~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

[Kailea]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

>.< srry i didnt look at date, i'l be more carefull next time

dont say your sorry, I find it stupid to fuss at someoen for posting on an old thread, if he wants to post on it let him, I get anoyed when people yell at others for stupid crap like that

[neighbortaru]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

oh the irony

[Zanta]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

lol k, thanks ^^

[Khaeos]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Erhm....that would be correct. I had no idea whatsoever that this thread was still up, let alone recieving any more posts on it.

Just came back to check things, and looked in my new subscribed posts thing and happened to see this thread name for some reason. I got negative publicity on it or some such, according to it.

Anyway, glad (in some way I guess) that its still alive. O.o

[xNightwolfx]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Im glad its still up because I just read this WHOLE THING...>.>

Anyway there were things I wanted to comment on but I forgot what they were now....

Oh wait I remember...it was in reguards to the amount a DRK and DRG hit. Im not a high level DRG or anything, only 24 now. But I have partied with two DRK's thus far. One I parsed damage and saw that I hit about 5-10 times more over the course of around 4 battles. So given the fact that they have the same acc, that idea that DRG have less delay means this swing more and if its set up that 80% of the time you hit then DRG would hit more due to this lower delay. This can be seen easily with numbers...if both jobs hit 80% of the time and the DRG got to attack 100 times then the DRK would most likely be able to attack about 83 times. I am not using exact delays but I am estimating the DRK would have about a 1 secound longer delay time(Im using scythes, this can change with GS but I don't know the delay times on these so I cant say for sure). With the idea that both his 80% of the time then the DRG would end up with 80 hits and the DRK would end with 64 hits. The problem with this idea is that over time the amount of hits would become apparent. Lets say now the DRG hit 1000 times. Given the same data the final counts would be 800 and 640. This of course is a world that is black and white, with no other variables to affect anything such as slow, haste, paralyze, double attack, ect. This is also assuming the two have the same acc in the final counts. The point I was trying to make is DRKs *do* hit less then DRGs mathamatically, and that as time progresses this fact could make a distinct differance. But a battle that lasts over 1640 from the DRG and DRK hits to prove this would be hard to imagine...since if the DRK gets the final attack he can still get the first in the next fight, this little factor puts the flaw into the mathematical part because it is possible for the DRG to lose 2 hits every fight if they attack slower and the final hit form the DRK was under a single second for the DRG to attack again. Of course this error magin would reduce as the number of total attacks increaded. In the course of 10 DRG attacks where the DRK gets 8, if the DRG misses out on 2 then both DRK and DRG are at 8 attacks...whereas if their were 100 attacks on a single monster the differance would be 98 vs 83 and the idea of 98 attacks at 80% acc would be 78 hits as opposed to 80. Anyway I think I proved my point on how DRG do actually hit more in terms of amount of times, but not in accuracy.

Oh as for a minor amount of acc added to DRGs. It was in my experiance with the last DRK that I partied with that I hit enough to ws 2 times for each time she could once. This is not always, but there were many cases where I would be at 100% and she would be at 40-60% and by the time she had 100% I could have WS'ed and had been to 100%+ myself or at least to 80-90%. The only differance was I had 3 more acc because of battle gloves. Also I doubt that +3 acc could make the differance of about 30% acc, even in the early 20's. I say that because if I could get about 200% tp in the time she got 100% then it means I hit about 20 times every 10 time she hits. If I assumed i hit at 80% then it means I hit 20 times for every 25 swings. With that said it means the DRK probally attacked about 20 times for every 25 of mine. if she got about 100% tp vs my 200% and she attacked 20 times it means she would have had to have hit about 50% of the time. Also the lower my acc is the lower hers is too. If i lowerd my acc to hitting about 50% of the time it means she hit about 33%. This is of course still assming the DRK has 1 secound longer for delay time and we begin our attacks at the same time. There is play on all these but that is what the real world is. The point is this is data showing that either a simple 3 acc can make a big differance, or somehow DRG does hit more. Well actually there are alot of toehr things that could have affected it and that is why I am not going to use this as my final say. But this is what I have seen thus far. I will be able to better examine this once my DRK friend catchs up so we can static. That should be able to show more accurate data since I will know for sure both our weapons will be capped, will be able to take down delay times, AND we will be the same race. With the same gear at the time of the parsing(I will work with my gear to amke it be her exact gear). Also we will have the same subjobs. But that will be in a later post, most likely next week. Anyway felt Id share my observation is all.

