SE and the Dragoons

[DakAttack]

For those of you who are like me, oblivious to the outside world, I thought Stratic's interview with the FFXI team was very interesting. For one, they're looking to better Dragoon:

FFXI Team:

Of course we plan to adjust things, just like for example the beastmaster which was originally very hard to use and so we added different abilities. Like before there was no release ability, so nobody was playing Beastmaster because they would just end up losing experience so now there is the release ability and so hopefully we will keep looking at what the Dragoon needs and add them like we did spirit link which heals your wyvern when before that wasn't possible. We constantly look for new things and feedback from people for example the Dragoon needs this or is no good because of this. We do realize that the Dragoon is much more popular with American players and want to better it because we know you like it.

Not only that but they look for suggestions on FFXI communities:

FFXI Team:

For example we go to websites such as yours and look at threads. That would be our first priority for feedback is honest mediums such as yours.

If we can come up with some well thought up and viable ideas SE may take them and turn them into something real. In the case of Dragoons it seems the subject is a little touchy; they know we want a change but they aren't sure how to change it to satisfy us. If we take Bungie as a recent example they changed several Halo 2 match types to include the battle rifle as the starting weapon. Bungie was bombarded with requests from the community so they implemented it, just to be bombarded with emails from the people who liked the SMG and didn't voice their opinion about the BR.

The point is that if they view our ideas on message boards they should be fully thought out and explored before posted.

[kuu]

Just look at some other mmorpgs out there to see what happens with a class balance gone wrong.

Then there are some things that just make it very hard to program.

[Macht]

Well with what I've seen with the DRG it seems they had a fine start on making the Wyvern the main focus to the job. Just seems they need to expaind more on it. Seems reasonable that the wyvern have more control commands to use.

The wyvern as the 2hr is sort of reasonable but at the same time sort of not. The DRG are only powerful when they use their Wyvern, but if the wyvern is killed within the 2hrs then the DRG has an impossed weakness. Think they were getting somewhere with the idea of the wyvern being the 2hr but wasn't complete enough.

I think the 2hr should be a sort of boost of power to the wyvern. The wyvern instead should be a seperate ability that when cast the timer doesn't start it's reset until the wyvern dies or is dismissed. Then depending how it leaves the field the DRG is penalized on the timer accordingly (To maintain the sense of the wyvern and DRG partnership).

The mentality I had on the timer penalty is something along this:

Wyvern Dies (1hr penalty)
Wyvern dismissed at full health (Recall timer ready)
Wyvern dismissed with % health lost ( % * 1 hr)

So for example say the wyvern is reduced to 25% remaining a 75% health loss and it's dismissed. The DRG can't recall the wyvern for 45 min.

Other then that an expansion on what the wyvern does depending on sub and level the sub is currently at. Perhaps even add a sort of blood pact set that would varry depending on the DRGs sub.

So for example:

WAR
Wyvern Traits:
Wyvern Attack Boost I (sub at 10)
Wyvern Double Attack (sub at 25)
Wyvern Attack Boost II (sub at 30)

Wyvern Abilities:
Wyvern's Wrath (sub at 5) [When used Wyvern's attacks increases]
Reinforce (sub at 15) [When used Wyvern's defense increases]
Fellowship (sub at 35) [When used the next ability used by another or same Wyvern in the party is doubled for entire party]

WHM
Wyvern Traits:
Magic Defense Up I (sub at 10)
Wyvern Mind (sub at 25) [Assist DRG in MP recovery, bolsters MP Regen slightly]
Magic Defense Up II (sub at 30)

Wyvern Abilities:
Divine Simulacrum (sub at 15) [DRGs next Cure spell gains 5% boost, requires Divine Seal to first be active]

BLM
Wyvern Traits:
Breath Attack Up I (sub at 10)
Breath Attack Up II (sub at 30)

Wyvern Abilities:
Elemental Simulacrum (sub at 15) [Improves accuracy of DRGs next spell cast, requires Elemental Seal to first be active]

MNK
Wyvern Traits:
Subtle Blow I (sub at 5)
Counter (sub at 10)
HP Max Up (sub at 15)

Wyvern Abilities:
Boost (sub at 5) [Wyvern's next attack increased]
Dodge (sub at 15) [Wyvern's evasion increased]
Focus (sub at 25) [Wyvern's accuracy increased]

DRK
Wyvern Traits:
Attack Boost I (sub at 10)
Attack Boost II (sub at 30)

Wyvern Abilities:
Substitue (sub at 15) [Wyvern transfers some of it's attack to the DRG and looses some HP]
Truculent Soul (sub at 30) [If successful Wyvern sacrifices self to deal damage depending on HP remaining, recall penalty reduced based on HP remaining]

PLD
Wyvern Traits:
Defense Up I (sub at 10)
Defense Up II (sub at 30)

Wyvern Abilities:
Wyvern Bash (sub at 15) [Wyvern strikes enemy for major damage]
Fend (sub at 35) [Wyvern shares damage with DRG]

NIN
Wyvern Traits:
Subtle Blow I (sub at 15)

RDM
Wyvern Traits:
Chance Breath (sub at 15) [Wyvern occasionally will use breath attack by itself]
Breath Attack Up I (sub at 20)
Magic Defense Up I (sub at 25)

RNG
Wyvern Traits:
Velocity (sub at 15) [Wyvern attack speed increased]

Wyvern Abilities:
Breath Volley (sub at 30) [Can breath up to 4 sets of breath elements at once, item required with use]

SAM
Wyvern Traits:
Generate TP (sub at 10) [Wyvern occasionally adds TP from it's attack to the DRGs TP]

Wyvern Abilities:
Reflection (sub at 30) [Wyvern enhances DRGs TP gain]

THF
Wyvern Traits:
Evasion Up I (sub at 10)
Evasion Up II (sub at 30)

Wyvern Abilities:
Bait (sub at 5) [Used before Steal, increases steal chance]
Feint Attack (sub at 30) [No hate generated on next attack]


Anyway that's an example of some ideas from my head. Basically almost taking the certain abilities or traits each subjob would have for the player and adding a few twists to them for wyvern use. Tried to design them so their tactics followed the same logic but were some also had some party apeal.

[fuz]

The should weaken the wyvern damage a bit and make it a 10min or less re-summon and not make it a 2hr. Or at least make it raise-able. Right now, a drg is very dependent on the wyvern as a part of the main job, instead of being a little bonus in cases where a little extra ooph is needed. (It's sort of both atm.) A drg without a wyvern performs very poorly in many situations. They are decent, but lacking in abilities--a drg/mage in balista, for example is very crippled without it. Even standard mobs, without the wyvern to aid, a drg does not produce the damage needed to offset the low power WS and average melee hits.

There is no job that relies so heavily on a skill that has a cooldown of 2 hours for standard operating procedure--it's simply unfair. I guess that's the most glaring issue that needs fixing.

The wyvern can gain support abilities with the relic armor--I forget which piece, so I doubt they will make that happen as a passive.

[DakAttack]

Nice Macht, sounds like you've been thinking about this.

I would suggest adding all the same pet commands Beastmasters get such as Dismiss, and Reward. Rest would also be an invaluable pet command that would make the Dragoon's life a lot less hectic. Whenever I think of Spirit Link I think of shared effects, such as I get healed and so does the wyvern, or I use Berserk and the Wyvern shares the same effect.

I would also like to see breath attacks as an ability rather than a weapon skill. Every three minutes or so you can use a random breath attack, or maybe one of your choice, on a monster. If it's one of your choice you could use it to magic burst which would help you become a little more useful in a party. Wyvern breath has been a lot more powerful than a Drk's magic, and there isn't always a Blm around. It would help add a bit of versatility. The Wyvern's weapon skill could be replaced by something more specific to your weapon skill.

Last of all I'd like to see Ancient Circle become stronger with traits as you level so that's it's actually worth using in a HNM fight. If it could eventually give your entire party Dragon Killer you'd be an invaluable member against dragon HNMs.

[Kailea]

Macht I like your ideas, the make since and are not outragesouse crazy ideas, if they ever revamed DRG...I would like it ot be like that.

[Seldzar]

These are a few ideas I'd like to throw in.

1: I think if the Wyvern dies the Drg should be able to "Raise"it with a JA of some kind, both the wyvern and the Drg would then gain the weakened effect like they would if the Drg had died, the time would vary depending on level and sub. This would mean that a Drg couldnt let their wyvern die and raise it again during a fight (thus stopping the ability being over powered).

2: If a Drg dies while the wyvern is out and the timer is anywhere in the 2hr recast time, the Call Wyvern recast timer is set back to 0.

3: Another way to heal the wyvern, (such as pet commands to make it rest, or a chakra type ability), and more ammo/ranged slot items to increase the power of the wyvern. And more armour for Drg.

[GSDragoon]

The wyvern is fine as is when it's alive. It does decent dmg and is awesome with a mage sub. The problem is keeping it alive. Fighting weapons in sky/moon is very common 70+. They like to spam whirl of rage for 100+ dmg. You pretty much have to spam spirit link every 3 minutes to keep it alive. If your fighting gods or NM's, forget the wyvern. Just about all of them spam AoE. I don't even bother with it in exp parties anymore, and I don't even think about it for gods. The problem is not what the wyvern can do, but how do keep it alive.

[Caspian]

I just find that the dragoon 2hr is their wyvern as odd. No other job has to use its 2 hour to be effective in a party (which you say you have to have it to do equal dmg, never parsed a drg fight myself), in every other job they are something you use to save your and your party's asses (outside of maat fights and some hnm's, im talking about exp parties). Granted, no other job's 2hr last potentially forever, but parses I have seen show you have to have your wyvern in order to do equal dmg compared to other melee. This seems to me more like rangers and the use of barrage (later on, w/o it there overall dmg would be much less). Maybe if they made the wyvern either permanent (or more likely a 5 or 10 min recast) and made a 2hr much like the beastmaster 2hr.
This is just my opinion and keep in mind I dont play dragoon at all so this is an outsider's stab at doing something useful.

[fuz]

Currently every drg that I've PT-ed with does on average with the wyvern, the most damage in the PT. Granted, I haven't had a war or a mnk in the same pt to compare their damage figures, but they pretty much slam my drk in output, except when I use souleater liberally.

[DakAttack]

Regarding Dismiss:

It should be available at all times without outright killing your Wyvern. It should drop the Call Wyvern timer down to however many seconds it would have taken to heal the Wyvern to full health at the time of dismissal. This would stop abuse while also making it useful.

[Drogen_Shomuro]

To me, I don't think dragoons need all that much tweaking. Even though our wyvern is somewhat useless in emergency situations unless you have a mage sub, it's one of the tradeoffs we make for having a 2-hour that potentially lasts forever.

Few people take full advantage of the versatility of the wyvern as well. Drg/mage is an incredibly efficient healer

As for the survivability of the wyvern, I think it's a legitimate weakness that prevents wyverns from being too powerful. With Spirit Link, I only have problems keeping my wyvern alive while fighting goblins, simply because of the outrageous amount of damage those bombs can do. In those situations, I simply summon when I WS, Spirit Link if needed, then Dismiss. Call Wyvern then becomes a 5 minute ability that increases your weaponskill dmg by ~100.

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One change I would like to see though... Make spirit link so it doesn't consume the full 35% of your hp when your wyvern doesn't need that much healing. Currently, the hp healed on the wyvern is proportional to how much hp you lose, but you give up 35% of your hp whether or not your wyvern needs 10 hp healed or 500 hp healed.

I also think the elemental breath attacks need tweaking. For one, when I close a SC the breath attack doesn't time properly for an MB 100% of the time. The second thing is: I think the breath attacks should be a little bit less resistable; I often see them get resisted down to 20 damage or so.

[kuu]

Drg already do a heck of a lot of damage with the pet out, and it's free hate besides.

They do even more on vt-low IT monsters, which is a tactic in selecting job classess.

Perhaps reward option is a good suggestion. Optional, and sometimes need it. You spend money to be good, and against not destructive AoE not needed.

[Kailea]

This is what I was thinking of, dont just tweak one or the other heavaly, tweak both DRG and Wyvern togeather and just a bit. This is what I got in my head.

Dragoon:

2hr: Mega Breath- Wyvern Deals massive non-elemental damage to the target.

1hr: call Wyvern- calls Wyvern

Keep the other abilities the same but change the jump times by abit (jump=30sec Sjump=3min Hjump=5min)

Also give Dragoons the inate abilities of haveing +10 acc with Polearms only

Wyvern:

Give Wyvern a mixure of pet commands and summon pacts

The DRG can heal the Wyvern with pet food and tell the Wyvern to attack with breath useing skills, that will cost the Wyvern MP and have a timer of 5 mins, only thing is the Wyvern will no longer breath attac with a WS or heal Breath with healing.

basicly the Wyvern becomes a normal pet/summon that does not take MP to keep out or is on a timer., off set this by lowering the amount of damage the Wyvern does by just a bit.

and on a final note, when the Wyvern dies, the Dragoon will recive a power boost for 5 mins, what I like to call enraged

[Skygto]

I like Dragoon's 2 hour, it's alot more unique than the others. What I would like is an ability that would make Dragoons more desirable post-60 and in HNM battles.

Level 60 - Shift - 3:00 Recast
When you have the attention of the monster, useing Shift behind a party member will transfer some hate from them to you.