SE and the Dragoons

[Macht]

Do keep in mind when thinking of the DRGs abilities that they should be partner like with the wyvern. In an essense the Wyvern is suppose to be part of the DRG and grow with the DRG.

The idea of restoring a wyvern to life after a death is intresting. Though only having you and it share health loss is to much like Spirit Link, the mathmatics to make that possible would put the DRG of needing full health and taking him down to 1 HP to restore his wyvern for balance purpose.

Also the idea of rest for the wyvern is a definate no. It's clear SE wants the two to act as a single entity sharring between eachother, there use to be a glitch were the DRG could get up and attack while his wyvern rested. They removed that glitch because the wyvern isn't suppose to be seperate of the DRG.

The idea of setting the Wyverns recall timer to that of what it would take for it's health to be restored sounds intresting and close to what I suggested. The only worry I have is it might make the players not care as much about the DRG and Wyvern relationship. The wyvern might end up being used as another summons in a way which is clearly what isn't wanted.

What can be done though is taking something of the PLD design and using with DRG (a little bit), something like an Assist. Were the Wyvern will defend the DRG and attack the mob, but during that time the DRG is restricted from fighting and can not rest. This allows the DRG to use his spirit link more freely to better enphasise the DRG and Wyvern relationship. As an added benefit the wyvern can be emporewed in someway while it's defending it's partner the Dragoon.

That idea I just put up is a little new from reading the resent posts, I'd still have to tweak it's design and re-evaluate if I see it to be to have to much power. The ones I put up before for the most part I've been putting a lot of thought in, I have a whole slew of other ideas of how the DRG can be designed but it comes down to the basic of if the players will like or not.

There is thousands of different ways you can design the DRG and still keep in tact the DRG and Wyvern relation. The wyvern isn't suppose to be an extra oomph, it's suppose to be your other half (or 1/4, or however you currently see it).

The Wyvern being part of the DRG is apparent already in their starting design. 2hr the Wyvern so that the DRG is forced to treat the Wyvern as a partner, or at least that the logic. The logic can be seen in that when the wyvern is released if it has full health the 2hr automaticaly goes to 0, but if any is missing you have to wait for what ever is left on that timer. Then you can see that the DRG and Wyvern are a partner relation in that spirit link removes HP from the DRG to sustain the Wyvern.

So if you are thinking up things for the DRG do keep in mind that the Wyvern is suppose to be a partner not a tool.

EDIT:

Forget the idea I posted up to similar in mind to what I already thought up for DRG/PLD. Would defeat the purpose of Fend and is to powerful, spirit link would still get it's same benefits with DRG/PLD having the wyvern doing Fend.

[DakAttack]

Originally posted by Macht

The Wyvern being part of the DRG is apparent already in their starting design. 2hr the Wyvern so that the DRG is forced to treat the Wyvern as a partner, or at least that the logic. The logic can be seen in that when the wyvern is released if it has full health the 2hr automaticaly goes to 0, but if any is missing you have to wait for what ever is left on that timer. Then you can see that the DRG and Wyvern are a partner relation in that spirit link removes HP from the DRG to sustain the Wyvern.

There have been way too many times where the health bar appears to be full but is actually missing 1 or 2 points of health and completely ruins everything. I have to dismiss it if I want to ride a chocobo, which happens frequently enough that this has become a serious problem. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if I were given numbers instead of a bar that appears to be full.

[little ninja]

id like to see drg send out wyverns to pull. it be a 30 second cast. just long enough to last a full battle, before its time to pull again. cause lets face it. this is another reason why drgs dont get pt invites..

[Macht]

Serves me right for just skimming

Alright read more indepth the posts after mine.

Fuz I'm aware the wyvern can gain some abilities with the AF and AF2 armor. The idea though was to change that some, to were those armor pieces enhanced those abilities instead.

