Advice from wiser players

[Kailea]

Drg is perfectly fine in exp PTs from 1-75. Just continue parsing them past 60, 66+ and you'll see that they keep up just fine in damage. It's just that an exp setup is no indication of what lies ahead in the harder HNM or BCNM fights.

now this I agree with, in my last post I said nothing about DRGs being good at HNMs, but I could care less about endgame, the point of playing is not endgame, it is the path to it that counts. I love DRG and the way it plays, and that does not mean I am a fanboy, as someoen called me, I admit DRGs dont do well at endgame, butlike I said, I could give a tarus ass about end game, I am leveling DRG to say hey I leveled it to 75, I but I have any other jobs to level for endgame. It is just, most people say hey DRG sucks at endgame so that means the job suck period and nooen should play it, now that is what I dislike.

[Icemage]

DRG is a sub-optimal DD choice at level 70+. Main reason being, everything you fight has AoE.

If you parse a DRG's damage, they keep up fine or do slightly better than other DDs while the wyvern is alive and active. Without the extra damage from the wyvern, DRG damage at 70+ falls way behind other melees.

Unfortunately, your XP choices at level 70+ consist of:

Weapons in Ro'Meave/Shrine of Ru'Avitau/Ve'Lugannon Palace. These do Whirl of Rage virtually every fight, which decimates wyverns, to the point where even Spirit Link cannot keep up in a good party, and even trying will bleed your healers dry.

Aura Statues in Shrine of Ru'Avitau. Crystal Rain, Ice Break, Thunder Break are all high-damage AoE which will kill your wyvern within a few fights, Spirit Link or no Spirit Link.

Demons in Uleguerand Range. Demon's (lightning elemental) Spirit will Thundaga III, the Kindred Black Mage can cast all kinds of nasty -ga, as can Smolenkos. In addition, demons in this zone have a very nasty wide-angle cone AoE WS called Condemnation which does disgusting amounts of damage.

King Buffalo in Uleguarand Range. This is the only XP camp where having a wyvern is not a detriment. No AoE damage (other than the negligible Snort), and the wyvern is not penalized for being Plagued. I could see DRG/WHM being very useful at this camp.

Spartoi Warriors/Sorcerors/etc in King Ranperre's Tomb. DRG get penalized for piercing damage against bones, and the AoEs here (Black Cloud, Grave Reel, Blood Sabre, etc) make having an extra pet to draw HPs from and heal a liability, not an asset.

But as you can see, of the 5 most popular XP targets, DRG is only going to keep up with other DDs at one of them, and it's the least often used camp, at that.


Icemage

[fuz]

Every time I parse them, they are about even with my drk individually. Add the wyvern, and they soundly beat me.

Drg doesn't need to rely on their wyvern, but it does help a lot by adding 10-20% more on top of the damage that a drg can do.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by fuz
Every time I parse them, they are about even with my drk individually. Add the wyvern, and they soundly beat me.

Drg doesn't need to rely on their wyvern, but it does help a lot by adding 10-20% more on top of the damage that a drg can do.

Just out of curiosity, what level is your DRK?

Thing is, DRK is not a unidimensional job (though lower level DRKs have a tendency to play them as such). DRK have some very potent tricks up their sleeves. Absorb-Dex, Absorb-Agi, Drain, Stun, etc, which add to the effectiveness of a party. By comparison, a DRG does not bring any utility to the table (unless they are subbing WHM, but that brings their damage numbers down).

Additionally, DRK can, *if necessary* pile on damage in a hurry if they've a mind to, to finish a chain 5+. It might cost, but if you're ending the chain anyway, you generally don't care. DRG has no such abilities (other than Jumps, which, while they do some damage, are almost always in semi-constant use, and thus rarely available for damage-stacking at the end of a chain).

Side-by-side parser comparison is not a fair test, since if you cast Absorb-AGI, the DRG will benefit from the increased accuracy.

Replace a DRK with a DRG in a level 75 party, and I can virtually guarantee your party efficiency will suffer for it.

That's not elitism, it's just reality.


Icemage

[fuz]

True, I do cast often--much more than your average drk, but all my equipment is above average. Have all the expected stuff, full thick set, no outdated gear, no HQs but a lot of equipment for swaping (casting, TP, WS, tanking) like dark torque and phalanx rings. I am lvl 70.

I also know that Bio 2 (which I pull with) unresisted lands about 200 damage that can't be seen, stuns (and the mp they save) can't be parsed, and absorbs hurt my output from the long cast, but boost others in turn. Drk is a fairly complicated job, but really drgs don't seem to be less than equal in damage per fight. Indeed, they have nothing else to offer besides average damage, but it's not bad. I tend to find sams consistently hover a notch lower than either me or a drg in output.

