The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

[Lmnop]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

except his assessments of what's missing are dead on. Sure, good DoT but he's right. They work good with THF even though a samurai will cost less MP to do the same thing. I don't think being elvaan will change anything. Taru DRG do a damn fine job, your hume can shut up and go auto-attack.

When you say you dislike DRG, would I be right to say that you're bitter at Square Enix' poor execution of such a marvelous concept? That's how I feel. All these threads where Dragoons can't decide which way to swing. Do I show everyone else that I've succeeded at being an underdog or do I point out what I'm missing so everyone realizes what needs changed?

Fact: Impaction is a great Dragoon.
Fact: Impaction will never get into an end game exp/merit party pulling 10k+ exp an hour.

[DakAttack]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Ah, so true. >_<

I'm not in a rush to see end game, I hear it's pretty gloomy. I derive my satisfaction from doing my job well in crappy parties and good ones alike. The EXP I make is fine with me as long as it's at least 5k an hour. My XP/Hour has steadily increased as I level, but if you don't think I'll get anywhere around 10k I guess I wont expect any miracles.

[aegina]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

the real problem with a post like this is that it's hard to discuss any job's strengths and weaknesses without comparing them to others.

[Lmnop]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

So strive for something better. Why the hell shouldn't a dragoon be the equal of the monk or the black mage or the bard? That's what BK is going for here, whether or not you think his execution was what it should be. What we're looking for here is a bias-free evaluation of the dragoon class.

It's going back to ground one to see just where the class is after numorous equipment updates and job nerfs. I would assume the purpose is to finally pin down once and for all what is dragging the job down.

Quick opinion... I don't think Dragoon needs changed. Some game dynamic needs added which enhances the effectiveness of all melee or maybe just all two handers. As is, I'd say Ninjas, Bards, and Black Mages are kinda on the same level of desire for most anything in the game. Ranger used to be up here, if any rangers still existed, I'd imagine they still would be. After that comes another tier with things like whms, rdms, and under that is prolly sams and wars. Everything below is commodity in very few circumstances, which isn't enough to make those jobs happy. Lowest on LFG list, lowest on HNM list, lowest on Self-Esteem. Ummm, what was I talking about here?

shoot, I did it again, well I'm not deleting it because there was prolly some insight in it. I just want something to change that'll put all jobs in "second most desirable."

[SelfdestButton]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Pros:

- Jump and High Jump used as an asset to TP growth and DoT give DRGs a tremendously fast time to 100% TP while still using a high delay weapon, without an innate haste/low delay weapon strategy like THF, MNK, NIN or WAR/NIN.
- Hate loss allows thieves to use SATA in merit groups in lieu of a war/nin or extra tank of some sort.
- Wheeling Thrust is a WS that hits a peak without relying (much) on an attack/defense comparison. It'll hit it's peak with or without a Bard, or meat. It being single hit makes it an ideal candidate for SA, although it's base modifier is somewhat lower than WS on fragmentation slots, or Tachi: Kasha.
- Penta Thrust is an enormously powerful weapon skill in merit group setups; that is to say, scenarios against low level mobs and excellent equipment.
- Wyvern can chase kited mobs and can't seem to have it's damage reduced beyond a certain point.

Cons:
- DRG can't take hits and can't sub /nin in a serious DD situation. This makes their use in merit "burn" groups limited, though it is someone remedied by hate loss jumps.
- DRG relies on multi-hits from 1-66 (Double Thrust, Penta thrust, and Skewer). While these weapon skills can potentially compare and exceed the equivalent competition WS, they have a very demanding +attack requirement to pass a certain threshold, or else these WS are very weak.

DRG gear selection as a con should be stricken. There is enough gear at endgame to make a fearsome DD out of a DRG, especially with the introduction of Homams. Even without it, +30 or more acc, +50 att, +35 STR to macro in your WS and sushi is as easy to get on DRG as any other job, and that's all you need to outparse your SC closer.

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Drgs armor class is a very obviously limited. A Rdm can wear nearly all the Gear a Drg gets, as well as even more mage gear, A warrior or Drk can wear all of Drgs armors as well as heavy armors, even though Drk obviously can't tank. Samurai and Monk can wear many of the same armors, plus an entire line of martial arts gears which only they and Ninja can use.

