/Thf vs. /War

[Kravex]

On my first account back in 03, I managed to be the first NA Drg on Ragnarok.

Thusly, I had little to no help when needing advice on /subs, foods, equipment, ect.

I managed to get to 60, Using /War mainly. Eventually making it to 70 befor I retired to EQ2 and later WoW. I wouldn't recommend either game unless you like your MMOS in "Easy Mode".

So now I'm back, lvl 47 using /Thf. Every party I've been in has either not complained or been impressed with my damage.

Today I got my first tell asking to use /War. When I told him I preffer /Thf he replied with, "Fine, gimp yourself and keep seeking, noob.".

Completely baffled I tried to explain to him some mechanics of the game. /Thf with Str gear pre50 does Just as much, if not more Dmg then /War wich needs more Dex to compensate for the innate miss rate.

He came back with something about having a 50 Drg and he didnt need a lecture, Thf sub should never be used and welcome to Blist.

So I come here with a question. Have they made some kind of change to the game that made /War pre50 godly? I know to use /War 50+ for Double Attack, but befor that the SA DTs do massive damage and totaly out weigh the Str/Att bonus from /War.

I'm not argueing versatility, I know /War can help with Nin tanks, and be first voke, ect. /Thf is pure DD, and can do little else.

[Dryhus]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

My understanding is that for most melees, /WAR > /THF pre-60.

SA is a guaranteed crit on a WS, which is eh...nice. But WAR provides better DoT given the higher STR, and also Berserk, which will outweigh the extra damage from SA over its entire duration.

60+, /THF still will be outdamaged by /WAR but has additional utility as hate control. As such, a party will generally need no more than one THF or /THF melee...the rest of the melees can go /WAR for more damage.

The tiny DEX boost from /THF over /WAR won't count for anything. A 47 Hume DRG/WAR will have 2 less DEX than a 47 Hume DRG/THF. That is 1 Acc. A 47 Hume DRG/WAR will also have 3 more STR than a 47 Hume DRG/THF, which, for purposes of the damage formula, is 3 STR and ~1.5 Atk.

[Meatproduct]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

I used /THF on my DRG until about 35, then switched off to /WAR. While seeing spike damage on jumps with sneak attack is nice and all, berserk gives better DoT overall. And of course, you'll really start seeing differences between the two subs once you get more levels.

[Kravex]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

Thats exactly what I mean, 1.5Atk, even with Berserk the damage isnt gonna change alot. To bash someone for something like 1.5 Atk is madness.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

As a semi retired Dragoon, I'll add my two cents...

At 40, with /War, Food and Berserk and Regional Control dependant I was pushing 300 attack. 297 to be precise. I couldn't get near that with /Thf.

Accuracy is your first consideration, followed by Str/Attack to get to Low Def, then to raise the damage bar.

One critical hit on a WS for me, didn't outweigh the constant DoT of Berserk. Post 60, /Thf becomes more argueable - but you're still sacrificing damage over time for a single hit.

That however, is just me. Everyone plays different.

So long as you do your job, which is deal damage - how you go about it is pretty much up to you, so long as you can validate why you're doing something. At least in my mind.

Hope that helps,

- Saeriel.

[Taskmage]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

At any rate, it doesn't seem like there's so much of a difference as to justify calling you a gimp n00b and blisting you. The difference seems to be in minor stat differences and in SA vs Berserk, either of which can be compensated for by gear.

[Sevv]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

Ok i have been going back and forth over /thf and /war alot especially seeing i kept trying to use both while lvling. but the diffence is purley this if u want ur ws (- any multihit ws) higher then use /thf. If you want a greater overall dot and greater mulit hit ws(ie penta and skewer) then use /war.

IMO /war much better for 1st voke if needed serk and now warcry do boost attack plenty and double attak is too much tp to give up. I have nver had a problem getting off good ws with /war and i always like defender and voke incase a tank goes down. But also I focus more on my dot then my ws mods. Att+ and Acc+

Main point ethier is fine play how you want and just make your own exp pts ull lvl quicker

[Kravex]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

When fighting ITs in a good party most melee damage from just about every job gets very low. Most ITs I hit for around 40-50, I made sure to bring my friend with me today, 48 Drg/War, basicly the same equipment as I have. He was landing 50-60s.

