*sigh*

[JexIntrepid]

absolutely agree with above poster.

If Dragoons were meant to just be another dmg dealer for you, then u should go ahead and save yourself the trouble and go lvl Drk. You'll even get a few good magic spells on top of that.

Wyverns. The thing i fear is problematic with alot of Drgs is that they've immediately put into their mind that they need to be Drg/war to do awesome dmg which should be close or equal to a Drk. Sure, we COULD but you'll have to invest a heckload in equipment, and spend plenty on food to buff your atk. Then when u pull off Skewer, you'll do great dmg. Still nothing in this game will compare to a Drk/thf. except Rngs, but theirs come at a high price.

Wyverns makes us diff. than Drks, because we have many diff. options with it. Different subs give the wyvern different abilities. And now that S-E has made us use spirit link, though it removes some of your HP, you can gain back that HP with the proper wyvern, without causing your whm mp problems.

If dragoons spent more time trying to experiment and understand now how their wyvern can help the party situation, they would fit their own role, instead of being in the mix of drk, rng, mnk, sam. They would almost be like how thf have their own role in a party.

With the AF helm, i hear quite a few good comments on the Drg/rdm combo.

Without fearing hate, Drg/Drks can use souleater, and cast small spells to make wyverns do cure breath to heal their lost 5% HP back.

Drg/whm can do cure status breath at low costing spells, and pull off decent backup heals so that rdm can spend full time refreshing and nuking.

Drg/thf can boost his 1 hit ws, and at the same time manage hate.

Drg/war is probably still one of your best dmg dealing classes, but don't expect to deal as much as Drk/thf, even with uber equipment. You'll sure get close though wit double attack.

Drg/sam can use meditate to create renkei after a pentathrust, by using wheeling thrust after meditate.

I just hope ppl out there be more open-minded, both pt leaders and dragoons alike. Then we'll see if dragoons were just meant to play a normal dmg dealing role, rather than their own style. (wyvern,etc)

[raidenn]

Well there maybe more stuff to come in soon. Remember, all jobs have traits and abilties and spells all the way to the 70s. DRGS end at 50s.. How many of you wouldve guessed a PLD would have Raise at level 70? Is that really necessary?

Right now we're not really that good since we suck at accuracy (accuracy bonus? Ha!), selection of weapons (1h sword?, no range weapons?), Weak against certain mobs like undead (yeah right, how many times do we go against dragon mobs?), abilties that dont work like their supposed to (jumping onto a creature usually gets their attention dont it?Why do we miss?) and not many exclusively worth weapon skills (we're stuck with Spear forever).


By the way:
Yesterday, i waited for hours as DRG to get a pt and when i got tired of waiting, switch to pld just to play around with a 2h sword and i get an invite in 3 minutes without seeking..

[Carbon]

You are correct in that S-E has been focusing on the wyvern as far as the changes to DRG recently.

However, it's not enough. The wyvern at this point is nowhere enough to make up for the deficiencies DRG suffers in other areas (namely, damage dealing ability).

It *is* possible to improve the wyvern enough that pet management, and not pure damage dealing ability becomes the DRG's role. But how long do we have to wait and suffer until that comes about?

To say that the improvements being given to the wyvern are slow in coming is an understatement.

[Lan'Urk]

I agree changes are being slow paced, but I think the reason for that is that, the issue is very complicated to deal with... SE is have a huge trouble to come out with an answer to make DRGs good on their own way... they clearly dont want DRG to be Damage dealers on the same manner as DRK or Rangers. But I am VERY confident that soon enough the Wyverns will add enough to dragoons that will make them equivalent to DRKs in their own way. and a point weezing brought up which is very interesting, and I believe the they will implement soon is more, and more powerful wyvern skills... and with "Adds wyvern's subjob"it gives away that they are working towards that. and another thing I agree, is what Jex is saying that DRGs were meant to experiment with SJs... **BUT** I dont think as of today thats isnt a possiblity... that is another thing they might be adding on the DRG "fix" which will make DRG+Wyvern exists without relying on the SJ especificaly, allowing the DRG to experiement. but that just speculations and probably quite ignorant to speculate. What I strongly believe they will do regardless is making wyverns a lot stronger, damage-wise and skill-wise.

~Lanurk

[Taodyn]

This would be more of a quick-fix than a full fix really, but it could still work.

SE could create job specific rings.

Imagine a ring (rare/ex that must be obtained through a level 30 quest in that specific job) that could balance many of the difficulties each job faces.

DRG could get an att and acc bonus
DRK could get an mp and def bonus
PLD could get an mp and def bonus
etc
etc
etc

They could even throw in some latent effects they seem so happy with.

It wouldn't make up for all the problems, but it could really help out. The rings should be somewhat difficult to obtain and should only be obtainable by someone with that main job and of a specific level (I'd suggest 30).