Alot of SelfdestButtons observations are on end game gears and end game activities, well if you finally get end game with Drg then your pretty much over the Hump. These difficultes are things that prevent Drg from being accepted throuought much of the game. And yes Drgs armor class is seriously gimped, having access to enough gears compared to having access to that much and more gives other classes the opportunity to find, make, buy or share gears of more sorts then others, it also prevents Drg from attempting to tank for a party, which is a key tactic useful for Sam and Mnk, and mainly Warrior who can do plenty of Damage and take several hits even without a ninja sub.

The limit of gear on a character also dictates the prices they have to pay for useful gear, because sellers will take advantage of certain Gear selections. For a Drg having better armor selection opens up 2 very profitable windows, A) they can get gears like haubergeon set which ups attack a great deal, not just for the body but there are several pieces which can all be used. These things don't carry nearly as devistating a trade off for a character who simply keeps his hate low, B) gives Drg access to better defense armors which can give at least Galka and Elvaan Drgs a reasonable tanking capability. If a Drg could use heavy armor and a shield with a sword they could tank within acceptable margins, wile providing Cure Breaths and added damage via the wyvern.

This isn't a hack on the Dragoon class, yal need to recognize, I'm providing a very objective set of pros and cons on the Drg, how I feel about Drg is nothing more then a motive, it doesn't make any of these findings false. The FF series is my favorite, and I think Dragoon is the coolest class next to samurai. What pisses me off is that I can't accel as the class I want, I don't get as many party opportunities because of the limitations and stigmatism around this class. Some of the main difficulties are shared among all DD class because of the ratio of DD in this game and thier lack of neccessity compared to other kind of classes, but being the least popular of the most competative class field is oppressive.

And until people can come to a majority conclusion that Drg should be "improved", then SE will hide behind the few that say "It's OK like it is". Guess what, "OK" sucks, I don't play a video game to be a norm, I play to be Great, or at least Good. And I don't want to play a class whos only opportunity to be Good revolve getting the best gear to do some more damage. I want a Drg who can be great for the party because a good player is behind the controls, and have a some key useful techniques, or at least more of the common ones.

If I didn't care about Drg I wouldn't write anything about it, I would just point out the serious handicaps any time someone misguided crossed my path. But Drg was my primary class on my original character, and I played all the way up to 60 and got My AF armor. I still couldn't get to rank 6 because nobody wants to bring a Drg, couldn't get a party unless I made it myself, and most of all, it tolk way to much of my time. I spent 2 years trying to make Drg work, and if I continued to invest in it I would "eventually" reach end game and get my relic armor. But it wasn't worth that much time, and I'm not going to continue to support or even tolerate the difficulties of being a Drg. The balance of power is so warped in this game that I can get more parties being an Elvaan Blm then any Elvaan DD of any type, and the answer to balance isn't nerfing everything so ppl can live with the balance, the key is to improve the weaknesses til everything is balanced, and satisfy the players.

[DakAttack]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

I had a big reponse written out, but since they aren't doing you any good I'll just skip it. Be more than just a damage dealer and you'll be alright. I pull up maps, navigate, explain stretegies, keep everyone up to date, etc. It's not hard, but you make your own reputation better than that of your job. It may not show itself in the amount of invites you recieve, but you'll be treated better in general. And who knows, maybe you wont be inclined to make these kinds of posts. I know I stopped making them when I started making a serious effort.

Where you said "What pisses me off is that I can't accel as the class I want, I don't get as many party opportunities because of the limitations and stigmatism around this class." You have to excel before you accel. It gets easier when you have Wheeling Thrust and a properly leveled Thief sub job. It wouldn't matter that your DoT suffers, people want the big numbers for the big skill chains so that anal Black Mages can do their thing.

[Hereaux]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

I had a big reponse written out, but since they aren't doing you any good I'll just skip it. Be more than just a damage dealer and you'll be alright. I pull up maps, navigate, explain stretegies, keep everyone up to date, etc. It's not hard, but you make your own reputation better than that of your job. It may not show itself in the amount of invites you recieve, but you'll be treated better in general. And who knows, maybe you wont be inclined to make these kinds of posts. I know I stopped making them when I started making a serious effort.

Where you said "What pisses me off is that I can't accel as the class I want, I don't get as many party opportunities because of the limitations and stigmatism around this class." You have to excel before you accel. It gets easier when you have Wheeling Thrust and a properly leveled Thief sub job. It wouldn't matter that your DoT suffers, people want the big numbers for the big skill chains so that anal Black Mages can do their thing.

amen!

[aegina]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

yeah, impatcion said it all...

