Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

[Raitox]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

DRG/SAM definitely got better, but I think WAR/SAM and SAM/WAR would still be better, them getting the benefits of Berserk and Double Attack, plus food, plus hasso.

[Lmnop]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

time between swings for melee weapons is always delay/60. Proven. People say 100 delay = 1 second for ranged attacks. I haven't personally seen conclusive evidence of this, but it seems a fair enough estimate.

Haste(Spell) is 15% Haste. 492 delay Lance is 8.2 second delay, 10% Haste would make it swing at a speed equivalent to 443 delay or 7.4 seconds... That doesn't seem right, someone check my math (492 - [10% of 492 = ] 49.2 = 442.8 delay, right). If that's correct, you can see how sizable a chunk that is. 8.1 swings/minute vs 7.3 swings/minute. Basically, one extra/minute. That means one swing's worth/tp every minute. I guess that's technically better than Double Attack's extra tp, as swinging only 8 times/minute means only 80% of a full swing's tp (you would need to swing 2 more times to statistically be equal considering DA's 10% proc rate) not to mention full swing's worth of tp on /sam is actually more with +15 or whatever from Store TP traits. Then Zanshin. Btw, the lower your accuracy, the more useful Zanshin becomes. By that train of thought, you could likely get away with even less accuracy gear.

Undoubtedly, Hasso/Seigan was introduced to put SAM, DRG, and DRK on even playing field with their A rank weapons with all the other DDs out there. To elaborate, I mean 70+ and merit parties.

War/sam cannot use jumps and meditate together to create a near-instant weapon skill effect (plus add'l dmg from Jumps) Nor can War use Abs-TP in tandem with Meditate for similarly devastating results. We already have a sub that allows us to increase dmg output while simultaneously vastly increasing defensive capabilities. Don't get me wrong, if I can get a party to let me /sam, I'll always do it over /nin, but that wasn't the intention of the update.

Re: equip swaps. blinking out is very irritating, but I still swap out from my DD set (which, thanks to partial AF, comes complete with +4 enmity) to a hate set just for provokes (hello, +17 enmity). I do what I gotta do... I think this is why I'm a Warrior and you're not. Drg likely enjoy the idea of being a "mobile, aggressive fighter whose determination is unmatched." For me, I like the "observant, disciplined fighter who thrives on the ever-changing battlefield." But back to the real world (haha, the real game world), for DRG's equip swaps, I would never expect something of that level, but swapping on AF body for short spurts (like between pulls or low on the chain#) for wyvern regen is always nice.

[Vyuru]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

Ok, so with Hasso it looks like you get in an extra swing every minute.

You miss out on double attack on jumps and WS, but how often does DA really kick in on those? Most likely not enough to be really taken into consideration. I rarely ever see extra TP after a WS, so I'm under the impression that it doesn't happen often.

So, with 7 hits/min (rounding down) toss in Store TP traits, and assuming average lance tp rate of 13tp/hit. Hmm, can't find exactly how much tp store tp II gives, so I know store tp I gives 1 tp, and I'll just assume that store tp II gives 2 tp, so +3 tp per hit. So a drg/sam would be getting 16tp/hit, at 7 hits that would be 112tp every minute assuming all hits connected.

Toss in jumps for 2x16tp for 32tp, and meditate gives 60tp when subbed correct? Jumps and Meditate won't be up every fight, but they will still be nice additions to tp gain... I must say this job combo is looking more appealing to me after doing the math.

Edit:

Forgot to mention that toss on haste on top of hasso, that would just be sick tp gain then, because haste does not reduce your tp/hit right?

And if you really wanted to, every 3 minutes toss up Meditate, jump, high jump, and you are almost at 100%tp, you might be able to toss out a self SC with that.

[Celeal]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

*off topic*

Have anyone tried or partied with other war/sam, drk/sam, drg/sam? Does 2-handed weapon + /sam becomes popular exp. party combo on your server?

On my server, I don't see any DD /sam at my level range yet.

Today I tried my level 62 WAR/SAM and formed my own party, just want to see how is SAM update feel like. Party was formed, head to Bhaflau Thickets, fighted 1 Date Eruca, and the NIN tank ditched the party after the fight.... I did not even have a chance to use Raging Rush...

/end rant

As for SAM/WAR, I tried it briefly in exp. party after the update. I really felt the improvement. I ended up switch back to my PLD, because the tank gtg and none LFG.