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

I personally had serious difficulties with Drg, but it was mostly because of my race and not the job. I finally learned to do mage classes and excelled quite well with hume. Hume can cut Drg but they can't realy outclass anyone but tarus no matter what the DD class is.

My biggest dislike of Drg realy wasn't the BS and less then perfect attacks, it was the lack of variety in his techniques. Crappy pulling options, semi worthless final ability, and overall lack of activity wile playing as a whole. I personally think Humes make better Drk then Drg, because they can improve on spells where they lack in physical power.

I can see that our ranter here is an elvaan, and obviously has some serious following to be wearing Wyrm armor. It's easy to say Drg is just fine when it's working for you, but popularity and the lack of can be more gimping then actual power. In the end it doesn't matter whos stronger, the person ppl think is stronger will be accepted and the person who is missunderstood will be neglected.

On a side note, I saw a Sam/Rng with mega ranged equiptment put out sidewinders just as good as a ranger will beating up on the enemy with his physical attacks as well. And putting up big numbers on WS also boosts the power of the MB at the end, which is indirectly responsible for doing more damage, aside from being able to offer other strategic efforts in the way of debuffing. Parsers are very narrowsighted.

But I'm not up to date, as I quit early summer for GW, I just couldn't come to terms with having to surround lame monsters for hrs as the primary activity second to waiting for such lame combat. I needed something a little more active.

[Lmnop]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

you put too much weight on race.

If hume makes an excellent warrior or an excellent monk, then it makes an excellent drg.

[tdh]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Im glad its still up because I just read this WHOLE THING...>.>

Anyway there were things I wanted to comment on but I forgot what they were now....

Oh wait I remember...it was in reguards to the amount a DRK and DRG hit. Im not a high level DRG or anything, only 24 now. But I have partied with two DRK's thus far. One I parsed damage and saw that I hit about 5-10 times more over the course of around 4 battles. So given the fact that they have the same acc, that idea that DRG have less delay means this swing more and if its set up that 80% of the time you hit then DRG would hit more due to this lower delay. This can be seen easily with numbers...if both jobs hit 80% of the time and the DRG got to attack 100 times then the DRK would most likely be able to attack about 83 times. I am not using exact delays but I am estimating the DRK would have about a 1 secound longer delay time(Im using scythes, this can change with GS but I don't know the delay times on these so I cant say for sure). With the idea that both his 80% of the time then the DRG would end up with 80 hits and the DRK would end with 64 hits. The problem with this idea is that over time the amount of hits would become apparent. Lets say now the DRG hit 1000 times. Given the same data the final counts would be 800 and 640. This of course is a world that is black and white, with no other variables to affect anything such as slow, haste, paralyze, double attack, ect. This is also assuming the two have the same acc in the final counts. The point I was trying to make is DRKs *do* hit less then DRGs mathamatically, and that as time progresses this fact could make a distinct differance. But a battle that lasts over 1640 from the DRG and DRK hits to prove this would be hard to imagine...since if the DRK gets the final attack he can still get the first in the next fight, this little factor puts the flaw into the mathematical part because it is possible for the DRG to lose 2 hits every fight if they attack slower and the final hit form the DRK was under a single second for the DRG to attack again. Of course this error magin would reduce as the number of total attacks increaded. In the course of 10 DRG attacks where the DRK gets 8, if the DRG misses out on 2 then both DRK and DRG are at 8 attacks...whereas if their were 100 attacks on a single monster the differance would be 98 vs 83 and the idea of 98 attacks at 80% acc would be 78 hits as opposed to 80. Anyway I think I proved my point on how DRG do actually hit more in terms of amount of times, but not in accuracy.

