How to control hate?

[Karinya]

I've been having a lot of fun with DRG lately, got it to 31 so far, but I have one big problem: too much hate. Especially after I hit 30 and got Acc Bonus and Berserk, it's very difficult for tanks to keep hate off me even if all I do is berserk *before* engaging, normal attacks and jump. If I get a crit or one of those 100+ jumps (are those jump crits?) or do a WS it's pretty much mine for the next 10+ seconds or sometimes even the rest of the fight.

Current gear as far as I remember:
Military Spear
Merc.Capt. Headgear
Spike Necklace
Beetle earrings +1 x2
Steam scale mail (nothing really good in this slot for a long time, it looks like)
Battle gloves
Courage ring x2
Wolf mantle +1
Brave belt
Republic subligar
Savage gaiters (RSE, +3 str)

Most exp mobs check low defense to me with food (mostly using dhalmel steak since I can never find dhalmel pie and still below the breakeven point for dhalmel vs. meatkabobs). I was a bit surprised on my way back from my last party to see some toughs checking low evasion, but I haven't seen an exp mob check low evasion yet.


It's probably only going to get worse when I go back to lances at 34, so what can I do about it? I don't really want to nerf my damage output by holding back on jumps/not using berserk, but I guess it beats being an MP sponge, unless there's some other alternative?

Note this is in parties without a THF - I haven't had a THF party yet since hitting 30, but even if a THF will solve the problem, I still have to be prepared for non-THF parties too.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: How to control hate?

Hold back. If the tank is bad, then wait a bit before you engage. And spread out your attacks, rather than piling it all in one go. Berserk does create a bit of hate, and hitting harder doesn't help. If you really need to, unlock from target and turn around, let the tank build up a bit of hate first. If this keeps up, you'll be having trouble in Garlaige when you fight bats, because of the bonus damage vs. Bats with a polearm.

[tdh]

Re: How to control hate?

At that level, hate isn't exactly locked down like it is later on. But one thing I find DRGs doing is Jump'n as soon as the mob shows up. So you land a 100+dmg Jump, then pop Berserk then landed a hit for 85dmg. You just put your name pretty high on the hate list while the tank has another 30 seconds before the next Provoke.

You may find there are times that you won't be able to use Berserk as often as you would like. There were times recently that I had to stop using Berserk all together due to fighting some of the Super Squishy's in ToAU areas. 1st Provoke, then Double Attack doing 125dmg+ each hit. SATA Might not pulled hate off me when I've just 'voked and landing nearly 300dmg. As much as we all like landing the big hits, sometimes you may want to hold back a little. At least until the tank has a larger lead on the Hate list.

[Lmnop]

Re: How to control hate?

I think Karinya was pointing out using berserk before engaging so that the action would go hate-free (she's not on hate list yet so no hate from activating). For me, I remember how hellish it was trying to tank for a good DRG in these levels. It's simply insane. It gets -slightly- better @35 with High Jump... well, not really. It really only seems to negate its own hate... at least the tanks get a lot better in the high 30s and into the 40s.

From my own (very) limited dragoon experience, it's very painful to not Jump whenever it's up. Every moment that the timer is up and you're not using it, you're wasting it (assuming you're under 100% tp. If @100, WS >> Jump, but this makes matters worse. see below).

The problem with this is that it definately puts you in the position where you're often jumping as soon as the monster comes to camp. To this end, Thieves sure are nice since it turns your high initial hate-gain into a turning advantage.

My suggestion will be a variation on how I operated with Monk (the king of pulling "the punches"(haha)) This is assuming no THF since you know what to do wiff'a thf around.

====================

be last to engage. stand around and look pretty (you're mithra, right? that shouldn't be too hard). Wait 'til tank vokes, use berserk if it's ready, then engage. Hopefully, your tank will be on his 2nd or 3rd attack (or 2nd attack round) when you land your first hit/jump combo.

After this, I usually turn around for another attack round (that's around 8 seconds to the Lance). From there I go to town for the rest of the fight. DRG may be able to do this less, since after the opening barrage, a lot of their hate is dispersed into their flying rodent's DoT (if you deal 30% of party damage and he does 10%, that's better than you getting all 40% of the party's hate). Also worthy of note: no matter what the tank, hate will will never be truely stable 'til around the time of 2nd voke. But being a career PLD, Karinya knows this well: the beginning is obviously your weakest time.

