SE and the Dragoons

[Macht]

Hmm, adjusting it were the DRG has more control over when his Wyvern uses his breath is quite a good one. Wonder why I never thought of something that simple for a change, the only breath that I can think were that may be to overpowering if allowed to be to frequent and a bit underpowering if it hinders others from being frequent enough is the healing breaths.

Even though the BRDs get the Paeon Songs without spending MP, the songs are still regens so they are by no means a substitue to a healing spell. Healing Breath though is practically a decent healing spell already make it were the DRG has free use of it without a precondition and it is a bit overpowering.

[Langolier]

Personally...

I think DRG is absolutely fine in EXP...

The problem is that they can't do anything to HNM's... and it should be fixed.

Over-all though, new abilities, traits, and such that reinforce the Dragoon's partnership with his or her Wyvern would be interesting.

[DakAttack]

We don't have much of an end-game presense because of two things: One, our wyverns are extremely weak and will be taken down within the first or second AE skill. Using Spirit Link will only get us killed in the next AE as well. It's pointless to use them, and that's a fourth of our damage we can't use. Two, we have no role. We can't tank, nor can we nuke, or kite the HNMs.

I have a new suggestion that might make a lot of sense, and might not.

Why can't our Wyvern be our ranged attack? Under the pet menu they can add an option 'Pull' to have our Wyvern attack a monster but leave us with the hate so we can run back without hinder to our Wyvern.

We should be given the opportunity to quest for Rare/Ex armor for our Wyvern that might aid in pulling or general fighting. It will sit in the ammo slot, which is seemingly always empty, and will offer an advantage with AE attacks. It might be something that's depletable. Let's say there's another pet command 'Defend' where they enter a defensive stage and stop attacking which will take up an armor for 30 seconds. The armor will have it's own health which will be taken before the Wyvern's health so they can better take AEs. As they level they can wear armor with more HP to more easily absorb stronger AEs.

[Balodoth]

I agree, DRG is a very powerful job, regardless of what other people say or feel. The problem is that what other people say or feel is what gets us party invites. Or, in our case, a lack of invites.

Other people disregard DRG as useless, as better replaced with a different job.

Most of us here don't necessarily want to make DRG more powerful. Perhaps make some of our shortcomings not so obviously short, but we know we don't need to increase DRG's strengths. And that's what we're talking about. What are those weak points? What would change the community's opinion about us?

For one, we're missing out on a lot of cool armor. For another, our job is somewhat generic. It may be the only one with Jump, but what is jump? Nothing more than damage. And finally, we are on par when our wyvern is out, but it isn't always out. Our wyvern is a 2-hour ability. Why should a 2-hour ability be par when any other job's 2-hour makes them awesome?

So let's talk about that. We don't want to push for changes that will upset the balance of the game. But we do want to enforce that balance. As the thread starts out, 'S-E says they watch the forums' to understand what players like and dislike about this game. There are things we dislike about DRG, and rightly so. So let's explain what problems we have and why they are valid problems.

[fuz]

Well, it's been stated many times, but the wyvern's non-permenance is a particular downfall, because it is integral to the performance of a drg. Drk never looses his attack bonuses, monk never looses the martial arts passives and kick, sam never looses the tp bonuses, etc; no matter if a mob spams AoE attacks or if that character dies and is raised.

Why a drg can lose his wyvern for a maximum of 2 hours is beyond me.

We don't really want the wyvern to be a sub-able ability, so all I can suggest is to add a trait(s) which reduces the 2hr timer to just 15 min or less by lvl 75. Having a wyvern die and not re-summon in an exp pt for 2hrs is just too severe of a penalty. Not to mention absolutely crippling for a drg/mage.

Another concern is the lack of decent backup tanking armor and enmity generation. Now it doesn't take much logic to combine the theory of 'low hate' so 'low def'. However, virtually all melees are asked to backup tank at some point--and for a SC opener like drg, they should do it on a regular basis. So the initial plan of hate sheding as a unique ability of drg, actually makes it a worse job, not better. The full barone set is supposed to aleviate this, but SE in all its unreasonalbe logic, made the armor high in level and insanely rare (which also translates to expensive). So for the average to above average drg, they are not able to possess this ability--and die tanking in 2-3 hits, provided they can pull hate in the first place. Yes you can TA onto the drg, but unless they lower the timer for high-jump to the point where you can use it every time for fast chains, it's not really a good alternative to the old backup tank strategy.

Finally, the last is hnm fights. In this regard, most melees are actually on cleanup duty unless it's a moderately easy to easy fight. Drg actually is just fine for this, as are all other jobs. Melees are never center stage, but drg actually has nothing at all to contribute that coudn't be done better with another job.

Start with ranged: rng, war, thf, sam, and mnk all have decent ranged attacking ability for pure damage output. Drg's wyvern is a ranged attack since it can follow a mob, but it so valiantly dies in moments, from repeated AoE attacks and never puts up significant numbers comparable to any other bow/xbow/gun user to warrant a drg staying in the alliance for so long.