That sounds like alot of damage when you count it up over the hours. But he didnt seem to hit as often as I do and couldnt keep up in TP. Besides missing more his Double Thrusts were landing for 110-120ish at best, I regularly landed 190-260 in Quicksand Caves today. For every 3 he landed I had 4.

Wich only adds to my previous belief that if you /War you need more Acc, wich makes you give up more Str.

At this point I honestly think that geared correctly your going to get the same DOT from either sub.
/War +ACC/Dex to be a consistant DOT.
/Thf +ACC/Str to land harder hits.

If we can ever get another party together, we'll be 50+ next time, I'll make sure to downlaod a log parser and lay it to rest.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

On the note of actual scaling...

48 Drg/War has 2 less dex (1 accuracy ish) and 3 more strength than Drg/Thf.

TP gain is fairly subjective to race, gear, food and party setup.

Firstly - was his gear the same as yours? If he was missing accuracy gear... that would explain one reason why his tp was below yours.

Two - is he an Elvaan? Are you human? What racial differences might there be that are causing a stat descrepancy?

Three - what food was he eating? Were you over hunting? He may have a level on you, but - if you're overhunting and using Sushi and he's eating Meat, then that may be another reason.

Four - was he timing his jumps to maximise TP gain? Many time's I've seen Drg's Jump at inappropriate times, gaining them TP just as they were about to WS already over the 100tp mark.

Are you using a Lance, compared to his Spear? Is your weapon a +1, his NQ?

There's too many factors to say without bias that one sub is stronger than another without explaining why. Because in terms of pure stats.. there isn't a whole lot of difference between them. 3 Str will not net a 20% damage difference at that level range, neither will 2 Dex make the world stop revolving - or turn you into a 90% accuracy DD.

If you've got exactly the same stats (gear wise) - is his weapon underlevelled?

On a slightly seperate note: Any two-handed weapon should focus firstly on accuracy. Once at the point of bringing the mobs to Low Eva when checked, then pile on the Str/Attack gear. That goes without saying for any of the high delay weapons. Great Axe, Great Katana, Great Sword, Scythe, Lance. Actually - this is fairly good practice for all DD's, it's just more noticable when low delay weapons miss.

The only job where Dex should be used is Thf main. For SATA/SATAWS/SAWS, then swap in Accuracy for building TP's unless your running a build which is trying to maximise Critical Hits.

And in pure terms of DoT, once you've hit the required Accuracy to hit consistently, Berserk will allow you to push out higher numbers.

SA Jump is shiny though, as is SA Double Thrust.

Both sub jobs have merit and flaws...

- Saeriel

[Kravex]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

Agreed and Agreed.

Myself Hume 47/Thf
Friend Elvaan 48/War

Same weapons (He needs to upgrade)
Same Kabobs
I use Venerer and +3 Dex rings
He uses Venerer and +3 Str rings
I use Optic Earring and ... wtf is my other earring...
He uses 2 +3(maybe 4?)Atk Earrings
Both using Tilt belts (He needs to farm for a life belt)
Same Brig armor.
I use Walkure Mask
He uses Merc Capt.
Both using Battle gloves
I use Cent legs/boots
He uses some no stat legs/boots

We both Jump directly after a WS, at the start/end of each fight.
I was accually having trouble, I was getting 100+tp 15-20 seconds befor SA was ready. So most WSs were 120+%. The Party knew ahead of time that we were going to be testing Damage so we didnt do any SCs. Exept the Blu can solo SC and the Blm was MBing off him.

The Party was Pld/War, Drg/Thf, Drg/War, Blm/Whm, Whm/Blm, Blu/Whm. (Blu/Whm {Impossible to gauge!})

Neither of us have Penta yet so it was all Double thrusts, only pulling Beetles/Ants. All Vt/IT.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

Agreed and Agreed.

