The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Oh, DRK/THFs easy to outparse, especially if you're not waiting on his TP.

A DRK/THF with a 480 delay Gswd gets 100% TP in a minimum of 72 seconds (without haste), assuming you never miss. DRG/WAR usually does it in less than 50 seconds, minimum is 24 seconds, though that's unlikely.
SA spinning slash is potent but the timing with TP is not very practical... DRK gets no extra attacks. You'll usually outdo a drk/thf by simple virtue of DoT and bad SC timing.

[Lmnop]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

ummmm I carry a defense set with my warrior -- no, with any melee I level -- in every exp, even if I don't plan on tanking. No, I don't think most people do this. Yes, I think all melee should do this. I definately take hits better with phalanx or cheap vit rings and AF body than a drg wearing sniper's. I've never seen the smart Drk wearing darksteel stuff for being trick bish, I've only met one samurai who always carried NQ Arhat's and phalanx rings for the job. And warriors get 2 defense traits to a drg's one, so they're slightly ahead. You basically stated that defense means nothing when I can jack up my Vit by an easy 10 points and my defense by at least 40 with really cheap gear.

That is the only point I disagree with and will voice my opinion on.

If Jumps aren't on the opening list, they most definately need added. Jumps are great. I just wish they had more defensive options for drg and wyvern alike...

Armor isn't much of an issue end game. It's a terrible issue mid-game. that rediculous brigandine and those stupid battle gloves. In the instance that your wyvern is dead, aren't battle gloves like... THE best gloves 'til level 70?
Just a decent something for hands around 40ish and a body armor somewhere between 50 and 60 and I'd be happy with their equipment.

[Hereaux]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

where and in what scenario do you see drg/anything outdmging a drk/thf? i'd like to know. fuidama-spinslash/groundstrike/spiralhell puts out numbers i have yet to see a drg match in xp situations.

Thats in 1 hit. DRG will out DoT DRK anytime. Search for the parsers before you talk.

and just for proof i came across this from an older thread...

Ekoh (DRK/THF)
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1130.53
Average Percent: 25.38
Average Accuracy: 74.58

Kainhighwind (DRG/WAR)
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1219.97
Average Percent: 28.01
Average Accuracy: 82.43

parser from screenname GSDragoon

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Being passionate about ones observation doesn't make the facts subjective. Putting excessive work into them doesn't either. Objective observations are based on the fact that I put out factual observations without saying, "they can't do this, but that's trivial".

Objective means I put out the factors, and support them with explaination. What I don't do is try to discredit factual claims because I don't agree with them, and I don't try to OVERLOOK weaknesses because I don't think they matter. What you think is subjective, your opinion on how much it matters is meaningless in a debate, I know for myself how much certain aspects mean to me, and other PPL have thier opinions as well, I put out factual material to enlighten peers, I don't make fictional (untrue), slanderous (false and unjustified insults), or subjective (personal opinion based) observations.

Double Post Edited:
All these silly parse comparisons are based on Drgs maximum efficiency, including the wyvern. PPL think it is alright to pretend Drgs damage with a Wyvern is their end all total, but the truth is that the wyvern dies on several occasions, it isn't a sword that simply adds to your attack. The wyverns inclusion is at the cost of more received damage as well, and trying to make concrete parsing on how good a Drg with his wyvern compares to another DD is overlooking the fact that the wyvern isn't always there. Even a Good Drg who can execute all of his defensive moves may lose it, and if hes so good that he is competing with Drk and Mnk for damage then he may very well be killed himself by certain powerful enemies, which downs him and his wyvern. Since the wyvern isn't an ever-present factor the parse should be taken on Drg with and without his wyvern. And all players know that a Drg without a wyvern is a Warrior without armor, and Jump instead of Agressor. Which is more effective when Drg doesn't have a Wyvern doesn't even get light because it is impossibly obvious.

