~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

[GSDragoon]

Eh, how are the DRG AF quests that hard? We get most of our coffer's in EXP parties too.

[Kainryu]

Khaeos can you post a guide as to how you play your Dragoon? Because you mention people don't know how to play them but how do you play them?

[Sorin]

Personally, playing as a SAM to 40, NIN to 27 (Currently, on a diffrent character) and WAR to 30, and WAR to 43, (Respectively.)


My general experience with a DRG is pretty well, since I leveled my SAM commonly with a DRG pal. I know that the DRG 'Fun daze liek OMG!' Are when they get to Polearm Skill 150, when Pentathrust becomes the spamming WS (Much like Tachi:Enpi) for most DRGs. All I have to say is: DRG is effective for some situations. Much like someone mentioned above, DRG is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a bad DD, but when compared to some situations, DRK outshines a DRG. I mean, Piercing-type weapons (Most often times Bow, Lance, ETC.) Will do more damage than a Scythe on some opponents, like Flys. I deleted my logs, (Actually chopped them up for firewood. MWUAHAAH!) But as soon as I get some from EXP parties, I'll post them.

I leave you with this. It could be worse my Whole fellowship of DRGs. You could have a gimped Trait... *coughstealthcough* or have an aspect of your job be decreased... *Coughblinkupdatecough* Or have your job do somthing it was not originally be intended to do *coughtankcough*...It could always be worse.

[Kibagami]

Maybe not for NA but i'm pretty sure that when the game was realeased in JP the cap was 60...when i started playing in feb of the current year the cap had recently been raised to 70. Lvl 3 SC is where DRK start to really really shine, cause b4 that most of them WS were crap....ok let's say DECENT not crap. At this moment DRG gets the shaft cause DRG gets placed in the same spot for SC than RNGs and WARs...and to make it worse Mistral Axe (a 1 handed axe WS) actually does more DMG than you Polearm WS....

At this lvl SAM suffer too since they cannot do light renkies, only Darkness and I think (i'm not sure) they can only do it with NIN and PLD meaning you can' t use gekko to SC with a THF or DRK/THF...they suffer till 71 when Kayshia saves their lives and ultimately makes them favored over DRG sinche Kayshia is actually decent...and cause they can pull 2 light renkeis per fight

So b4 you had to compete againsts WARs and RNGs...and now against WAR,RNG and SAM. You may argue that you DoT ys better than WAR or SAM but when it boils down to SC making WAR and SAM have and edge over you... WAR is a tank at times and therefore he does not have to compete with Melees for DD spot...SAM can do 2 lvl 3 SC per fight...which result in 2 MB...making fights really short and chains bigger and faster, RNG...well RNG is the king of dmg (and you can't argue they suck against bones cause DRG does too).

The real problem is that this situation is 65 post.... AFTER 65 but ppl think that this applies to ALL lvls. So what happens is that even in the god dam dunes ppl bash DRGs (specially those retards that rush to 60 and are rank 6 and think they are l33t and that they know everything and cause someone told them that WT sucks they concluded that DRG is total crap and ppl should not bother with it >< >< >< >< >< >< >< ><).

Btw... managing Spirit Link will make your wyvern to last 2 hours don't forget to log out with you wyvern out so you can have an instant replacement for the next day...and really the true fix for the DRG is making Wheeling Trhust a GOOD WS...if it became accurate and damaging enough to the point where DRK does not overshadow it so blutuntly then ppl will foget this dark era of DRG.

[Rogan]

I see where he's coming from though, the reason we have to inform people of what kind of damage we can do is because most people fail to see it. Everyone has this stereotypical idea that we suck...it's not true. I even met one of my friends in real life who I just found out played it and he asked what job I was I said drg he said drg kinda sucks its fun but you're so useless to a pt...it's not true...so I'm done but that's what the posters trying to say

[Tokitoki]

When the game was first released it started at a cap of 50, thats why the genkais were added. One was palced after each of the raises in caps.