[Icemage]

That's the issue though.

Vs. RNG: Everything a DRG is good at killing, a RNG is better at, and rangers are harder to kill (Utsusemi), stronger (Sidewinder/Slug Shot), and infinitely better pullers than DRGs are. Eagle Eye Shot can win you a Chain 6++.

Vs. MNK: Monks dominate against bones, and are not bad against everything else. Their end-game weaponskills, Asuran Fists, and Dragon Kick, are both huge heavy-hitter WS, totally eclipsing DRG's Wheeling Thrust and Impulse Drive. Hundred Fists is a nice thing to have in reserve too if you're gunning for chain 7+.

Vs. DRK: As mentioned above, DRK have utility which extends beyond their typical damage, Stun is the big winner here, but Absorb-Dex and Absorb-Agi are both tremendously useful when used correctly.

Vs. THF: Even though Shark Bite isn't the strongest WS in the game, it's still stronger than Wheeling Thrust. Thieves also make excellent pullers.

Vs. SAM: Of all the DDs, Samurai are probably the weakest as far as damage over time goes, but where they excel is allowing a party to perform more skillchains than would be normal. This allows for extra magic bursts, which gives them a natural affinity for BLM-enabled parties and makes up for their slightly lower individual damage. Meikyo Shisui is quick fix when you want to push for a higher XP chain.

The only special thing DRG brings to the table is the ability to shed hate, which make them nice hate sinks when they have High Jump or Super Jump available, if they end up as a trick buddy.

Even putting aside all of these factors, however, the most problematical issue with dragoons is that they cannot deal big damage in short time frames. The secret of effective XP is: Big damage, really fast. Monsters pull out WS more often when their HP drops below 25% (they go from "occasionally" WS when TP>100 to "always" WS when TP>100). The best XP parties try to set things up so that the skillchain + magic burst is either instantly fatal for the monster, or leaves it so close to death that it dies within a few more moments. This leaves the party less vulnerable to WS spam, which takes less resources away from the party. Of all the DD jobs, DRG performs this task the least effectively once Penta Thrust goes the way of the dinosaur in the 60s.


Icemage

[Kailea]

You know also you dont always have to get the most exp per hour that you can get, this game isalso not about seeing who can level faster or get as high as you can, I could care less about getting 100, 200, 300 exp per fight, if I am haveing fun, and the others are haveing fun, that is what counts. I have kicked someone out of my PT before for complaining about only getting 150exp per fight, because there was no need to whine about somethign stupid like that.......

[Jei]

my drg friend is using drg/whm and solo from 61-64 VS tough crabs in kuftal he could pull out 100-160exp a kill with out much problem... 64 he moved to boyada and is doing fine too.

[Icemage]

When you've levelled multiple jobs to 75, come back and say you don't care how much XP per hour you've gained. I like a fun party as much as anyone else, but once you've accumulated multi-millions of total XP, it gets to be an awful chore when people can't hold up their end of the bargain, either through flawed game design or bad playing skills. There's a lot more to this game than simple XP grinding, and the less time I have to spend XPing, the more time I can spend doing more fun and interesting things.

And since you're unaware: getting ~150 xp per fight at level 70+ is the norm, not the exception.


Icemage

[Gman]

Originally posted by Icemage
And since you're unaware: getting ~150 xp per fight at level 70+ is the norm, not the exception.


Icemage

And unfortunately, at level 74-75 getting 150exp is a godsend

Of course there are a few exceptions, but it's pretty hard to find IT++ mobs at this level.

Trick is killing very fast. Each mob takes like 45 seconds, and chain 5 is a constant, not a bonus. Kailea-D talks out of his ass too much, or he would know this, and know a PT with a DRG is going to still be in Bibiki bay killing Dhamels for 90-110 exp per kill at 74-75, while the rest of the parties are chaining weapons or Golems in Ru'Avitau for 150+.

DRG can function in a pt or against HNM. We have one in our HNMLS. Problem is they are the least useful person. Sure they do sweet damage against placeholders for trigger NM's like Groundskeepers, etc, but get them up against an actual God and they have real troubles.

One thing I like about SAM is the relatively new SAM/RNG strategy. They actually make a very decent ghetto RNG. Their DOT as a SAM/THF might not be super impressive, but against Gods, HNM, etc they can sit back with the RNG's and Sidewinder almost as good. Nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: oh, and if you dont care about endgame, Kailea-D, why bother taking DRG to 75? Why not just level it, get your AF, retire in your prime, like Jerry Seinfeld did, and move on to another job?