The basic logic I was putting was to make DRG/YYY slightly better then ___/YYY but not make it were it could be stronger then YYY/___ . Then have the AF and AF2 armor just set the DRG/YYY a little closer to YYY/___ but still not equal or beyond.

The only reason for the design is because many times players would preffer to be able to control when the ability is used and not rely on the Wyvern to determine when it should be used. The traits is to maintain that randomness just like players have with their passive traits.

Kailea-D the Breath idea for a 2hr is intresting but a bit to repetative to the RNGs Eagle Eye Shot. Instead since I'm thinking of that now I end up with this as an idea:

2hr
Caricature - Wyvern does effect depending on sub.
WAR (Veracity Breath) - For 30 seconds parties accuracy and range accuracy is maxed out.
WHM (Benison Breath) - Raises a stat depending on weather/day (Fireday - STR, Water - MND, Light - ALL at half, Dark - MP)
BLM (Fount Breath) - Negates recast times for DRGs abilities for a set time, or negates parties recast times for abilities for a set time (Still have to work this out, both are feesible depending on how much time you provide definatly have to exclude other 2hr counters).
MNK (Myriad Breath) - All elements breath.
THF (Subterfuge Breath) - Resets monster's hate, becomes unclaimed if a non-aggro monster eventually will walk off unless engaged. (Of course will not work on a monster someone else has claimed).
BRD (Intonation Breath) - Active Songs power is increased.
BST (Lax Breath) - Monster gains effects of slow.
DRK (Crimson Breath) - Magic and Attack boost to party.
PLD (Decaying Breath) - Monsters defense nullified.
RNG (Citadel Breath) - Party can avoid set amount of damage.
RDM (Flurry Breath) - Party haste.
SAM (<Can't think a name>) - TP gain is doubled (for party???)
NIN (<Can't think a name>) - DRG deals damage depending on HP lost.

Think that's all the jobs, not sure if I missed one. Anyways before anyone makes out the point of how some of the abilities are like DRG/RNG having a 2hr to raise defense, I named the ability Caricature for a reason.

EDIT:

This was my first pass on the idea for the 2hr, have to look at is again and think about each one try to find situations were these with make to powerfull or unappropriate.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Impaction
There have been way too many times where the health bar appears to be full but is actually missing 1 or 2 points of health and completely ruins everything. I have to dismiss it if I want to ride a chocobo, which happens frequently enough that this has become a serious problem. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if I were given numbers instead of a bar that appears to be full.

That's the reason of my stating something like a 1hr recall time and adjust the recall time remaining depending on HP so if you are at like 99% and dismiss the Wyvern, then you only have a 6 min. wait to get it again. That'll likely run out before you get off of chocobo.

The time has to be such that the player just won't freely dismiss the wyvern or try to use it like a BST does his pets. Has to be were the DRG treats the Wyvern with a bit more respect and not throw it out to just die.

[fuz]

Bst and smn have multiple choices for pets/summons, so they are used like disposable items. They are available in most any circumstance and at any time. Drg only has a wyvern--even if the re-summon was only 5min, a drg could very well be crippled for those 5min if he was healer.

Come to think of it, the wyvern isn't a wyvern at all--except for the holy alignment (and light resist wyverns posess), it has front arms which wyverns aren't supposed to. If it is indeed a dragon like fafnir, shouldn't it have some potent regen and def?

[Metrou]

I think you need to learn to read, take your own advice and calm the f*** down you ****

He did not call you fuz there is someone posting on this topic who's username is fuz Einstein.

I dont even see anything in his post that comes off as being an ass or sarcastic, did you not take your meds today or something?


oh and let me make sure to spell it out for you. I am being an ass you sorry sack of shit!

[Kailea]

Kailea-D the Breath idea for a 2hr is intresting but a bit to repetative to the RNGs Eagle Eye Shot. Instead since I'm thinking of that now I end up with this as an idea:

mmm yeah good point, I did not think about that, but your expansion of that idea is nice.