Oh as for a minor amount of acc added to DRGs. It was in my experiance with the last DRK that I partied with that I hit enough to ws 2 times for each time she could once. This is not always, but there were many cases where I would be at 100% and she would be at 40-60% and by the time she had 100% I could have WS'ed and had been to 100%+ myself or at least to 80-90%. The only differance was I had 3 more acc because of battle gloves. Also I doubt that +3 acc could make the differance of about 30% acc, even in the early 20's. I say that because if I could get about 200% tp in the time she got 100% then it means I hit about 20 times every 10 time she hits. If I assumed i hit at 80% then it means I hit 20 times for every 25 swings. With that said it means the DRK probally attacked about 20 times for every 25 of mine. if she got about 100% tp vs my 200% and she attacked 20 times it means she would have had to have hit about 50% of the time. Also the lower my acc is the lower hers is too. If i lowerd my acc to hitting about 50% of the time it means she hit about 33%. This is of course still assming the DRK has 1 secound longer for delay time and we begin our attacks at the same time. There is play on all these but that is what the real world is. The point is this is data showing that either a simple 3 acc can make a big differance, or somehow DRG does hit more. Well actually there are alot of toehr things that could have affected it and that is why I am not going to use this as my final say. But this is what I have seen thus far. I will be able to better examine this once my DRK friend catchs up so we can static. That should be able to show more accurate data since I will know for sure both our weapons will be capped, will be able to take down delay times, AND we will be the same race. With the same gear at the time of the parsing(I will work with my gear to amke it be her exact gear). Also we will have the same subjobs. But that will be in a later post, most likely next week. Anyway felt Id share my observation is all.

This is something I think a lot of people over look. The delay on a Scythe is considerably higher than that of a Polearm. I've only ever had two of my parties parsed, and both were with a DRG under Lv.50 so no Double Attack.

But let's look at weapons:

Mythril Polearm D: 69 Delay: 492
Barbarian Scythe D:76 Delay: 528
Fausser D: 61 Delay: 480

That Polearm is going to attack a lot sooner than that Scythe. At that level, I was all about Scythe. So I was swinging that big long delayed weapon, mainly due to the Atk+25 tagged on to the end.

Our accuracy was nearly identical, I hit harder, they hit more often. Unfortunately we had a really mean Gobby that dropped 3 Gobby bombs on us. I stopped one of them, lag kept me from Weapon Bashing the second one, and Stun wasn't ready for the 3rd, so the poor Wyvern was dead. This was out 3 or 4th Gobby.

At the end of the party, my weapon skill damage, and Souleater Chain #5 are what put me ahead of the DRG. If they had their Wyvern the whole time, and no weapon skills the DRG would have out done me by probably 2-3k in total damage. But doubling up their WS damage and Souleater put me over the top.

As a DRK I know at Lv.50 I can out hit a DRG and a MNK (Counting both punches), but at the end of the day I know they're going to out do me in the final damage column. I'm interested in seeing logs for a DRK with a Great Sword though. With lower damage, and lower delay than the Polearm. I'd like to see the DPS against a DRG with that one.

In my most of my DRK parties, I've been killing Gobbys. And meanwhile Gobby Suicide can help give out a lot of EXP, it can also wipe out a lot of Wyverns. Because of that I didn't get to party with many of them.

Personally I like the DRG job. I like partying with them, and I like playing the job. As I read this post, I plan to go home and level DRG tonight if I can. DRG's a lot of fun in Qufim!