One more thing, KS30 BCNM Operation: Desert Swarm, NIN, RDM, WHM, RNG, SAM, BRD record 7-0. NIN, BLM, RDM, WHM, DRG, THF record 1-3...lucky I didnt use my orb here. orz

[Kailea]

EDIT: oh, and if you dont care about endgame, Kailea-D, why bother taking DRG to 75? Why not just level it, get your AF, retire in your prime, like Jerry Seinfeld did, and move on to another job?

that is what I said I was going to do :p


I want to take DRG to 75, but I am going to us another job for endgame, I just wanted to get DRG to 75 for the heck of it

[SelfdestButton]

All points good, but two things:

SA+Wheeling thrust +STR is about as strong as SATA Shark Bite as far as I've observed (I've observed alot).

Absorb Dex and Absorb Agi are useless.

Spirit link leeches no substantial MP off healers. It's really a trvial amount to cure especially iin comparison to the rest of your pt is eating AoE.

Other than that your arguments are sound.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by SelfdestButton
SA+Wheeling thrust +STR is about as strong as SATA Shark Bite as far as I've observed (I've observed alot).

THF's advantage is their ability to plant hate and superior pulling ability. Their damage is less than a DRG overall, but that's not really why you invite them most of the time. As far as the truth of that statement goes, I saw a 950+ SATASB on a VT weapon in Shrine of Ru'Avitau a couple weeks ago... from a Tarutaru thief. I've never seen Wheeling Thrust hit for that much, ever, on anything.

Originally posted by SelfdestButton
Absorb Dex and Absorb Agi are useless.

Not true. Useless against HNM? Yes. Useless against XP-type enemies? No way.

Originally posted by SelfdestButton
Spirit link leeches no substantial MP off healers. It's really a trvial amount to cure especially iin comparison to the rest of your pt is eating AoE.

There are so many things wrong with this I can't believe you could type this and not get sucked into the logical vacuum. With a wyvern out, the DRG is basically taking double the AoE damage when he uses Spirit Link. Considering that a level 75 DRG will usually drop at least 300HP from Spirit Link (which requires roughly 1 Cure IV to repair), this is an expenditure of MP that your healers don't have to shell out for less high-maintenance melees who offer comparable damage. Unless you want to call that "not substantial"... but I'll tell you that even as a Tarutaru WHM level 75, I'd sure prefer not to have to cast an extra Cure IV or Regen III every 10-15 minutes, not even with a 1100-1200MP max pool. Note that this is IN ADDITION to the Curaga I/II/III/whatever I'm already casting to heal the rest of the party.


Icemage

[SelfdestButton]

I've seen 1100 damage shark bites and I haven't seen Wheeling thrust above 900 damage, but I've seen 350 damage shark bites and I've haven't had wheeling thrust dip below 500 in a long time. Wheeling thrust doesn't outclass THF by any means but it's got two advatages:

-You don't have to TA it for full damage.

-It's on a fusion slot, which is neat.

Absorb DEX and AGI are useless. If you aren't hitting, you either buy better gear or using sushi. There is no exp mob in the game at all that can evade a sushi'd melee properly except maybe hobgoblin blaggers, which absorb DEX or AGI still won't do anything for. The crit rate? pssh.

And no, spirit link usage is justified and insubstantial. Only endgame camp you'll be using it extensively at where it's not hopeless is Ro'Maeve, and it's once every three AoEs. Regen III/cure IV, poof. Get refresh, rest, it's 80 MP no one cares about.

[Icemage]

And no, spirit link usage is justified and insubstantial. Only endgame camp you'll be using it extensively at where it's not hopeless is Ro'Maeve, and it's once every three AoEs. Regen III/cure IV, poof. Get refresh, rest, it's 80 MP no one cares about. [/B]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. 80mp IS significant. Unless I happen to have a RDM *AND* a BRD to back me up, that's going to put a serious crimp in my MP flow if I have to cast it twice in an XP chain (which I have done on many an occasion, and I simply detest it).

When given a choice between:

(1) Regular melee that took 1x AoE damage
(2) DRG with Wyvern who has now forced me to heal twice as much

...I'll give you three guesses which is going to be my preference when forming a party when dealing with anything that has AoE damage.

It'd be a different story if DRG + Wyvern was omgwtfextrabbq damage over other melees, but... it's not, and they aren't. IF the party has an overabundance of MP, then sure, the extra mp cost isn't an issue, but those sorts of parties are pretty rare.


Icemage