Sounds like you're losing a lot of damage, but it'll work out well. It's priceless what you gain in guilt-free DD (not being an MP sponge), not to mention that you shouldn't have to worry about hate for the rest of the fight.

Oh yea, one more thing: I like your gears. No stupid Leaping Boots or something rediculous "Pimp" (the players I always outparse anyway), but HQ of the stuff that matters, good build. Not afraid to use the Brave Belt. Good good. All good. I'm glad I don't tank for you.

[Armando]

Re: How to control hate?

I agree with what Lmnop said. Alternatively, try using a lower DMG/Delay weapon. The pro is you wouldn't have to alter your routine or skip/delay attacks (thus your TP gain would remain unharmed); the con is it doesn't give you the option of still going all-out if needed without having to lose your TP (i.e. switch weapon.) I'd probably just wait before engaging.

[LilithAngel]

Re: How to control hate?

Steam scale mail (nothing really good in this slot for a long time, it looks like)

If you're looking for an alternative, a good one would be these: Savage Separates

As a Mithra, the STR+ and HP+ will mesh well with your setup at those levels (assuming you have them). It'll do you a bit better than SSM, as all you're getting from that is some DEF and elemental resistances (which, as a Dragoon, don't do you really all that much). All the other gear are very well thought out choices (I used quite a bit of that same gear when I was around those levels myself).

And as for the other suggestions regarding the hate management issue, yeah, it kinda takes a little bit of getting used to, but you might have to wait a bit sometimes before engaging. Alternatively, you could do what I did: simply engage, use absolutely no ablilities, just swing your polearm of choice, and wait for the tank to 'cement' hate on himself. After around the second Provoke, it's usually safe to leak out a Jump here, a Weapon Skill there (assuming you're not part of a SC. Otherwise, your role, and hate issues, are already resolved.) Once you get into the 40s and above, you're gradually allowed to let more and more your damage out at the beginning as tanks gain more and more abilities and skill. High Jump and Super Jump (when you get them) really change the way you manage your damage.

[Skoal]

Re: How to control hate?

At my level I do both jumps after I use my weapon skill. I mostly party with thfs so I can pretty much do anything right before SATA Sharkbite or DE and the tank still gets hate. Seeing how you are worried about hate and the fact that you have good gear, I do not think it will take you long to come up with your own way of dealing with the hate.

[Karinya]

Re: How to control hate?

Oh well. I was kind of hoping for some kind of magic bullet so that I *wouldn't* have to hold back - it just feels so wrong not to jump when it's up, given its huge damage and TP potential.

But I guess not screwing up hate control is worth cutting back on my damage a bit - I've done it before on other jobs, I just didn't expect DRG to be the kind of hate monster BLM and DRK are.


Yes, I do have Savage Separates and plan to wear them, but +1 STR is not exactly overwhelming, especially for a high-value slot like body. It seems to be good until Jaridah Peti though, unless I'm missing something.

Oh yea, one more thing: I like your gears. No stupid Leaping Boots or something rediculous "Pimp" (the players I always outparse anyway), but HQ of the stuff that matters, good build. Not afraid to use the Brave Belt. Good good. All good. I'm glad I don't tank for you.

Thanks, I think. As for the brave belt, I'm a mithra, I have dex to burn.

Right now I'm trying to get my LS together to hunt Carmine Dobsonflies - although I don't know how the Voyager Sallet will stack up against Valk/Walk Mask, the Jaeger Ring should be good for quite a while.

[Lmnop]

Re: How to control hate?

I have a feeling that if you get a Voyager Sallet, you won't take it off.... ever.

I'm Elvaan. I plan on using Brave Belt when I level DRG. As for my comment about the rest of your gear, I just meant... well, normally people don't compliment other people on their gear unless they have the items that rank in the millions. But I think you have the best possible layout, and I wanted to compliment you on outfitting your DRG well. Also, being Mithra, I think Merc Headgear and your RSE booties are actually better than boots/hairpin since, as you said, you have DEX to burn.