Today I have a chance to party with other SAM/WAR. Again, I ended up switch from WAR/SAM to PLD... karma, I guess. As I tank, I really feel the pressure from the hate generated by the SAM/WAR. The 10% increase attack speed from Hasso is really strong. From now on I would put SAM/WAR at the same level with MNK/WAR in terms of hate keeping.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

Since you are a merited dragoon and using Angon in parties, do you think that Angon is a suitable substitute for Berserk when you have a sub other than warrior? I'm just wondering if having Angon might have eased the difference between drg/sam and drg/war.

I've been using Angon for a while before the update, and I was surprised (unfortunately so) to not see too much of a difference while using /WAR. Once I leveled Samurai and started to use it post-update, I also noticed a marked increase in the amount by which Angon helped. Now, it may be because of the "newness" of working with /SAM that has altered my perception, or perhaps of the different ways my character is performing with the sub, I'm not sure, but I do believe Angon is performing a bit better under /SAM than it was under /WAR.

It may have something about how Dragoon would normally use Berserk versus normal Hasso use. I'm not sure about other Dragoons, but I tend to throw up Berserk just before I weapon skill, along with Warcry and Angon (if I can), and then immediately toss Berserk if I happen to be taking hits. My WS numbers didn't seem to improve too drastically if Angon was used, nor were they consistant (due to the occasional DA).

With /SAM, I normally have Hasso up, so when I Angon before a WS, the WS tends to have a higher, more consitant average compared to before, although they don't quite spike as high (although the several Crit merits help from time to time). I prefer this outcome, as I'm a fan of consistant damage, rather than risky, spike damage. Furthermore, I also have the fallback of Seigan/Third Eye if I pull hate, and I'm not losing out too much on offense by the loss of Hasso (from both the lowered level of loss of STR/ACC/Haste versus the 25%-of-my-attack-rating boost, and the fact that I get Hasso back much sooner than I would Berserk).

This is why I feel /SAM wins out over /WAR over time. If you need large spike damage *right now*, sure, /WAR's your sub. But most Dragoons don't (or can't) find themselves in such situations, thus the attractiveness of /SAM. So to answer your question, yes, I do feel that Angon will ease the loss of Berserk, to an extent. Obviously, the more merits you put into Angon, the more it'll ease this loss. Also, Angon helps not just yourself, either.

I recently aquired Empathy for my wyvern, and I'm going to test/practice with it's use over the next few days or so. I was hesitant over spending that many merits (as I get them so few and far in between) on a G2 ability, but it was either that, or Strafe, and I felt the need to follow my strategy of "consistant, over time" versus "spike". Hopefully it helps to round out my Dragoon even more. I'll let you know what I find.

[Vyuru]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

I haven't partied too much since the update, but I don't think I've seen too many /sams on my server, I saw a couple of war/sams, drk/sams, drg/sams, but I think the total number of /sam job combos in the 65-69 range was about 10 players. 2/3 drgs were /sam, I think I saw a rng/sam, 3/9ish drk were /sam, and I think the rest were either war/sam or mnk/sam.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

I've noticed that the /sam populations seems to be steadily increasing on Kujata, and of course, I've noticed that a lot of Dragoons are either trying /sam for the first time, or a lot of the Old Guard are going back to /sam.

Warriors seem reluctant to give /sam a try, but there's a few visionaries here and there.

Dark Knights seem split on the subject; on the one hand, thier melee performance is increased, but then they're having to deal with the stunted performance of thier magic. Some seem not to care, and focus purely on the melee aspect of the job, while others stay away from the sub like the plague (usually the ones who make exstensive use of thier magic).

Samurai, of course, are exstatic about the changes, and quite a few have given main tanking a try (with varied results).

[Vyuru]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

I'm not sure about other Dragoons, but I tend to throw up Berserk just before I weapon skill, along with Warcry and Angon (if I can), and then immediately toss Berserk if I happen to be taking hits.

So you're going for an increase to your WS damage with all of your buffs/debuffs then? Why don't you use Berserk to boost normal damage? Or does that draw too much attention from the monsters you are fighting?

[LilithAngel]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

It does. As it stands with my current gear/food choices, I tend to draw hate even if I'm simply doing nothing more than attacking; toss in a Weapon Skill, and I'm just asking for trouble. Therefore I often have to limit myself during my TP gain phase, only to unleash during my WSs. Thus I rarely see the full benefits of Berserk (and thus is why it's not as valuable to me as it seems to be to others). With Hasso, on the otherhand, I can boost my overall damage without sacrificing too much on WSs, and I draw less hate, while doing more damage. Also, if I happen to lose control over my hate, Seigan/Third Eye and a faster Super Jump /recast are there to help correct things. /WAR does not have these inherent defense mechanisms in place to ensure survival (lolDefender/Defense Bonus).