[SelfdestButton]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Without Utsusemi, there is no tanking without defense food. War/anythingbutninja is not a viable tank or even backup tank on anything, and will die as fast as any other DD. SAM, DRK... any DD without Utsusemi is not a backup tank that won't die, any faster or slower than DRG.
RDM can't use Barone, but in any case the similar armor selection is also a moot point. You're comparing a class that uses a weak one handed weapon with B skill and no passive bonuses to one with excellent passive bonuses, an A+ weapon skill, and a weapon class with one of the best damage to delay ratios among two handed weapons. The gear difference between a DRG and a DRK is trivial because... get this, you'll outdamage a DRK/THF every time. You'll outdamage a THF/NIN every time. You'll outdamage a SAM/anything every single time. If you play like I do, and I don't do anything very spectacular, you'll usually equal or come very close to or surpass every pickup DD you party with in a non-merit pt after 65.

Dude, you're 60. You said it, basically, you're not over the hump. DDing just gets easier on every job after 60; everyone gets new toys that revitalize the job. You speak glibly of making an objective evaluation of DRG but you can't make one until you've played it to 65 at least.

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

I'm more then informed about locations quests and cordination, I am a dictionary of everything that every crosses my path, as well I spend a great deal of time researching the game, so all this "well you could do this, this, and this" SLANDER is BS. I had a Warrior sub, a Thief sub, and a Whm sub for whatever the party could use, and I even tried bard sub, because half of a bard drew more parties then all of a Drg.

I know so much about Drg that I got a job offer to write a player guide on how to be Drg, I tolk the time to learn everything there is to know about Drg, and I told them to keep thier job because I wasn't going to inflict another 15 lvls of Drg on myself. I already know what Drg has in store at lvl 75, any job that gets that far is powerful enough to preform, but that doesn't give Drg a good pulling technique, or compensation for the damage he takes on himself and his wyvern, matter a fact, monsters toward the end of the game use serveral times more AoE attacks and often Drg has to learn to play without his wyvern, expecially in HNM, if he even gets invited.

I have the research and background, as well as plenty of observation to know exactly how all of the classes work all the way to the end of the game. As if I am ignorant enough to have to do it to understand like some high school jock. Drg doesn't get any "new toys" save for some WS, just like every DD job towards the end of the game, he works exactly the same from 50 to 75, not a single trait, or ability for the rest of the game.

So cram what you think you know Impaction, if you like Drg that's fine, you got no right to insult me.

As for Drgs armor class compared to Rdm, the point is Rdm is a mage, and he has that much armor, a melee class needs more armor then that, DUH. The only melee class with lower armor rating then Drg is Thief, and all of Thiefs spike damage serves to improve the hate on another target. Drg is a front line DD, it is typically a /War job, and expected as a member of a party to perform tactics such as trick pulls and do whatever possible to defend the mages.

I never said Drg couldn't do damage, ppl know that Drg can do better DoT, the obvious weakness I have made clear about Drg here is the lack of ability to do anything else. Those DoT numbers sound great because they never bother to take the parsing when the wyvern is down, and guess what, that winged gecko dies very easily, you don't take a Drg to gustav tunnel, because hes just an underarmored warrior with a spear. Drg can do more damage then most DD, and he damn sure takes more AoE, unless his wyvern doesn't make it in which case he does less damage.

And pretending that a warrior can't take twice as many hits as a Drg is BS, First of a warrior is free to use ninja sub, a Drg isn't, and even with subs like Mnk or Sam warrior can take twice as many hits as a Drg, not to mention the Drg is taking added AoE damage. All of your comparisons are unbalanced when brought to light, all of them are tricks of numbers, you can pretend to be OK with Drg if you like.

An Objective evaluation isn't about personal experience, a smart person has the capacity to study something and learn it without doing it himself, but that has nothing to do with it, objectivity is a fair display of the facts without escuing the strengths or weaknesses in your favor, and I have voiced the strengths and the weaknesses objectively. Subjective evaluation is trying to point out DoT without pointing out the AoE recieved over time, and the lose of that DoT if the wyvern is dead or unavailable. Subjective evaluation is pretending there is no difference between how much damage characters take when the defense of a warrior is obviously higher. Subjective evaluation is trying to point out Drg strength without recognizing it's weaknesses. I have been very objective, and the conclusion is completely factual, read the list of Pros an Cons and tell me any single one of those is false or misguiding, if you can't then the arguement is over.

[Balodoth]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Once again, Bahamut, a chapter when a paragraph would suffice. In short, I would advise you that calling yourself a "dictionary of everything that crosses my path" is not a good way to win people over to your way of thinking. We are not calling you stupid, Bahamut, we are simply reacting to our perception of what you are doing with this thread.