[Ashtyr]

Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Originally posted by Khaeos
SAM, please...don't make me laugh any more then I already am. I get enough TP each battle to ws twice, every single battle.

If you were subbing SAM, I MAY have believed you. But you're DRG/WAR. Your entire post reeks of elitism and unnecessary condescension and it stifles te entire point of the topic. If you can do 2 WS's per battle, SAMs can do 3 WS's. Without Meditate, it's impossible for you to keep up in terms of TP.

Your rant is nothing but a biased antithesis of your proclaimed 'intelligent' post. DRGs aren't the end all of melee - and neither is SAM, DRK, WAR, etc. Quit feeling the need to defend your job just because you feel insecure about what every other job/person says about it. If everyone were like you the Samurai board would be a mess right now.

Keep in mind, I have nothing against DRGs. I've played DRG to level 20 and I like it so far, and my friend's DRG main. I do, however, have a problem with people exaggerating something and posting it as 'intelligent' conversation. "DRGs are better than everything else, nyah!" or "SAMs don't have enough abilities, SE sucks! " or "WARs don't get enough PT invites!" are nothing more than whining.

[Kalvin Klien]

Re: Re: ~Time for an intelligent discussion - Cephius, look here~

Originally posted by Ashtyr
If you were subbing SAM, I MAY have believed you. But you're DRG/WAR. Your entire post reeks of elitism and unnecessary condescension and it stifles te entire point of the topic. If you can do 2 WS's per battle, SAMs can do 3 WS's. Without Meditate, it's impossible for you to keep up in terms of TP.

DRGs used to have a job trait that allowed them to gain instant TP back after a WS, it happened quite often too, but since Samurai's Meditate is more reliable they are the SC leaders.

But after they took DRGs job trait out, if you did'nt have top notch gear or knew how to play the job correctly you'd just look like a wannabie-Dark knight that cant deal as much damage.:sweat:

[C8-Sniper]

Originally posted by CarbonFibre
Everyone knows that since DRK hits for more damage each swing

Dark Knight misses way too often in higher levels! Dragoon Knight has there wyvrn to back there damage up as well so right there makes it a double team. I personally like there damage out put and how there wyvrn can "WS" too.

and casts spells, it's already a more powerful job than DRG.

That does'nt prove anything, so what a dragoon could just sub BLM, WHOOPY! Point of the matter is Dragoons are much easier to SC with, they can deal just as much damage even at higher levels, and the only thing Dark knight has over them is there able to Dhance. So if your saying Dark knight is the RDM of draggon I'd have to tell you "Dragoon rocks." period.

I dont look at a job and say "everyone hates it so I do too." You can random super jump for 30+ TP points, and with appropriate gear you'll hit for a lot, and you've got a wyvrn to double the damage.

So yes damage wise DRG > DRK. After level 69 Dark kngiths gain the advantage with WSs.

DRKs have Souleater, Last resort, Bezerk, and Bloodweapon........ but that sure does'nt help any if they cant land a single hit huh? I'd rather have a DRG that hits 3 times for 100 then a DRK that hits once in that time span for 130-150. Would'nt you too?

[Mithrael]

C8-Sniper,

Again, I have no hate on the DRG job...

However... DRK misses too much at higher levels either comes from inexperiece or perhaps bad experience with some severely gimped DRKs. Assuming you have two basically identically equipped people at lv.70, one DRG, one DRK. The DRG would obviously need a Scorpion Harness vs. the DRK's Haub*. DRG gets one Accuracy+ job trait, which gives roughly 10 accuracy, and the DRK has Acc+7 from thick armor. So... from this Accuracy+3 the DRG somehow derives greatly better accuracy?