For burst damage in a quick swap, every melee can perform except drg--where wheeling and impulse aren't really more attractive than spirits within... which of course sam does better at. Impulse is actually the only real thing a drg can do, since there aren't many darkness openers. Then again, darkness is so rarely needed, it's negligable. There is no shortage of light openers (from the far too numerous rangers), so drg can't really fill in that role.

And there are some special things that melees can do, like kite or stun, which a drg can't do. A drg/mage comes close, but is far to finicky of a healer to be of much use. I'm totaly stumped on how to give drg a special ability that isn't overpowering but still invaluabe in these fights.

Just .02, off to sleep...

[pooq]

why not just let your wyvern be targeted by all AoE abilities? warcry, rampart... just a few... and how about being able to cure them? i dont think that would make drg to powerful, they cant really cure the wyvern when solo... um. unless SE feels that being able to match damage with the other melee jobs is to broken in damage?:sweat:

[Drogen_Shomuro]

Has anyone ever tried being a drg/whm support healer in an HNM situation? I was just curious if it could work... stand out of range of the nasty mob AEs, but in range of the tanks... then cast Protect to activate heal breath in emergency situations. I'm sure that the tank drops below half occasionally on such runs. You'd still be a fairly effective melee for "cleanup" but you'd be a fairly strong support healer as well. Of course, the downfall of this is that you need to be in the same PT as the tank.

...perhaps they should make it so Healing Breath can target alliance members too.

[fuz]

The main issue of being a healer with the wyvern is that you need to be in the PT, whereas other healers can do just fine outside of the alliance. Normally there is only one, maybe two healers in the tank PT. Everyone else just heals from outside to spread hate around. Drg's healing isn't quite good enough to warrant being in the main alliance, and they can't heal outside of a pt, or even other alliance members in it. Drg also does not have any of the desired buffs that the mage jobs have.

Wyvern also needs to stay alive (and not sleeping or something). Some of the AoE attacks are virtually unavoidable, so you will take damage eventually. The breaths are also a bit delayed, not quite good enough to match a cure 3/4 from a rdm with fast cast which heals for more. There are too many things working against a drg as a main healer, even though it seems like it could work in theory--it's just not flexible enough to match a real mage.

Actually with the wyvern, drg seems to beat most melees in damage right now quite easily. Only possible exceptions I'm aware of are a blinged out monk or ranger. I do not know if they will shorten the recast timer at the cost of lower wyvern damage. Obvioulsy without the wyvern, drg damage is just... acceptable, like thf or sam damage. Fights are noticeably longer without the wyvern.

[Skygto]

Alot of people want a Lancet like ability for Dragoon. But if it restores health it'll be too much like the Monk ability Chakra. Now one of the most unique things about Dragoon is Jump and the Wyvern. How about if Lancet restores all three of our Jump abilities times. It can be placed on a 5 minute timer so it won't be overpowering. Resetting the timer achieves many of the Dragoons weakness.

Our DoT will increase because we can use Jumps more often, and so would our TP gain. There has been many time when both Jump and High Jump timers weren't ready and I had 70ish TP on a 5th chain.

In an XP party we can also allow the Thief/Darknight/Samurai/Warrior to SATA off us alot more by resetting the Super Jump timer.

Theoretically our Wyvern would be able to stay out longer aswell if we are quick enough to Lancet than Super Jump when a mob does a AoE.

Dragoons will also be SLIGHTLY more useful in HNM fights. With a /Sam sub we can probably get Spirit's Within alot quicker by Meditate, Jump, High Jump, Lancet, Jump, High Jump, Jump, Meditate, etc.

[lionx]

Just a wierd thought, in relation to Lancet move and the 100%TP breath move...why doesnt Lancet suck TP from the mob to the Wyvern? Or something like that? It would reduce specials and vs HNMs you can suck their TP into something useful(or at least they dont use their specials as often). Can have some recast timer...5min or 4 min something like that?

[LordBiGGs]

i've been thinkin about this too, since i always liked dragoons since kane in ff2. most drg's i play with dont even use wyverns anymore, havent seen wyverns much since the 40's and 50's. one idea i had for making drg's slightly more powerful is to give them some tp from their wyvern attacks, maybe just 1 extra tp per hit. i also like the idea of increasing the frequency of jump attacks. this would make drg more viable in HNM fights since they could have some range.

i think breath needs to become more controlled. maybe the wyvern could get a breath attack with a few minute cool down for stun or a ranged attack. this wouldnt really be viable in an exp party, but an ability for drg to send out its wyvern to quick ranged attack and return. this way the wyvern could attack HNM's but most likely not get killed quickly.

as far as exp parties go i think drg's are ok, which is a probably because other melees are good. they just need a slight buffer for exp pt use. but for HNM's drg's are basically worthless. every other job has uses in most HNM's. rdm, whm, brd, smn buff and heal (smn can do some damage). drk stuns has some weak magic, thf is for drops, war can tank or do RA's, sam, rng, mnk have ra's. nin and pld can tank. bst can take care of links. blm stun and nuke. drg is the only job with no purpose, at least on kited HNM's/gods.