[Keji]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Pfft.. "intelligent discussion" You only wish to hear what you want to, and preach about how you're so good compared to everyone else you've ever partied with. Not to mention you resort to flaming or replying in an angry manner to anyone with an other opinion. Sounds to me like you're what you hate .. those "zomg DRK r l337" but you're just saying "zomg DRG r l337 listen to me u mofoz".


Edit: Oh I only read the first page.. didn't notice the rest and this is targeted at the creater of this thread.

[Jokerboy1]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

idk why every one is flammin this.. i mean really hes just putting his points out there.. yea some may think hes bragging about himself.. or what ever.. but who cares?

lets just all be friends =(

[Sevv]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

OK only a 57 dragoon atm. But I have noticed one thing dragoons on ifrit are a little more accpeted into parties. Dragoons can out damage darks, sam, monks. I know this because I have done it. But to outdamage darks must equip more att+ gear. Monks are a bit easier but they also have great ws. This is with out my wvyern. Then I also checked with my War friend we had a comp of damage. In regular melee I outdamaged him very easly with all dif weps he tried, but when it came to sc/ws he did far more dam bout 100+ with rampage mor than my penta thrust. So in the end I won out because of the wyvern by not to much dam over the corse of a long pt.

I also equiped alot of acc+ gear so I hit more often i sacrifced some dam for hitting alot more so i turned out doing more damage in the end.

I balance my att+ and acc+ gear have doubles for slots one with att+ one with acc+ to change if I need to for a party to contribute more. I have partied with other dragoons who dont know the job.

Dragoon can be great in parties, the class itself is usefull I only ask not to ignore a class and push it aside when there are great players of the class we also have bad players just like anyclass. I am not calling my self a great player im a lil above avg in terms of overall knoweldge and every lil party/exp trick. But I do know almost everything about my job at my level.

So yes this post is just one person sick of our main job getting called shit. But when its only some players that are. Just like me playing with a horrible dark and telling everyone the suck, thats all most of us ask leave the job outa it and dont party with that player again if they where bad.

[Kailea]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Yeah SevIfrit I am sick of it too, so is my LS leader...she kicked someone because they said that I sucked and would never get a PT because I was a DRG -.-

I have done many thing to prove many diffrrent BS states to shame about DRG to myself

I have subbed WAR THF DRK WHM RDM and my damage output (without useing skills) is basicly the same, and I dont have a lick of ACC+ gear neather, I hate taht peopel think I have to have 30+ ACC to hit, when I have proven time and time agian that I dont, the gear I have on focuses on STR DEX and VIT adding 11STR 8DEX and 6VIT at level 58. Also abilities are not everything to a subjob, spells help ahell of alot too.

after the update, the only things that will change with DRG are this.......

the 2-hour can now save a PT in a pinch
Wyvern can now be used alot more

these two alone, will make me feel alot better when that "OMG we are going to die" time comes around, I can acualy help ^.^

[capitalistnihilist]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

ROFL, this guy has some issues. He claims its so laughable for a monk to outdamage him and his wyvern eh? Well, I'm only a LVL 58 monk but according to my parsers I've only had one dragoon outdamage me in a EXP pt even including his wyvern damage. That was against crabs in boyaha tree with no debuffer. That pt sucked anyway. Every other PT i'm in I outdamage all other melee by a significant margin and usually outdamage the BLM as well (unless we have a nuke happy BLM that likes to rip hate from the tank and get us all in trouble.)

I have top notch gear and eat sushi which may have something to do with this... (Cross counters, SH, tiphia sting, 2x sniper's rings, kung fu shoes etc.)

[fuz]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

It's hard to out-damage a drk? Someone get this boy a parser!

http://www.frontiernet.net/~Spyle/FFXI/ffxi.html

I'm a drk btw, and I've only consistenly beat two jobs; sam in the 1-59 range, and thfs post 60.

[Brayden]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

I love how these threads all become 'stroke my e-p*nis' threads. "No one can out damage me!"