I would not suggest making this part of the AF, but that could be a possibility. Wouldn't it be great if in the next patch SE said "We're creating new rings for every job. A unique piece of equipment for each and every role."

This may seem like a bad idea, but it would at least address some of the problems without unbalancing the jobs (or unbalancing them more).

[Lan'Urk]

I dont think that would make any difference at all.... you can already do that now.... you just buy an especific item that your character need ( acc=sniper's rings def=Phalanx mp=Astral etc).

DRK and PLDs already have the most decent equipment available to them, the problem with DRG itemization is that the few items they have availalbe to them usually boost random stuff that people normaly dont use (even though if you follow Jex's train of thought some of those stats would perhaps come more handy).

but to better this situation would be better if SE added a scale mail armor for DRG with +Attk for example to be equivalent to DRKs and SAMs armors. And as far as fairness towards DRGs I think this area is where they are being screwed indeed. They should definatly add more options as far as equipment for DRGs...

[Weezingpipes]

Honestly I never played the job for the wyvern. If I wanted to be a pet class, I'd be a BST, or to a lesser extent a Summoner (even though in reality SMN rarely actually have their summons out for more than a couple seconds at a time for a buff, otherwise they are just cure bots). When I played EQ the class I played (enchanter) had pets that were basically like wyvern pets - you couldn't control them at all, they just followed you around. The only difference between the 2 is in EQ you had to be hit first for the pet to defend you and attack the monster, here you just have to turn on auto attack and the little mongrel will hit what you are hitting. Considering it adds REALLY low damage, no control, and no real utility, I have a hard time taking this thing seriously as a key part of my job, more so in this nice to have category. What I did play the job for was jumps - the assumption I would be a substantial enough damage dealer that I would need the jumps to avoid dying, or I could plan out burst damage around Jump cycles in order to maximize output. Given the function of Jumps, that seems rather logical, no? If you balance a job around a seperate entity, not the character itself, then you have to make that seperate entity proportionally more powerful than the job itself - for example, BST. A BST without a pet is nothing more than a gimped warrior without all the useful tricks, but with a pet they are a beating. They don't get really any abilities or traits which do not revolve around the pet - EVERYTHING revolves around their pets.

Also consider so much of the game utterly destroys wyverns for many levels, and still does. I got to 71 without Spirit Link. Needless to say after level 30, quite often I didn't have my wyvern simply because it wouldn't live long enough to have any merit at all vs most things I fought (goblins, flies, etc). While I do see the use in Spirit Link, its a little too late, and probably won't have a huge impact in how a DRG uses their wyvern. There are simply some things you fight that Spirit Link isn't really enough - take any fly type monster for example. Fighting Darters in Boyahda one after another, even if I had Spirit Link, I think it would be pretty unlikely it would live longer than 30 minutes at best when they fire off 2-4 Cursed Spheres per fight. Without Spirit Link, wyvern was dead in 2 fights 100% of the time, sometimes one if the fly got sphere happy.

I think a more accurate description is they don't seem to know what they want the job to do. They got the wyvern which for a long time was mildly useful at best, only really had 2 roles depending on sub job, weak damage dealer or weak healer. Couple that with the job itself having best hate mitigation in the game (there must be SOME reason for this) - seriously, no other job can remove hate from themselves as well as a DRG, there has to be a reason for that. We don't have near the utility of a DRK, don't have the ability to tank (the opposite really), don't have the damage output of MNK or RNG, so...what do we do? I suppose if sub job abilities were more specialized per sub job rather than "if its any melee, offensive breath, if its any caster, heal breath at different intervals depending on what caster sub it is". What if DRK sub made a stun breath, RDM sub did different enfeebling breaths, WHM sub had higher group heals and could cure any status effect, BLM sub had significantly higher offensive breath damage, THF sub made the wyvern sneak attack (with proper positioning), etc. Just random ideas. In that situation, sub job would really matter. Presently, its 2 choices, heal or non heal.

If the focus is truly on the wyvern being a DRG's primary source of power and utility...then it better well be. I think most people have no interest in being a DRK clone. Personally I'd rather see a focus on DRG dealing high enough damage that hate mitigation tools required planning. If we don't have diversity in utility, then we need specialization. We have neither at the moment.

Also to Taodyn, itemization is a terrible way to "fix" a job. Gungnir is a good example of this. While its a great weapon that I think all DRG agree they would love to have, its hard to attain, and doesn't solve already existing problems the job has as a damage dealer. But regardless its generally bad practice in these games to fix based on itemization, because the people without said items are still broken. Balance needs to be fixed in the jobs themselves and available to all players of those jobs.