[fuz]

One of my old concepts was to change high and super jump so that if they target yourself they shed hate and avoid imminent damage, but if you target the mob, they do def ignoring jump damage with more enmity than normal jump; -20% def, 1/3 provoke for high, and -50% def, 2/3 provoke, and a chance to stun for super. You are stunned for 1-3 seconds afterwards (whether you hit or not) if you use high/super jump for damage to prevent them from being overpowered in places like balista. This will boost output on exp mobs, but I don't think it will add anything significant since exp mobs don't have very high def to really make use of the percentage modifiers. It can also be a bit dangerous with drg's low def. Not to mention monk likely still outdamages drg as it is, so I think there is some breathing room for drg to get some more damage in.

The real difference I'm hoping will show on HNMs. Stacking SA+superjump could be a fairly powerful attack that can also be tricked, though I'm not sure if people are willing to swap in a drg every time SA is up every minute for a jump or WS. I also don't know how the current damage multipliers for jump currently work since the damage is so random, so I can't say for sure it will be significant.

These high/super jump damage mods also gives drg a chance to pull hate if a normal jump and provoke don't work. Or the other way around, if a drg needs to shed hate, it can be done just as easily. I think it adds more tactical use to jumps by adding in some more flexibility as a backup tank/trick partner.

[Balodoth]

I would really like to see DRG use their 2-hour ability like other jobs do. In other words, only when necessary. In that case however, we would need the wyvern buffed up so it actually worked like a 2-hour (with a much shorter lifespan though), and we would need to be buffed up so we could keep up with other jobs in the wyvern's absence.

This of course seems to contradicts S-E's philosophy of the buddy system. In which case a compromise is in order. The wyvern can die. When that happens though something needs to kick in so that the DRG increases his damage output. This would be, in effect, a toggle ability that turns on and off or changes functions when the wyvern is summoned or dies. Let me throw an example out there. Umm, let's do a passive ability called. . . Vampiric Attack where the wyvern regains HP on random attacks (let's assume it goes off at rate of Double Attack). If the wyvern dies, which the ability is designed to prevent, then Vampiric Attack changes function. The DRG now has a boost to critical hits and a very small bonus to ACC. Not only would such an ability serve to enforce the buddy system, but it would increase DRG's power when he needs it most and make other abilities like Super Jump more useful. In addition, it would provide a random boost to WS's, which is one area many agree DRG is lacking.

I do agree that the Super Jump timer seems a little high for getting so little in return. Either you play a role where you never need it, or you are doing something that you need it regularly. Considering the effects it has on your damage output, it could easily be justified for a timer as short as 2 minutes.

[Drogen_Shomuro]

Another random idea: give all jobs a "24-hour" ability, perhaps unlocked by some quest.

For Dragoons, our 24hr would be some kind of giga-flare type attack, to help counter that "our two hour is useless in an emergency" thing. Other jobs can get abilities themed with their jobs as well. They wouldn't unbalance the game either, because they could only be used once every 24 hours, and would only be moderately useful.
Ideas for other jobs' 24hr ability:

Whm: An instant cast, no MP, 100% xp Raise
Blm: Your next spell does 1.5x dmg
Rdm: Instantly restore 25% of your party's mp, at the expense of all your mp.
Mnk: All melee attacks on you will be guarded for 30 secs.
War: 25% atk boost to all PT members for 1 minute.
Thf: Refreshes all JA timers
Sam: Melee TP gain boosted for 30 secs
Drk: Converts all of your HP into dmg for your next hit.
Nin: 25% Haste for 30 secs
Pld: Everyone in PT gains a 15 sec Invincible
Smn: Summon Bahamut
Brd: Allow you to stack 4 songs on PT members
Rng: 100% racc for 30 secs.
Bst: Completely restore your pet's hp, and give it 100tp

...yeah, I was bored.

[Macht]

Well reading the pages since my last post and I'm starting to see repetative ideas now. Some of them are almost exact to what I already stated on the first page just either less developed or a modification of it. While others appear to be spins from fuz's ideas, were fuz seems to have also spent decent time figuring a balance to the abilities or changes suggested.

The idea that I see needing more work though is the one suggesting a passive ability that alters when the wyvern is present or not. The +crit and +acc vs. hp drain for wyvern is to unbalanced for a cover. It in a way almost promotes not using the wyvern.

A modification though I can see a bit more possible is a passive that kicks in for a set time and only after the wyvern has died. You could call it "Dragoon Spirit" and for say 5 min. or 10 min. the DRG gets a boost to his power. The problem is it still promotes the wyvern's death or non use.

That could probably be compensated by adding a sort of calculation to figure how many battles the wyvern went through, the monsters difficulty, and the wyvern's starting HP on the battle of it's demise. Then with that have it calculate a ranging strength that the DRG will get when his wyvern dies. In this way the DRG shouldn't hesitate to use his wyvern and will be attempting to keep it alive as best as he can. This would mean that each victory with the wyvern is more power for the DRG when his wyvern meets it's unfortunate end.

EDIT:

Upon further inspection of that idea, I also noticed it helps develop the DRG's 2hr as well. The wyvern now acting as a sort of power sink, so the Dragoon gets a 2hr like effect when his wyvern dies.