Anyway, this is kinda a pointless post, you've been playing this game long enough to know what you're doing. Just... keep up the good work and stuff.

[Balodoth]

Re: How to control hate?

I dunno, I stole hate during those levels, but usually it only required a change in tactic, not lowering my damage output. For instance, jumping when the timer is up is fine, assuming the timer is up near the end of the battle. And time your TP for a mid-fight WS. In other words, it's not about lowering your damage, just spreading it throughout the fight.

Or you could go DRG/BRD and do some of your damage through party members via Minuet. And I think your ATK would be a couple points higher than /WAR at those levels (not considering berserk of course). But I doubt you want to try that.

[Mouser]

Re: How to control hate?

As folks have mentioned, the main thing you can do is engage only after the first voke. Don't WS until the mob is at 50% HP if you can help it. Don't immediately Jump after a WS - wait until you're around 50 TP (unless the mob is almost dea, then go crazy, relatively speaking).

At 35 you'll get High Jump. That, you should use immediately after a WS when it's available.

The long 'middle levels' of 40-70 are generally fairly safe hate-wise. Past 70, in melee burn style parties (and somewhat sloppy tanks) it starts to get dangerous again, and I find myself ususally holding off WSing until immediately after another player, not for a skill chain (though I'll make one if it makes sense), but to keep from shooting up the hate list. Waiting the last 10 seconds for Super Jump to cool down can be nerve wracking! (the fact that some of the better 70+ DRG gear has +enmity doesn't help any!).

[Aeni]

Re: How to control hate?

Who's tanking? That's the first thing I didn't see in the post.

Also, if you think you're having problems now, wait till you get pentathrust. However, by that time, you should have your next two jumps which does shed hate.

Double thrust will pull hate at that low level and a lot of it, unless you're fighting bones.

I hope you're not jumping the moment you are engaging the mob. That's equivalent to a DRK popping Souleater on engaging a mob.

You have to go with the flow of the battle. After a few levels, you'll get a feel for the fight and know when to do what at what times. If this is your first melee DD post 30, then I can understand, but you have WAR at least 37 and I think DRK too (looking at your RDM)

[Jethreal]

Re: How to control hate?

One thing I used to do (Drg 41), went on hiatus with Cor for a bit..I miss my rat of death, was hold off on Jump & Double jump till it should finish the mob off. After a few of these the mages will be resting and the puller leaving before the mobs quite dead. Just reverse your desire to put the hurt on till it should kill it off.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: How to control hate?

Who's tanking? That's the first thing I didn't see in the post.

Also, if you think you're having problems now, wait till you get pentathrust. However, by that time, you should have your next two jumps which does shed hate.

You have to go with the flow of the battle. After a few levels, you'll get a feel for the fight and know when to do what at what times. If this is your first melee DD post 30, then I can understand, but you have WAR at least 37 and I think DRK too (looking at your RDM)

People say Penta Thrust sucks for parties O_o. I don't know, never been in one ...

As for the flow of battle, it's a really good skill to pick up on it. In my opinion it's fun to see everyone try to "change phase" if something happens in a fight.

All jobs about that level are just "maturing" anyway, so it's quite common that each one isn't at its fullest potential yet.

[Lmnop]

Re: How to control hate?

But I guess not screwing up hate control is worth cutting back on my damage a bit - I've done it before on other jobs, I just didn't expect DRG to be the kind of hate monster BLM and DRK are.

She knows what she's doing, she was just hoping for another solution.

As for "controlling your battle flow" -- tp partners sometimes make it hard to do this. And Jump is great for putting your tp up to where it should be on time, making it hard to just regularly use at the end of every battle. For instance, what if a fight is almost over and you have 110% tp, but you're saving tp for the next mob? Jump is kinda pointless since you're effectively halving its benefit, and if you open the next fight with SC, there's gonna be mad hate on the closer (at least it won't be you! hahaha!). But let's say it's the oh-so-popular War/nin closing Distortion with Avalanche Axe. He'll blink the hits ok, but now you have a Jump timer that's been ready for 50 seconds and if you toss it out, both DDs will be above the tank. What do you do? Cope. Sometimes efficiency means having higher hate than the tank.

That's why I suggest every melee DD come to parties with a defense set and a full defense macro!