Now, before we have a moderator moderate us, lets get back on track. There's plenty of room in the world for different viewpoints, there's even room for somebody to be wrong so long as the world doesn't end.

Here's a feather for your DRG cap: DRG's ACC Bonus not only aids our DoT, but also our TP gain. Because it increases our DoT, SC's are weakened as a result. So, on the one hand our damage is less evident because it is more spread out: autoattack, SC's, wyvern attacks, and breath attacks. On the other hand, our increased TP gain makes us an excellent choice as a SC--and thereby MB--enabler.

DRG is an enabler class. It is the melee version of BRD or RDM. Unfortunately, it is not that easy to see. I find that most people who play while simultaneously clamoring for change don't necessarily want more power. Granted, we almost always ask for it. And really, who in their right mind wouldn't ask for more power if given the chance to effect a change? But what I find people want is more definition, a more clear cut role in the party. For instance, having a unique way to get rid of hate, why do we have so little to spike hate? If our 2 hour ability makes our damage output similar to other jobs, why can't we continue to be comparable without our wyvern? If our wyvern is so adversely affected by damaging AoE, why can't it be affected by beneficial AoE? If other jobs have access to gear that nullifies our inherent job abilities (i.e. ACC bonus) then why doesn't DRG have access to the same equipment or just have stronger/more job abilities?

In the end, this truly is a comparison of DRG to other jobs. If we do not, then DRG becomes the standard unto itself and therefore always measures up. The whole story is this: DRG is a jack of all trades. It can do all things well, but nothing special. When compared to that function as carried out by the job designed for it, it comes up lacking. In every instance DRG is subpar and can currently only be appreciated in parties where the other 5 players are extremely focused and require someone that can backup multiple roles. Even then, with 5 focused people, DRG isn't always the valuable resource it should be.

[Kailea]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

DRG/WAR= Standard, backup voke and slight power increase with Berserk
DRG/DRK= Spells worthless at the most point but attack is better then WAR
DRG/SAM= TP hore :p basicly same power as /WAR but with TP bonuses
DRG/THF= Great WS damage but slightly weaker DoT
DRG/WHM= MP pool is low, but with the Wyvern has great healing power
DRG/RDM= Even though this is subbed....the enffebles still really well, and healing and then en-spells makes this combo very interesting

[SelfdestButton]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

See, now you're getting unusually angry for an objective person. You don't have the research or the backround because it's apparent that some of the things you are saying are very wrong. My argument that your ideas are skewed from not taking the job to 75 stems from the idea that you've read and based opinions on whatever you've read and researched, however the credible that material may be. God knows what you've read or what LS environment you're in, so I for one, am leery.

but that doesn't give Drg a good pulling technique

This is trivial. Your SC closer will always be a THF, a DRK, a MNK, or a SAM. Any one of those can pull for you and besides, last time I checked pebbles pulled as well as SAM RA, DRK spells or MNK chi blasts.

And pretending that a warrior can't take twice as many hits as a Drg is BS, First of a warrior is free to use ninja sub, a Drg isn't, and even with subs like Mnk or Sam warrior can take twice as many hits as a Drg, not to mention the Drg is taking added AoE damage.

No, they can't. Few WAR setups have decent defense and believe it or not, even if they did wear tank gear, you can't mitigate damage to within acceptable limits without defense food past level 35, unless you're in a merit group. There is nothing innate about war that gives them significant defense increase; in fact, DRG and WAR have similar Vitality and they both get the same passive defense bonus, assuming the drg is /war. Even if they didn't, as I said, this difference is trivial unless you are geared and fed to tank, and wars aren't. Ever.
This is more or less self-evident to most people.

Drg doesn't get any "new toys" save for some WS, just like every DD job towards the end of the game, he works exactly the same from 50 to 75, not a single trait, or ability for the rest of the game.

That's all I claimed. You don't think the addition of Shark Bite improves THF at 66? How about Spinning Slash changing DRK? Or maybe you'll meet a MNK who doesn't appreciate Dragon Kick or Asuran Fists. The WS is half the job, and wheeling thrust is a huge boon. You fail to mention it or give obvious merit to that, or the fact that your WS skill rises faster after 60, or the new gear that you get towards the latter half of the game, or the very obvious resultant fact that melee sucks at 60 in exp when compared to melee at 75.