In a Fair comparison, 2 like players, with simularly effective equiptment, and same Race, playing 1 as a Mnk or Drk compared to another play Drg, the parse will often show that Drg does more DoT with the Wyvern, but always does less damage under all catagories without his wyvern. Furthermore jobs like Drk don't just do damage, but reduce damage, with absorb spells, and stop enemy specials like Bomb toss with Stun, also reducing a significant amount of damage. In a Fair Comparison a Drg Vs a Drk, even if you simply assume the Drg has his wyvern (which is already padding the factors), Drk will not only compete on a damage side, but on a defensive side, by reducing damage, wile Drg will incure more damage to the party as a whole every time they get hit by an AoE. A Drk may take alot of damage on himself when he grabs agro, wile a Drg keeps the agro off of himself. A "good" Drk will use discernment to avoid agro, so assuming both players are smart enough to avoid getting agroed, the Drg takes more damage even though he doesn't get agroed because of AoE, and I know Super Jump can dodge an attack with the wyvern, and I also know you can only use it once every 5 minutes, wile mobs at lvl 50+ can easily use 3 and 4 AoE attacks every 2 minutes.

Compared to a Monk, a Monk can take way less damage, as he has a significant amount of Defense, and the chance to Guard or Counter. Monk is probably the most well defended DD next to a warrior, and he doesn't have to gear toward defense to have that Defense. Monk is a tough target to kill, and the best backup tank when the tank dies short of another tank, being able to defend for a few seconds when the tank is getting beaten, wile having his damage in full focus on a everready basis is powerful.

Now here is where I bring up the overlooked factors. When a Drg gets haste, mandrigal, march, or minuet it only increases the portion of his attack on him and not his wyvern, when a Drg gets attack buffs only he gets the buff his wyvern doesn't improve. Compared to a Drk, Mnk, War, or even Sam, whos attack power in total improves completely, Drg gets left out greatly. Since we know Drgs personall attack doesn't add up to what other DDs do, and since only his personall attack gets buffed in such good parties, compared to a Mnk, War, or Drk whos damage output nearly doubles, Drg, even with his wyvern, will do the same DoT, and much less spike damage. In an Ideal party where a Brd and or Rdm, or Whm, or Smn is putting attack buffs on their DD the Buff is clearly in favor of all the other DD. By personall comparison, my wyvern has about the same normal attack as a Thief swinging 1 knife, about the same hit rate and damage per hit, a thief with 2 knifes hits about half as often with 2 so it is nearly the same, but after the bard put song effects on our party the Thief hits twice as often for almost twice as much damage wile the Wyvern doesn't increase at all. The Drg will improve significantly himself meaning that the damage isn't grossly in favor of other DD when buffs are included, but The Drg has to keep his wyvern alive to do even the same damage. Toward the end of the game Drg gets no new attributes, buffs become much more available, and AoE becomes much more prevalent, making it hard to keep a Wyvern in the Equation.

Drg like to look over factors like DoT and pretend to not notice the cumilative factors and capabilities that surround the gameplay as a whole, in actuallity the Drgs power is equal or less in a good party, trying to compare only the damage done without the damage received, trying to overlook the lack of increase included with buffs, trying to overlook the Drgs defense and pulling capabilities, they are all propoganda to justify Drg.

Drg has some serious issues, if Drgs arn't willing to agree to them and draw attention to them then they will never be addressed, it is your own fault that nothing gets improved on Drg when you sit here and try to pretend your still alright with it. If your going to play it anyways and enjoy it, then thats fine, but trying to contest the fact that Drg has "serious", not "trivial" but serious handicaps, then you deserved to use Drg as it is, and any suggestions about what you would like improved on Drg go straight to the dirt, because you yourself rally behind the vasad that Drg is alright as it is.

You can't say to your friend, "Drg realy needs something more, hes a bit gimped", then go to the forums and say, "Drg is great, you can't say it is handicapped based on these factual observations". You just choose to support Drg the way it is, it's your own fault if it doesn't get improved.

[Omni]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Thats in 1 hit. DRG will out DoT DRK anytime. Search for the parsers before you talk.

and just for proof i came across this from an older thread...