The fact of the matter is that people perceive that DRK has lower accuracy because it takes them longer to gain TP. TP gain is slower because of lack of instant TP gain capability (like jump or meditate), lack of innate haste (mnk,nin), and lack of innate multi-attacks. Since DRK is generally asked to sub THF for even stronger weapon skills, it takes about 60-70 seconds to gain 100% tp. In reality, the past 3 EXP parties I've been in I had 88-92% accuracy. I can post the parses if you like. To achieve accuracy that high, you have to eat Sushi instead of attack up food, however, I haven't noticed a decrease to the damage of my weapon skills, but my innate attack is 430-ish without food or buffs anyway. Spinning slash still lands for 700+ with sneak attack. So far, I haven't missed the attack food that much.

It still remains true that up until lv.65/66 DRGs with nearly equivalent equipment to DRKs will outdamage DRKs. All of the reasons stated already supprt that. Unfortunately, at lv.66 the difference in weapon skill damage is huge. At lv.69 the difference in available gear is huge. Bomb Core + Thick Set + Haub adds a ton of attack that DRG just can't get a hold of. Add that to the innate attack up traits of DRK, and DRK can really get away with not eating attack up food. I still hold to my belief that DRGs largest obstacle at the moment is reasonable attack oriented gear vs. utility of alternate subs. If either of the two were greatly improved it would be a moot converstation.

[Gekoman]

Well heres my long and waffly post,

Personally I believe the versatility of DRG is pretty high due to mainly the wyvern, as S-E intended it to be (All that symbiotic stuff). But what was S-E actually planning to jobs PT role to be?

Every job fits into a catageory when they plan it, but, some jobs get changed for their role. E.g Ninja... hence S-E decreasing the effectiveness of that powder theyre oh so addicted to and love to sniff.

So it is up to the public, or players of FFXI if you will, to decide roles and how to play them. When DRG could Penta Spam like crazy due to excessive TP gain, this was the main thing that stood out for the actual job to the public. Anyone who looked at a DRG spamming away the WS would be amazed at the speed of it.

Once S-E took away the trait that the DRG was famously chosen for, fewer players saw reason to invite DRG. But others still knew that a DRG could be useful in the party, but the majority didnt.

The question is how do you change the community to think that DRG is better then it is?

Many will not want to even bother PTing with one due to word from others saying they suck so they believe them.

If S-E designed DRG to be mainly a DD then I would suggest adding something good back to our traits. Why not add more ACC traits? We have one, why not another? If you make us similar to a rangers acc but in physical context, this would definatly make us look better.

After doing that DRG could add other items instead of sniper rings (Less people to buy them, makes other DD happy :p) and perhaps focus on STR more.

Still perhaps this is all the curse of having sexy purple armor... I think everyones jealous!

I just hope in time we will have some sort of update that people will notice or the community thinks better then what they do of DRG now. And no im not saying everyone doesnt like DRG, but the majority does and will continue to inform others or strengthen their views about them.

After all this waffling ive forgotten what I am doing so ill just end by saying:

G00|\|3|2Z |20><0|2 J00|2 |30><0|2Z

Ta ta

P.S I didnt mean to help enhance the stereotypical statement how DRGs are hax0r0r0s and use Wall Hacks to get Headshots by using "1337" speak

[Balodoth]

Perceived Gimpness

I agree Gekoman. The main issue here is having a special role. In fact, that's one of the great things about subjobs, they allow players to define their role. Why do you thing /WAR is the standard sub for PLD? Why is /NIN a standard for RNG or THF? Why is /WHM common among BLM and vice versa? Because these are the subs that compliment the job and its role. People often /WHM the first ten or so levels becuase a mere 8 MP means 22-30 HP, but somehow that doesn't carry into the first party? We're looking at around 5 extra points among the stats, one ability, maybe even two traits. And that is somehow necessary? We can do math to show THF/RDM is more effective in Valkurm than THF/WAR. Granted, as the subjob level increases, so do the bonus to stats, abilities and traits, and thereby a sub is more beneficial, but everyone is so set in their thinking, a non-standard sub can cost you an invite.