[Lmnop]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

point that you probably are already aware of -- since all JAs have an associated hate spike, you're best using them long before WS. Warcry is basically Provoke, so I usually use it once I get over 80% tp. Thus, I force myself to wait before WSing by simply not being able to. Berserk is a small hate spike, but I still try to use it when TP's low when I can't do the best option: use it right before engaging mob. I had a mnk a while ago who was so happy with himself and how much he was getting hate and dying, yet he'd engage mob, punch once (just enough to be on hate list) then activate dodge, focus, berserk, counterstance (<--- that one has a bit of a spike on it). Yay for 4 JAs worth of hate that you didn't need. if you stand next to a mob you haven't hit yet - even if party members are beating on it - and use Warcry, you won't get hate.

But yeah, in your case, Lilith, if you're not going to see a full 3 minutes of Berserk, /war is useless for you. And in particular, it's end-game merit parties where /war gets any melee too much hate, and that's where I've been preaching /sam's effectiveness to be at it's greatest.

Btw, Angon has more effect w/out berserk than it does with /war due to some diminishing returns. You get attack so high and as you increase it, your damage is still increasing but at a much slower rate. And Defense down does the same thing to your dmg as attack up, so yes, Angon should be more noticable as /sam. Thought that was like a 15 minute recast though. And Tomahawk (war defense down ability) has a warcry-esque hate spike attached to it, so I wouldn't be surprised if Angon has the same.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

I suspected as much with the Angon/Berserk relationship, but no, Angon doesn't have as much of a hate spike footprint as most other JAs to begin with (Super Jump, btw, has only enough of a hate footprint to keep you on the hate list if you got on there in the first place, but otherwise has none to use for claiming purposes; SJ cannot claim).

I tried to use Berserk before the mob ever got to camp on occasion. What I noticed was that the damage itself tended to draw more attention then the use of JAs at that point; while it was good and all, I drew larger amounts of enmity faster than if I just popped them all at once before a WS (which, by that time, the tank has had time to build enmity before me). So either way, Berserk's usefulness declined with increasing support from gear/food.

[Vyuru]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

Thought that was like a 15 minute recast though. And Tomahawk (war defense down ability) has a warcry-esque hate spike attached to it, so I wouldn't be surprised if Angon has the same.

Can't find the thread that talked about Angon, but I think it has a 5 minute recast timer (can be shortened to something like 3 minutes and duration can be increased to about 2 minutes I think) I haven't heard anything about how much hate it draws. Someone who actually has it would have to say for sure though.

I really might have to go and level samurai now then... Because I am starting to draw hate far to often in exp parties and High Jump and Super Jump just haven't been enough to keep it off of me.

How do multi hit weapon skills such as Pecking Fury and Goblin rush affect Seigan? Will it absorb all the hits or only some of them? I ask because it seems like blink and utsusemi will only lose one shadow when they are used.

[Celeal]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

Goblin Rush can move multiple shadows. On the other hand, before the SAM update, one Third Eye could anticipate all Goblin Rush attack.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

Angon
Recast: 3 minutes
Duration:
-Lv. 1: 30 seconds
-Lv. 2: 45 seconds
-Lv. 3: 60 seconds

Effect: Lowers Defense (roughly 20%)

That should answer that question.

As far as Seigan/Third Eye vs. Multi-hit attacks: S/TE will anticipate the *entire* attack (i.e. same as Utsu only using one shadow to eat an entire Asuran Fists that would have otherwise had all 8 hits connect). I saw this in action during both exp and Ballista (Triple Attacks from Abraxas and multiple Barrages/Asuran Fists/Guilliotines/whatevers from the opposing team in Ballista). AoE will wipe out Third Eye, just like shadows (found that out courtesy of a Blue Mage in same said Ballista and a few exp parties on my Samurai).

Hope that helps.

[nickofearth]

Re: Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

I tried /sam out after that patch. Granted I used meat instead of sushi... I was far from impressed by it. 5 str when sam main gets 10? lol 5 is nice but I'd rather have 10 too >.> Acc isn't really needed for me I'd rather have attack >.> Thank's for the offer but I'll keep /war, with sushi and str/atk (few peices of acc) gear for penta pwn.