Ekoh (DRK/THF)
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1130.53
Average Percent: 25.38
Average Accuracy: 74.58

Kainhighwind (DRG/WAR)
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1219.97
Average Percent: 28.01
Average Accuracy: 82.43

parser from screenname GSDragoon

ive seen parsers thank you. it was a mere question btw, dont need to get your panties in a bunch. i suggest you read bk's post above this one. it shares my view on the ever persistent drk vs drg debate.

thats an avg of around 90 dmg more a fight? hey funny thing, thats 1 hit also!does that include the regular 700-1300 light renkei dmg that a drk/thf can create? i guess if you want to claim the crown then its all yours. correct me if i'm wrong but i think those parsers only show the dmg that is associated with your name.

[DakAttack]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

How can you do damage that isn't associated with your name? What does that mean anyways? He didn't even include the wyvern with that parser snippet which no doubt added 300-500 more average damage per battle.

[Sammonoske]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

DRG/WAR= Standard, backup voke and slight power increase with Berserk
DRG/DRK= Spells worthless at the most point but attack is better then WAR
DRG/SAM= TP hore :p basicly same power as /WAR but with TP bonuses
DRG/THF= Great WS damage but slightly weaker DoT
DRG/WHM= MP pool is low, but with the Wyvern has great healing power
DRG/RDM= Even though this is subbed....the enffebles still really well, and healing and then en-spells makes this combo very interesting

DRG/WAR = Berserk, Defence Boost, Attack Boost, Double Attack
DRG/DRK = Last Resort, Soul Eater, Attack Boost(little bit more than WAR), Much less defence. Worthless MP to use magic. Last Resort+Soul Eater = Less defence than a DRK and fast way to die with Penta Thrust.
DRG/SAM = Meditate, Less Attack, Less Defence. Constant WS's.
DRG/THF = SATA, Less defence, Less Attack(than all the DD jobs). Highest WS damage.
DRG/WHM = 200+ Mp pool at 75, More spells to use, higher healing magic than the rest of the mages.
DRG/RDM = Slightly Less Mp, Higher level required magic spells, Enffebling isnt the goal to soloing as Drg. Less spells to use.

Just thouht I'd point that out..

[neighbortaru]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

How can you do damage that isn't associated with your name? What does that mean anyways?

i believe omni is referring to the damage of skillchains. last i checked, spyle's LP lists skillchain damage seperate from player (and player's weaponskill) damage.

[Balodoth]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Omni is saying that the DRG in the parser uses that screen name in these forums.

I think I remember seeing this. If I remember correctly the wyvern only had something like 24 battles it participated in. Good damage, but apparently it didn't survive or timers got in the way. I forget what exactly. Either way, the DRG did well.

[Hereaux]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

The wyvern wasn't present in all the fights it had died and the DRG still outdamaged the DRK. I don't care by how much, 1 hit can decide the fate of a party in a bind.

[Karinya]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

i believe omni is referring to the damage of skillchains. last i checked, spyle's LP lists skillchain damage seperate from player (and player's weaponskill) damage.

Most parsers do. Just because monsters are stupid enough to believe that the SC closer is solely responsible for the skillchain damage doesn't mean players should duplicate their mistake. Both the opener and closer deserve some of the credit for the SC damage (and the difference between MB and normal nukes, including the different resist rate). There's no simple and obviously correct way for parsers to count this, so they just don't, and leave the interpretation of data up to the user.

Also, all parsers that I know of count the wyvern separately from the dragoon (depending on your settings, the wyvern's damage may even be filtered and not counted at all). And it is *still* common to see the dragoon outparse other DD, even on mobs that are not weak to piercing. I've seen parties where the DRG, without counting wyvern damage, outparsed the BLM - and the BLM was pulling hate while the DRG was not.

Of course, parsers aren't counting the damage from Dia, Warcry or Shield Break, either. (Or they *do* count it, but credit it to the wrong person.) So using parsers to measure a player's contribution to a party - even a "pure DD" - is an inherently flawed approach that fails to consider the limitations of parsers.

Anyone who thinks DRG are weak either isn't paying attention, or doesn't understand what they do see. Some individual DRG may be bad, the job as a whole is not.