[SelfdestButton]

True. I don't think enough people apreciate the complexities of job balancing and what-not, especially on such a large scale where pts have to have a good pool of jobs to draw from to remain productive. But the dragoon has some great aesthetic value appended to it because of A.) it's AF, and B.) it's history (Kain, FFT Lancer, Kimahri, god knows how many other people). Does that mean the job has to be gimped to prevent too many people from choosing it? Cause I mean really, the job has some real problems later on, but that still doesn't stop people from playing it. Just a thought.

One more thing. Balancing jobs by what kind of gear they could possibly get is one of the worst ways to do it. Ever play Diablo II? A game totally devoid of balance for that very reason. Characters stopped being their job and more the stuff that they were wearing. the gear you're wearing should be play a significant role in your effectiveness, and it should be necessary to obtain it, but it should add to your efficiency, not make you efficient.

One more thing. Squeenix let us all down when they made FFX-2. If you liked that game you're evil and I hate you. But that's another story.

*edit: I seem to say "one more thing" alot. Shame.

[Macht]

I have to agree with what Lan'Urk had said before. From playing DRG (only up to lv. 15 though) I subbed every other job with them to see what would happen. With every sub the wyvern did seem to gain some bonus from it (Took me a while to test it this).

If you actually purposely pitch your dragon against the enemy and don't fight it, leave it to your Dragon with each sub. You'll notice the PLD sub seems to give the dragon a better defense, I'm lead to believe the Dragon it self to a smaller effect gains some of the subs traits but it not the abilities. This seemed to be true also with the weapon your wield, the weapons stats seemed to effect the dragon but armor if it isn't the AF seems to have no effect.

If that is the case then quite possibly the +VIT on the spears isn't intended for the Dragoon but more for the Dragon so that it has a better survivability. This also leads to more evidence that the Dragoon was not fully intended to be the main damage alone, but is suppose to have their wyvern with them to match other jobs.

As far as I can see S-E sure as hell seems to know what they want DRGs to be. Just that the players playing DRG have a totally different view.

[Weezingpipes]

Hold on, you want people to come here with hard numbers saying why DRG sucks at the high end when your basis for experimentation is level 15? To say a wyvern has better defense, even gets traits from a job (in your example, PLD), when PLD doesn't even get 1 def boost until level 10? I'd say that would be hard to tell at 15/7. What is your basis for wyvern damage being affected by the weapon you wield? 71 levels later, whether I use sword, staff or lance, the wyvern hits at the same rate, hits for the same range in damage. The only thing thus far that *has* affected the wyverns performance even slightly is AF armor and levels, and even level wise, the wyvern has always hit for basically the same.

What is your basis for thinking S-E knows what they want DRG to be? Some "experimentation" during levels which EVERY SINGLE JOB is basically the same? Pardon if I am having a hard time respecting someone who wants hard numbers shoved in his face and gives vague and unsupported opinions. Do you have any facts to support your claims? Logs, parses? Or is it just "well thats what I felt like coming up with".

Get another 55 levels on that DRG of yours, and then come back, and maybe you'd have a valid frame of reference.

[Andorhall]

Amen Weezing, couldn't of said it better myself. Seriously Macht making generic "feel good" posts about the class really isn't helping anyone unless you have a valid argument please stop posting misleading information.

[TiredTaru]

Uhm... it's true that a quick-fix solution might not solve anything in the long run, but I have no reason to believe that S/E is going to thoroughly think things out and give us something well-conceived. After all, isn't the dragoon JOB itself poorly-conceived?

The only difference was that with TP accumulation the way it was, people overlooked that dragoons offered nothing that other melee couldn't give (and give more of) to parties.

I have never played a MMOG with as little interaction between the developers and the playerbase as FFXI. There isn't a devleoper's forum, nobody from the developing team talks to players about what needs fixing and what doesn't. What happens when there's an update? We get a notice about a month in advance with vague descriptions.

And please don't make Square out to be this single entity that always turns out quality games. Squaresoft the COMPANY has turned out it's fair share of cr-p too, and let's not forget that FFXI is really their first foray into MMOGS.

(Squaresoft makes a few genre-defining games and suddenly they can do no wrong -ever-. Ignoring every Saga Frontier, Mystic Quest, the Movie, etc.)

[Rainsford]

If they added some kind of DRG ring, you could rest assure it would be +mnd +mp.

And after getting drg to 60, from what I've seen, it seems like SE was trying to make a melee job that could kind of do everything. Like with the wyvern it could heal, it woulden't be the BEST healer, but you could depend on it. And it could deal damage, not the BEST damage, but dependable (i still think jumps should stun or do something vaugly useful). Maybe even another att+ trait, or even an acc+. I don't think I've used Super Jump in quite awhile without a thf tricking off me, and even then, if they had gone off the paladin first, that woulden't even turn the monster around.

Well I guess I rambled a bit, but I think that dragoon should just be better in everything it does, better heal breaths, a little more damage. Make it a class that, if someone has 3-4 subs leveled, has such insane versitilty people actually WANT it in a party.