[Balodoth]

Said it before, I'll say it again

First of all, let's not make specific suggestions. That is the quickest way to make sure an idea isn't used. Instead, if we discuss the job and how it affects the metagame, we may very well be able to steer S-E in the direction we want. So, let me throw a couple subjects out there for discussion.

1) DRG is perceived as a "swiss army knife" melee. In other words, they can do a lot of things well, but they aren't as good as the real tool by itself. With the exception of flying creatures, which we have a bonus to, and bones, which we have a deficit to, we are on par with any other class. The perception, however, isn't an overall view. It's based on single hits that come through. And any single hit a DRG makes doesn't measure up to that massive hit someone else gets. Damage doesn't need to be increased, but it would do well to be grouped together for easier digestion by the party.

2) As an extension of the point above, every job has a niche, and DRG is, once again, a "swiss army knife." Of course, if you're lost in the woods, do you want a 9" blade or a 3" blade and a toothpick? DRG is the most versatile job in the game on the basis that the wyvern can gain abilities based on the subjob. The only problem with this is that the gain, the impression that the subjob specializes DRG, isn't enough. Subjob versatility isn't a niche. But it can be.

3) Now we come to point three, the point most people are discussing here. The wyvern. An excellent idea was brought up that the inherent difference between DRG and any other pet job was that our wyvern is a part of the team, a sidekick if you will. The only problem is that they aren't a close friend if they're dead half the time. Many parsed logs show that DRG usually sits around 80-85% of average melee damage, with the wyvern providing 15-25% more (an educated guess since I don't have that info with me right now). In other words, a DRG has the ability to be the top damage dealer; however, if the wyvern cannot be summoned, that DRG will certainly suffer.

All in all, I think this comes down to one thing. DRG needs an overhaul. Let's not tweak it. Let's not add a little tiny change now and a little tiny change in a few months. For instance, a minor problem is lack of equipment. Another problem is how it functions during the endgame when melee in general has problems. Why try to address all these problems individually when we can proverbially "kill two birds with one stone"?

What does DRG need to keep? Given my experience with Final Fantasy games, I would prioritize jump over the wyvern. I do feel though that S-E will not consider denigrating the wyvern to a one-shot wonder or nonexistence.

What can DRG lose? Well, it actually doesn't seem to have much to begin with. This is especially true of traits. Why we don't have a passive jump ability is beyond me (think X% chance of animation and bonus to critical hit rate). If DRG can lose anything it would be the Attack bonus, possibly Super Jump. I know many will disagree, but if you have to give up something--and the dragon defense isn't an option--that would probably be the best options.

What does DRG need? More specialization through the subjob used. As was mentioned before, we don't want DRG to replace that main job, but it would be great for that to play a larger role, perhaps take it in a new direction. I don't think S-E will ever be able to justify /BST or /SMN unless they allow two pets, but the goal would be for each subjob to change the DRG main job, make it unique and useful in some way or situation. This would have to apply to the wyvern as well. Finally, while the subjob could provide a generic bonus based on its type (as the system works now), it very much so needs specific bonuses that apply only to that job.

One other thing it needs is an extended lifespan for the wyvern. Whether this is through providing a new 2-hour ability and making the summons a smaller ability, or if it's through abilities to boost its resilience doesn't matter. Only that it happens and works significantly greater that it does now. I personally have wondered why my wyvern didn't have a vampiric attack that worked like a HP Drain additional effect (Spirit Drain?) that went off randomly but became more likely the lower its HP dropped. And if S-E intends to allow the wyvern to die (as well they should), then they need to provide a way to function without the wyvern. Maybe it's just the games first toggle ability that turns off or changes function depending on whether the wyvern is summoned. Maybe it's something else entirely. All I ask is that it keep me on par with other jobs while emphasizing what I'm missing without my wyvern around to help me.

Your thoughts?