Myself Hume 47/Thf
Friend Elvaan 48/War

I love Elvaan.. but seriously, they'd have problems hitting the water if you threw one out of a boat.

You've got at least 6 points of raw accuracy over him. That's a difference of two levels.

If you put yourself against a Hume /War and parsed it... you'd notice very little in the accuracy department.

[Kravex]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

Assuming we generated TP at the same rate.

8hits x 13tp per = 104tp

Giving /War the benifit of 15 damage more then me per hit. (Bers is only 3/5 of the time.)

15damage x 8hits = 120damage more between each WS.

/War 115(average WS) + 120(damage done between WSs) = 235
/Thf 225(Average WS)

235 vs 225

I got Black Listed for 10 points of damage? ( I think I found a Sig :D)

[Spinnthrift]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

Moral of the story is - always have your subs flexible.

Dragoons don't always get the easiest invites in the world.. and if you're known to be easy going, able to change at will and regear for that - you'll get repeat invites, even if your performance isn't totally elite.

I personally swing /War, but if someone wanted me to /Thf for a fight - I'd probably do so without blinking. An invite is an invite and exp is just that - one small step towards another level. Hell - I've gone /Whm on request. ^^

- Saeriel

[Kravex]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

Moral of the story is - always have your subs flexible.

Agreed. Lesson of the day, If your asked to /Sub something you don't want/have, kindly {Thanks, but I'll have to pass}. Trying to educate someone who doesn't want to be educated can only end badly.

I'll be lvling War this weekend, funny part is, it's only 2 lvls under max.

[Nitecon]

Re: /Thf vs. /War

The Dragoon job class is unique in that it's role in any situation is defined by what sub job you choose.

For pure DoT in an xp party /war will always be the best choice regardless due to Berserk, Double Attack, and Warcry. Defender and Provoke are useful if you need to turn the mob for Thiefs and don't want to die because of our wafer thin defence. Also, the increase in TP gain with Double Attack is an added bonus.

Some players like to /thf because they don't like missing their WS and it provides you with that big WS number. However, in the long run, you do suffer from less DoT. The only real reason to /thf in my opinion is so that you can sata+ws onto the tank depending on your party set up. Steal and Mug are nice to have for getting some gil when xping, but thats nothing to write home about.

/whm and /rdm for healing breath, need I say more? And now, it seems /blu as well, I need to test this out personally but from what I've read it looks interesting as a solo sub job alternative.

/nin is rarely used in xp parties, only in special circumstances where you need shadows not to tank but to avoid taking damage from AoE and being an MP sponge or dying rendering you useless. Airship fight for CoP, Limbus, and certain high level xp camps are where I have used /nin effectively.

Personally, I will always go /war to an xp party. A well equiped Drg/war is one of if not the hardest hitting DD in the game pre-50. After 50 it gets harder and harder to keep up with the other melees, but it is possible.

At the lower levels you will be using Double Thrust to open most skillchains (Distortion) anyway, with decent gear and food you will not be missing this 2-hit WS much, so the skillchain will always open. Later on you will get Skewer (Distortion opener) which is a 3 hit WS. Sneak Attack doesn't really add that much damage to multi-hit weapon skills, and you get no damage bonus from Trick Attack, as /thf it only transfers hate.

At higher levels many Dragoons sub Thief so they don't miss Wheeling Thrust, a one-hit WS, and the big number syndrome probably plays a part in this too.

With decent accuracy gear and sushi, you will rarely miss Wheeling Thrust. When I xp'd in Bibiki Bay, I usually missed 2/3 Wheeling Thrust every 2 to 2.5 hours.

In the end, it is always useful to have as many sub jobs leveled as possible, this makes you far more versatile, and could mean a few more party invites here and there.

Here are some things to look forward to as a Dragoon:

<--- I love ToAU xp camps!!
<--- /war for the Jump damage, and /nin for the Airship Fight record.