As for Drgs armor class compared to Rdm, the point is Rdm is a mage, and he has that much armor, a melee class needs more armor then that, DUH. The only melee class with lower armor rating then Drg is Thief, and all of Thiefs spike damage serves to improve the hate on another target. Drg is a front line DD, it is typically a /War job, and expected as a member of a party to perform tactics such as trick pulls and do whatever possible to defend the mages.

No, they don't.
The defense difference between DRG gear and anyone elses gear is not worth mentioning. Do you ever see a SAM using Arhats or a DRK using a Darksteel Cuirass, anyway?
Defense. Doesn't. Matter.
Besides, it's a stupid argument. If tomorrow, DRG can wear haubergeon... would that change ANYTHING? It'd be nice to have but the difference between hauberk and scorpion harness isn't the difference between an amazing melee and a horrible one. There is enough gear in the game to make an impressive DRG. Barone and Homam's are both DRG usable, the feet and legs of the former are defensively and offensively superior to anything else at that level for any job, the haste bonus and accuracy on the latter is amazing, to say the least.
And you'll never be called on to defend mages in any sane setup, or be called upon to do SA pulls outside of an SC after 60.

An Objective evaluation isn't about personal experience, a smart person has the capacity to study something and learn it without doing it himself, but that has nothing to do with it, objectivity is a fair display of the facts without escuing the strengths or weaknesses in your favor, and I have voiced the strengths and the weaknesses objectively.

No, you haven't. You're a bitter and disenchanted dragoon, a FFXI cliche so old and tiresome it borders on physical pain to read about. Worse, your argument is fallacious. Objective evaluation as a justification is a shaky argument to begin with (not to mention a cop-out on your part, it's paradoxical to subjectively claim objectivity as an individual), but you DO have to play the game to an extent to avoid talking out of your ass. You can make reasonable predictions on points and scenarios that are similar to a certain extent, but there's no conceptual, infallible framework that can let you predict the game in it's entirety based on simple premise. One, the premises of your arguments are wrong, and secondly, they avail you nothing anyway because you can't predict the way DRG develops after 60... I illustrate this point by drawing attention to the fact that you haven't done so successfully.

You want to point out a suggestion of mine that wasn't aimed at endgame? Here's one:
Jump and High Jump used as an asset to TP growth and DoT give DRGs a tremendously fast time to 100% TP while still using a high delay weapon, without an innate haste/low delay weapon strategy like THF, MNK, NIN or WAR/NIN.
MNK is a great DoT job because of kick attacks and martial arts. NIN is a great DoT job because of dual wield. War is a great DoT job because of double attack. DRG is a great DoT job because of...? It seems pompous objectivity isn't exactly condusive to thorough analysis because none of you, not one managed to mention jumps as a boon to DRG damage, when in fact it's probably the only unique and reliable one. It works well, too, if you're not an idiot and use them well.
If you can parse as high as another DD that's enough to win an argument on the merit of the job. If your wyvern is taking damage, don't summon it. You don't even need it in sky anyway. Simple, done, over with. You'll never tank as well as a war/nin and that's precisely why you'll never see lance burns on Ru'Aun or Lufaise. You know what? Who cares? You don't see fucking scythe burns or great katana burns up there either.

[Omni]

Re: The benifits and handicaps of Drg.

Without Utsusemi, there is no tanking without defense food. War/anythingbutninja is not a viable tank or even backup tank on anything, and will die as fast as any other DD. SAM, DRK... any DD without Utsusemi is not a backup tank that won't die, any faster or slower than DRG.
RDM can't use Barone, but in any case the similar armor selection is also a moot point. You're comparing a class that uses a weak one handed weapon with B skill and no passive bonuses to one with excellent passive bonuses, an A+ weapon skill, and a weapon class with one of the best damage to delay ratios among two handed weapons. The gear difference between a DRG and a DRK is trivial because... get this, you'll outdamage a DRK/THF every time. You'll outdamage a THF/NIN every time. You'll outdamage a SAM/anything every single time. If you play like I do, and I don't do anything very spectacular, you'll usually equal or come very close to or surpass every pickup DD you party with in a non-merit pt after 65.

Dude, you're 60. You said it, basically, you're not over the hump. DDing just gets easier on every job after 60; everyone gets new toys that revitalize the job. You speak glibly of making an objective evaluation of DRG but you can't make one until you've played it to 65 at least.

where and in what scenario do you see drg/anything outdmging a drk/thf? i'd like to know. fuidama-spinslash/groundstrike/spiralhell puts out numbers i have yet to see a drg match in xp situations.