[DakAttack]

I don't think an overhaul is necessary unless you want to change everything completely around. I understand why it's a two-hour ability, and it isn't that bad if you have Spirit Link. So let's just assume that doesn't need tweaking.

I like Macht's idea about job specific two-hour abilities, but what if they were turned into a two-hour or one-hour pet command? By subbing Dragoon it would completely nullify the effect and thus couldn't become overpowering. This definately is a long shot idea, but if SE could come up with a job specific pet command I'd be happy enough.

Dragoon peak around level 25, and that peak continues until around level 60 where other classes pull into the lead through better equipment and weapon skills. From 25 until 50 you'll be allowd to use a very limited amount of equipment. Brass scale mail, Centurion's/Bastokan, iron scale mail, steel scale mail, brigadine, and then JSE. From 50-60 we've got AF which does offer a good amount. We're left out of the San d'Orian sets of armor, I.M., Royal Knight's, and Haubergeon to name a few. This puts us at a huge disadvantage as Haubergeon because more and more required. Relief comes in the form of an ugly orange 'Caution! Wet floor!' sign we wear around our heads called Assault Jerkin. My suggestion is to add a few more pieces of armor that offer up a beneficial additional effect for our wyverns.

During HNMs Dragoons don't really have much of a purpose other than to build up TP for a Spirits Within. If Ancient Circle were to increase in strength enough to actually become Dragon Killer we might have a small advantage over other jobs. We might see one or two invited with an actual purpose. I don't think SE had in mind the bond between the Dragoon and his Wyvern when they created HNMs.

[Gekoman]

Personally as far as Dragoon goes story wise, I would like to have a quest that would allow our wyvern to mature into adulthood.

we've watched our little wyvern hatch out of its shell and we have grown with it throughout the levels. But there must be a point in time where our relationship has grown strong enough that we are ready to move further.

Perhaps at level 60 when you've obtained all your Af armor you can access this quest. Note that 60+ is where everyone starts to moan about Dragoon.

Then when you're wyvern has matured to adulthood (Can look a bit bigger or you choose what colour it is) after the quest, It then adapts itself to your sub job, doing all the things youve said.

For instance one passive ability would be the Blood Drain ability from hitting a monster with the Dark Knight sub job. This can heal the Dragoon for a bit of health or wyvern.

It would change accordingly with each sub job you change it to, increasing the versatility of Dragoon as well as strength.

*Hopes someone from SE reads this* :p

[Macht]

Maturing into an adulthood is a good idea for visiual asthetics, it would definatly give it some intrest for a time. As long as the DRG gear is designed so it's just improving the abilities then the idea should still sustain the DRG gears abilities by making it now act as an enhancement.

Blood Drain sounds nice but I'm a little conserned it might be a little to overpowered. Afterall the DRK's blood weapon is the DRK's 2hr ability, so it might be to potent to have like that. An alteration to that idea I can think of to give it a little more fairness is possibly something like:

Capricious Absorb - Absorb something random from the monster.

So it could end up absorbing some of one of the monster's abilities, by a random factor which means besides the DRG making an effort to keep his wyvern alive it's a random chance that wyvern will absorb HP but could then also end up absorbing STR, DEX, AGI, VIT, INT, MND, CHR, Attack, Defense, or whatever else that can be thought up instead.

The reason I also feel that giving a blood weapon like ability to wyvern might be to powerful is because the DRG/DRK will have absorb and drain mix that with spirit link and you sort of got a makeshift blood drain. Won't be as effective sure but the ability is there and probably with enough effort I'm sure someone could apply that ability to actual use.

[Sepukku]

Here's a real simple and easy one:
When a DRG /sit's, his Wyvern /heal's and regains HP as if the DRG was /heal'ing. This way, a DRG can have his Wyvern regain HP without losing TP himself, which is a large factor in why DRGs dont /heal in a PT to heal his Wyvern.

[Kailea]

that or a command to make just the Wyvern sit

[Gekoman]

Or just beef up their defense against AoE :sweat: