Advice from wiser players

[SelfdestButton]

ok, significant is a relative term so I'll make an allowance for your argument being valid.

However, my spirit link has never stopped me from obtaining a chain 5, ever. So far as that is concerned it's worth an extra 300-400 damage a fight. Believe it or not, while that thing is out it is omgwtfbbq DoT over other melee.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by SelfdestButton

However, my spirit link has never stopped me from obtaining a chain 5, ever. So far as that is concerned it's worth an extra 300-400 damage a fight. Believe it or not, while that thing is out it is omgwtfbbq DoT over other melee.

The issue isn't just obtaining chain 5, it's how much MP you have at the end of the chain that matters. Unless the number of available spawns is way lower than what you can kill (which sometimes happens when there's competition, etc.), the difference between parties becomes how long you have to wait before you can start a new chain.

Bad party: Can't reach chain 4
OK party: Can reach chain 5, but with downtime
Good party: Can reach chain 5 with ease, and push for 6++ with minimal downtime

When fighting anything with AoE damage, DRGs almost invariably force parties into the "OK" category. This is particularly true in the 70+ range, when chain 5 is the minimum expectation, and where virtually everything you fight does AoE damage (minor exception made for Kuftal Tunnel, but that XP is pretty meh unless you have the right setup).


Icemage

[DakAttack]

Super Climb allows the wyvern to dodge the AE attack if timed correctly. Alternate Super Jump/Climb, with Spirit Link and good timing and it'll only be half as bad as you make it out to be.

Most of the time I tell the Whm not to heal me if my health is about 1/3, but drop me a Regen and I'll be good. I can manage my hate well enough that I only have to worry about AE attacks, so I ask for a heal whenever I think I'll bite it if I can't Super Jump the AE.

At one point in Gustav we were chaining Gobs, and we were up to chain four. At that point the puller grabbed the fifth gob and pulled it back. Half way through the fight another gob linked and it seemed like they were juggling bombs and dropping most of them. I decided to walk off and heal after we killed the first one. As soon as I /heal I see everybody's animation stop. The gob reachs into his pocket, tosses a bomb, and kills everybody including himself. I was just out of his distance. Chain six for me just because I needed to heal my wyvern. I didn't know what to say, or how to feel, but I was pretty happy with myself. I know that sounds wrong but my only weakness was my only reprieve in that situation which worked out pretty well.

All other times with my Wyvern out I'm the top DD.

[Icemage]

I'm not arguing the point that DRG do more damage than other DDs with the wyvern out up to level 65ish or so. They do, and I am usually happy to invite a DRG into my parties up until that point if the conditions are right.

After that though, DRG's damage advantage even with the wyvern is almost non-existent, and falls way short if the wyvern isn't out. Sure overall damage with the wyvern is still marginally higher under optimal circumstances, but the operative word is "marginally", and the lack of big damage closer WS really hurts.

I don't say these things because I have any dislike of dragoons, by the way. I have good friends who play the job, and I helped a friend get to level 75 DRG by helping him form parties on my bard job. But my comments stem from first-hand experience, seeing the very visible difference at high levels between parties with DRG vs. parties without.

I'm not saying you can't have good parties with DRGs, even at high levels. But the *likelihood* of a party being good with a DRG at 70+ is virtually nil. Not even with the best gear possible (AF2, cursed armor, etc. etc.). The previously mentioned DRG friend is an excellent player, and has extremely good gear (cursed armors, AF2, etc.) and yet not once was one of our parties better than average, from level 71 to level 75.


Icemage

[kuu]

Drg 70+ will kufkal and most probably want a blm(s) along. Their TP gain is superior to almost any DD, and their pet adds damage for free.

With a Drg/war that knows his stuff can SC by the 4th attack which, I'm assuming the at least another melee can match it somehow.

Chain 5 should not be an issue in there, unless you're way underleveled.

The most painful for Drg is the fly stage as AoE are harsh. Usually most xp monsters don't have super destructive AoEs.

Really Drg's haven't had much problems with Sushi foods now available. If you miss your jumps often, you should really be slapped.

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Dunno why drgs always turn topic about drg vs drk when ppl trying to talk about drg -_-

[SelfdestButton]

It's usually a pretty substantial advantage with a wyvern even after 70 as I've observed many times. As for lacking a big closer WS...

Well, that's a term with a shade of ambiguity to it. SA'd Shark Bite/dragon kick/Gekko I have all seen consistently equalled (and outdone) by SA wheeling thrusts in one situation or another, yet wheeling thrust isn't even lightly regarded as a closer by most people, except mnks who don't want to sub thf and would rather have the drg do it.

[GSDragoon]

yet wheeling thrust isn't even lightly regarded as a closer by most people, except mnks who don't want to sub thf and would rather have the drg do it.

Even that is a no no. MNK/WAR gains TP really fast. DRG/THF is just going to behind on TP if they don't sub WAR.

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: Advice from wiser players

The opposition is right, Drg may have it's strengths, and it may work in it's own way. But the ultimate truth is Drg is the least invited job in the game, and you will spend more time wishing you had another job then anything else.

This may be too late for the OP to respond to, but heres my scoop. Whm is the central member of a party, and no matter what you want to do in the game, lvling a Whm to lvl 37, and Blm to lvl 18 will get you alot of friends and make the game in whole extremely easier for you. This is a suggestion I have for every player no matter what you are.

This does 3 things, first you get connections being a Whm, other ppl will become attached to you, and you will always have a little something to fall back on. Connections is the absolute fastest and effortless way to get through the entire game no matter what job you are, with the least amount of work and effort. Drg with 100 connections Vs Ranger with 0 = Drg at lvl 75 before the Rng hits 60. Second getting to that lvl, and getting the teleport and warp spells can, will save you time and money over the course of the game, which can add up to dozens of hrs, and thousands of gil, as well, you can turn a small profit teleporting ppl if you run dry on gil and don't feel like trying to farm. The third reason is that Whm is a great sub for any mage class, and also a great sub for Drg, expecially during those "seasons" when you are alone, and need to learn to solo.

As a fourth reason, I will note, that a Galka has more success being a Whm then a taru does at being any melee class, actually, a Galka Whm will have more success getting parties, connections, and being more helpful to his party then a Galka being a melee class. This is because of the extreme effectiveness mage classes have over melee classes. Furthermore, the average Whm can get through the game spending generally less gil on his spells and equiptment then a DD will spend on the best equiptment possible to be accepted, and a Whm is 20 times more likely to have a random person help or give you items, scrolls, or armor out of charity then a melee DD.

About the only thing more popular then a Whm is a Bard or a Mastered Summoner. I spent 2 years and only got to lvl 60 Drg with my Hume, it tolk me 3 months to lvl BLM, and Whm to 30 and Brd to 43, and almost no wasted sit time. Matter a fact, I spent nearly as much time turning away bad party setups as a bard, as I did trying to get a place in any party as a Drg.

[Hereaux]

Re: Advice from wiser players

thanks for the great post, Kaiser. Your point of leveling blm and whm to 18 - 37 respectively actually crossed my mind several times. Now with the higher exp from ep's and the exp rings, although they're limited, I've thought about doing this even more and just soloing as a DRG/WHM. Thanks for the input, its much appreciated and thanks to the rest of you who actually gave some constructive advice rather than just downing the job.

[DakAttack]

Re: Advice from wiser players

It's true we don't get invites very quickly, and that's why I tell people to level two main jobs. One should be one you love, while the other should be one that gets easy invites but one that you still enjoy. That way when you're itching to party you can switch into an easy invite job and do it.

I leveled Paladin as my easy invite job, but I wish I had leveled White Mage, it would have been a good sub for Dragoon.

[Omni]

Re: Advice from wiser players

As a fourth reason, I will note, that a Galka has more success being a Whm then a taru does at being any melee class, actually, a Galka Whm will have more success getting parties, connections, and being more helpful to his party then a Galka being a melee class. This is because of the extreme effectiveness mage classes have over melee classes. Furthermore, the average Whm can get through the game spending generally less gil on his spells and equiptment then a DD will spend on the best equiptment possible to be accepted, and a Whm is 20 times more likely to have a random person help or give you items, scrolls, or armor out of charity then a melee DD.

not true. it all depends on what's needed at the time.
overall? still not true. i really dont think people look at race as much as people like to think.
whm just gets more inv. period than most melee classes before 60. imo, whm tend to drop off in usefullness after 60, however they are always nice to have if the pt config is right.
fast kill pt? whm no thanks. i prefer the busy combo of rdm + brd.
high xp/challanging mob pt? i like the 3 stooges. rdm, blm, whm.

[lionx]

Re: Advice from wiser players

i like the 3 stooges. rdm, blm, whm.

Lol 3 stooges ><

Pimp, Witch, and Condom [hat] ._. ooooooo...

[Cyborg]

Re: Advice from wiser players

you just dont know the pain it is as a drg sitting there for a party lol, and you now what, drg is a great job they just need to be more "uber" or given a JA or WS that powers them up to increase there ws damage

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: Advice from wiser players

PPL dont look at race because job is so much more important. Alot of the easy classes become crowded at the top because so many ppl get to the top quickly with Whm, Blm, Brd, and Rng. But the defining truth is there is only 1 healer in the game, and 2 other classes that can fake it. And a party will always want 1 healer, and 1 or 2 ppl with the ability to back up heal, not including a Pld who uses healing to continuously tank. That means there is a party slot for whm for every party made.

Now the basic party setup involves 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 nuker, 1 refresher, and 2 DD. There are 3 tank jobs, 1 nuker job, 1 healer job, 2 refresher jobs, and 7 DD jobs, aside from that there is the all around class, Smn, and the solo class, Warrior counts as a DD and tank class. As a DD you can also be replaced by a Smn, or another Blm, leaving 1 or no slots in that party for a DD. If all parties are typical, a DD competes with 9 classes (inclusive) for his chance at those 2 slots, that means for every party there is 2/9 opening for a DD. This is very simple math for even someone who doesn't know fractions, 1 is more then 2/9, 1/2 is more then 2/9, 1/3 is more then 2/9. There are 4.5 times more chances for a Whm in most parties then then any DD. This means 2 things, first is 0 competition from other jobs, the Whm just has to beat other Whm for that healer slot, second is low chance of comparison, DD get compared all the time, and the typical party will take another Blm, Rng, or a good Smn over any melee DD, that means if the party has a choice they will only get 1 melee DD, and then your down to 6 competitors for that 1 slot.

Even at higher lvls, there are more opening for Whm then Drgs, aside from being passed up for other classes alone, every DD feels this toll as the lvls get higher, and wile the amount of Whm is high at higher lvls, they still have opportunities.

As for a Gauge of effectiveness in a party, Whm is the only one who doesn't have his effort resisted by enemy defense, the 2 or 3 exceptions aside, Whm do Cure spells in majority, and cure spells get full effectiveness on teammates, not like attacks and and attack magic. Furthermore, A galka can provide more HP and Vit as the tank to provide resources for the party, which could be construde as more effective for the party, But a Galka can also provide that as a Whm, and Whm do get hit..... truthfully, it is the Whm who is most fragile, and having some HP and Vit on your Whm can help the party very well also.

In the end race is just a small fraction, which can very well make you less effective then someone with a more effective race in the same job, items can be obtained by both parts making the race difference the final factor, but Job class is the real discriminant factor, and being the least popular job with a less the great melee class can pretty much ensure that you will spend a year of dedicated grind and wait to arrive as a Drg. A Drg can't compete with any mage for Party possition, not with the best race on the Drg part and the worst race on the Whm part, no competition.

Which goes back to my original suggestion, do Whm, you will find that you can do Whm and Drg in the same amount of time as it takes to do Drg by itself, but you will spend less time waiting and get alot more done.