons are primarily the sign of a gilbuyer, and I think that's pretty sad. But the overall difficulty being so high is a good thing.

Most people dont go into making a relic solo there is a few on my server who are going to do a solo relic. Both are extremley rich crafters. Most Relics are "ls owned" lmao still love that part, but still not too many people can buy a relic. If you buy enough gil to purchase a relic you seriously in all due respect need to get a life lmao. Ill spend the 3 hours crafting then the couple weeks of working irl to buy that kind of gil. I went into on my own and ran out of gil, but the NMs are harder then getting gil, you can easily walk into the downs and buy 20,000 currency on any given night.

[Lmnop]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Relic Horn.

What can a Guttler do that could ever compare?

[Sevv]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

E peen +1

I just can say ya ill drop that kind of gil why because its not rel money so i dont really care if i spend it all lmao (^.^)b

[eticket109]

Re: Multi Hit Polearm?

Most of the completed relics I've known have been done through small 12-24 person farming shells. There's an offshoot of my dynamis shell that's completed 3 or 4 that way.