Double Post Edited:

ive seen parsers thank you. it was a mere question btw, dont need to get your panties in a bunch. i suggest you read bk's post above this one. it shares my view on the ever persistent drk vs drg debate.

thats an avg of around 90 dmg more a fight? hey funny thing, thats 1 hit also!does that include the regular 700-1300 light renkei dmg that a drk/thf can create? i guess if you want to claim the crown then its all yours. correct me if i'm wrong but i think those parsers only show the dmg that is associated with your name.

The only way for one person to create a renkei is Meikyo Shisui. For a DRK/THF to *close* a renkei with SATA requires at least a 3 person effort. Overlooking this doesn't exactly improve your credibility. 700-1300 is a *very* favorable number, too - parsers will reveal an average of more like 500. Half resists on the SC damage are quite common even when it matches the monster's elemental weakness (and when you do get that kind of freak damage, a lot of times the extra damage is wasted as overkill, either immediately or on the MBs; parsers don't count overkill or canceled MBs either). Claiming your record damage as your average damage just makes you look like you don't understand variability in damage.

On the other hand, comparing a DRK/THF to a DRG/WAR may not be precisely fair - every DD job does less overall damage with /THF than with /WAR. Also, their gear is not identical, and they may have indirect effects on damage (the wyvern, absorb VIT or AGI, etc.) that are not reflected in the log. Parser data has its uses, but shouldn't be taken as final proof of anything. Humans are (or at least should be) smarter than any existing computer program.

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Yal have totaly jumped off the deep end, parse data can be gathered to show any class is way better then the other, using different gear, foods, race, effective mobs. There are dozens of parse datas which show completely controdicting results, which could very easily be the hand of chance.

Perhaps you forgot, but this thread is here to collect the pros and cons of Drg, if you find the time around your cross fire to come up with more pros and cons then swell!, otherwise You should start another thread called "Parse comparisons of Drg Damage Dealing" because you could collect pages and pages of parse results and never know for certain unless you "see it yourself" and even then it would be escued.

This is why I collected only the simple facts about Drg on the OP, and the real handicaps I have a problem with aren't what kind of damage Drg can do, It's what else he can't do. The Drg would HAVE to be the end all most powerful DD to justify his lack of tactical functions, and if he realy was, then it wouldn't be a rumor, it would be a well known fact.

[Karinya]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

DRG's tactical options lacking? Try playing MNK and then come back and say that. Monks can't even jump, let alone divide their damage with a pet to reduce their hate, then super jump and reduce their hate even *more*.

Absorbs, even when they aren't resisted, don't have THAT big an impact on a fight. They're there, but they're not crucial. They're not even a good reason to invite DRK over another DD - skillchain compatibility, skillchain element vs. monster weakness and monster weakness by damage type (flies, bats, bones) are far more important.

RNG's ability to stay outside AoEs while dealing damage is a slightly bigger deal on some mobs. On others it isn't an advantage at all. Occasionally it's even a liability (it creates additional risk of monster movement, which can be very bad depending on the monster). And RNG is notorious for having the worst hate control problems of any DD, and being the most vulnerable if they do pull hate.

THF's hate control is helpful, but not usually necessary. And it's widely accepted (whether or not it's actually true) that THF damage is lower than "real" DDs.

DDs that have good pulling tools have a slight advantage, I guess, in that a party that has one non-pulling DD will prefer pulling-capable DDs for their remaining slot. But I've seen some very skilled MNK pullers - pulling ability is at least as much about the player as it is about the job.

[Balodoth]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Bahamut, once again, please be more concise. If you mean to say that statistics can be manipulated, then your statement has merit. You miss the fact, however, that statistics are still based on facts. The only valid point to your argument is that there are many variables to either keep track of or control directly.

It is however the differences--be it subjob, equipment, monster, or otherwise--that are being tracked. A parser doesn't lie (with the rare exception of reading errors), and is therefore adequate for its purpose. So long as I can trust the person submitting the data, I can trust the data. And it is through these numbers that we are able to attain your holy grail of objectivity.

If anything, my grief with parsers would be that the function more like a spreadsheet and less like a database.

[Omni]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

nm. i removed my post. way too off topic.

some people need to read from the beginning rather than reading the last post and commenting on it.