If we expand on this, we see that main jobs too must have a role or they will suffer. The problem isn't DRG's damage. Damage is the argument of ignorance, a quick assertion to avoid a logical discussion. The issue is two-fold. One, DRG isn't seen as anything special. They are replaceable. I've seen evidence that DRK/WAR is more effective than DRK/THF in DoT, but people want /THF for a single bigger hit, a better WS bonus, and a chance to burst. Why invite a DRG when there's a DRK LFP who has stun and absorb spells? The second issue is equipment. Under the idea that DRG can't jump with heavy equipment, they don't get to equip it and benefit from the bonuses. Now, the second issue is a bit bigger than this though. What the lack of equipment means is we can't do more damage ourselves. The wyvern does it for us, yes, but people don't like to add, especially when it isn't conveniently grouped for them like with DRK. Also, as Mithrael pointed out, DRG gets a ACC bonus, but other jobs get to equip more ACC, so what does the bonus do for us? Not much in the long run.

So, what does all this mean? DRG is in need of definition. Does this require more damage? Possibly. What it definitely requires though, is a role not easily filled by others. DRG suffers from the fact it is deversified, flexible, not focused. We want to keep the flexibility while enhancing the focus, get more out of our wyvern, provide more assistance to our parties, and be noticed and liked for our job choice.

[Kibagami]

He well i think i kinda found my role while playing DRG. You know how ppl don't like the whole SATA on the DRG and then just jump the hate off? The problem was that the BLM would get all the hate on himself right? Well now that SMN can MB ived notice parties that invite me to do this.

Parties have been almost the same all this time: PLD,THF,DRG, SMN,RDM,WHM...pretty much your standard party. We do SATA as usual with me as first voke and then mid fight we THF does SATA over me i jump hate off and then SMN uses avatar to MB...now with Avatars the moment the smn realeases it the hate is gone. What does this mean? It means it's like nothing happened in the hate department. PLD has the same hate as the moment b4 the second SATA. The hate that was placed over me is gone...the hate gathered from the avatar is gone.

I know you are gonna start pulling out timers and say: Hihg jump has a 3 minute timer and super jump a 5 minute timer. SATA has a 1 minute timer you are wasting it alll blah blah blah...
The key here is the PLD Tank. After the initial SATA they can hold hate like champs leaving room for THF to SATA over me at will over and over and over again (sometime we'd link some stuff and he got to do 3 SATA over me in that fight), if the hate spike got tooo large i would just jump it off. We both had good gear so usually we could do SC at the beggning of fight and if fight was too long again to end it. The THF was very pleased to be able to SATA over me all the time...which got me an invite fore the next day

Imo DRG was made to keep a low profile by doing DoT more than doing big bursts of damage. If my WS damage was over the top i would not be able to whore myself to the THF like that. At least for my lvl range this is working out nicely...i'm waiting on skewer to try it out with a THF and see how that goes. Hopefully it won't change too much in the days to come.

[Gekoman]

I agree that thief and dragoon go well together in SATA, as ive always done that in PTs.

But I also remember that when I think i did a Distortion skillchain on crabs in kuftal the BLM could burst by using an ancient magic (if timed correctly) "Freeze" I believe it was...

Usually they would be out of their minds doing this... but after he did that I just Super Jumped, paladin provoked and there was no more hate on the BLM... works wonders I tell yer!

[Kafeen]

Originally posted by Kibagami
He well i think i kinda found my role while playing DRG. You know how ppl don't like the whole SATA on the DRG and then just jump the hate off? The problem was that the BLM would get all the hate on himself right?

If you did have that then is a good job you were there to keep the hate off the BLM. You're tank must suck because the mob would have gone back after the person with the most Enmity, hopefully the tank.

Normally when I'm a trick buddy its SATA on me, I high jump. If the tank has enough hate the mob will go back to him, if not it stays on me until the tank provokes it. Rather than super jump straight away since the tank is obviously a little low on hate I'll wait as long as I can. If I'm about to die, then I'll super jump. Provoke should be near ready by this point anyway. 9 times out of 10 I loose enough hate off high jump anyway and don't miss time in the battle as you do with super jump.