Not to say I told you so.....

[Macht]

Skippy? Was that addressed to me? If you're saying I don't play, actually I do. Have been since October 29. I've gotten all the adv. jobs and have 1 in the 50's. Just because I don't care to update my information here means nothing.

My explination of the jobs is what I see as their intents not how they are actually being played right now. How they are being played right now I see a lot things in it that'll most likely be fixed. Those fixes will most likely annoy people but it'll make the job work in it's design intentions.

The TP fix seemed very logical and well done. SAM's after all were loosing out in what their specialty is suppose to be, even though the change did make it were they don't get back as much TP as well it also put them back as the ones able to get the most TP that fastest.

Out of a recent growing lesson I learned that no matter what I it is just not logically possible to please everyone. With that new enlightment the best course of action to take is what you find will solve the bigger problems. S-E is obviously working on two problems there. Their first is what should be a SAM's specialty not being exclusive to them, the second is DRG's striving to make themselves strong not focusing their tactics around their dragon.

I know that as a fact watching 2 of my DRG friends play both in the 60's and more often they had choosen not to use their dragon then they have to use. I've yet to see a DRG thread were the damage is factored by a Damage Per Second including their dragon or any other sort compaired to how much they dish out in 1 hit themselves.

The DRGs seem like they have a hurt ego because they alone can't do the damage, but when considering a DRG you shouldn't be considering them alone. Them and their Dragon should be factored as 1 entity, not 2. The problem isn't the game it's the manner people are playing and expecting from it, and totally ignoring what is an obvious issue in the game.

[Weezingpipes]

the fact that 8/10 people on midgardsormr have statics

Not lately. Most of the statics have broken up by the time people got 70.

SO MANY PEOPLE PLAY DRG or DRK it's not even funny

I know 1 other NA drg 70+, and I think another just got 70. Search any time of the day, even counting JP there is like maybe 15 DRG 60-75. DRK...used to be a ton but seemed to have tapered off some. Considering DRG wise my competition is like...2 people maximum, and I don't usually compete with DRK since we don't fill in the same skillchain slot..

To be honest, you all might think that mages own melee in all circumstances, but not in an exp party. I had a party with the following:

A Vickie party? ;p Even I know an all mage group is gimped. I never said melee were unnecessary to exp groups - some are however better replaced by others.

Don't just assume that playing black mage was fine and dandy before this patch. Do you know how many times DRK's, MNK's, DRG's, etc., all told me that I was just a useless job?

Er...if you choose to play sucky because some moron DRG who thinks hitting Penta every time he gets 100% TP, or DRK doing the same with Guillotine is ownage, it doesn't really make the point valid. Since level 60 or so I've occasionally grouped with a BLM filling the 6th in their static rarely. The dude does own damage, doesn't get agro, has good mp management. Seldom had to heal other cuz the WHM is good. If I wanted a BLM to sit around never nuking doing shit damage, I'd invite a JP BLM...but there is a reason I don't invite JP BLM on Midgardsormr, because they all play the same : debuff, spot heal 2-3 times a fight, only nuke during burst, otherwise do nothing else. In case you haven't figured it out, contrary to what a melee who knows nothing about the game or a JP BLM might tell you, you ARE a damage dealer. Its not hard to even outclass melee spamming WS in a group as a BLM, just requires good equipment and good mp management to sustain it.

Just because I can farm Tiger fangs faster than you doesn't make it better by the way. I'd love to have higher desireability to BCNM's and other good money making things, but I don't. And I don't stand around saying I don't get groups for 6 hours and have shit gear. In fact, quite decent really considering what is attainable (which for a DRG, isn't much).

[Hattori Hanzo]

Originally posted by Macht


The DRGs seem like they have a hurt ego because they alone can't do the damage, but when considering a DRG you shouldn't be considering them alone. Them and their Dragon should be factored as 1 entity, not 2. The problem isn't the game it's the manner people are playing and expecting from it, and totally ignoring what is an obvious issue in the game.

Are you sure you play?

[JayblahX]

I was wondering when ne'er-do-wrong side of AtrApos (see; I read your BLM Forum posts) was going to show up and harp on my level. I clearly can't read at all, and don't have the knowledge and opinions of melees and mage alike that frequent these forums to back up my claims, no sir. I was also fortunate enough to get into a LS with many higher levels (many 50+) who I learn from everyday, pick up tidbits from, and gather information from. The Mages are always the one getting the invites to BCNM, or being asked to get parties, while the melees are waiting. The only non-Mage LSmates of mine that aren't waiting are Paladins, and usually Warriors.

So get over yourself AtrApos, and you better believe its a level 25/18 telling you to do so.

No one here will ever believe a Mage has it remotely as hard as a Melee. Period. You are a mage, and in this game, that makes you among the most desirable classes in the game for anything, so once again, please excuse us if we don't shed a tear for AtrApos because we can farm better than he can. You will always be useful past 75, and a melee is just a peon at that level.

Furthermore, you used a 3 BLM party and compared it to the XP-rate pf a balanced melee/mage party as your standing ground for a counter-point.

If you take the effort to put together BCNMs consistently (especially with friends and LSmates), you can and will make cash at a better rate than most melees who have to face the unpredictable nature of farming. Also, in my LS, the mages are always able to farm because whenever my melee-LSmates WANT to farm they ASK A MAGE (with healing sub) to join them to speed things up, so again: CUT THE SHIT. On top of that, you have BCNMs. Furthermore, its HIGHLY amusing that you chose to take into account YOUR costs in a BCNM, but then try to play-up Ninjas taking on NMs without taking into account the nightmarish expense they entail in playing their class.

Don't discredit what I say because of my level: That just makes you look pathetic. I'm very in-tune to MMORPGs in general (I've taken 3 to the end-game) and this game isn't a radical departure from any I've played so far.

Done.

P.S. :

HNMs - yeah. This is really just about who you know and how well you can kiss ass. I have friends in several different HNM ls's, but not one ever even told me about them. The only reason I ever found the one I'm currently *trying* to get into (read *trying* as I still don't know whether or not I'm in. Yeah, it's so easy for us blm's, right?)

Your facetiousness is highly self-serving, and laughable. Compared to a a non-Tank melee put in your shoes, you better damn well believe its easier for you to get in, all things equal. By that I mean equal ass-kissing, etc. You think Wizards and Clerics in Everquest had a hard time getting into an uber-guild? Excuse me while I laugh at you. This game is NO different when it comes to mages than that one.

[Macht]

Yes, I do play the game. I have about 70 days on the playtime for my character. What I stated with the DRG was exactly what came from the 2 DRGs I know. They were very caught up doing Penta Thrust then Jumps then skewer. After this patch actually stopped that since it doesn't work and now do use their Dragon more often.

Like I keep saying and repeat again about this update, I'm not considering how players are playing the jobs. I'm looking at it in a developer's aspect. Every job should have their uses when combinations are done, were is the SAM's use if it's possible for a job to gain TP same as a SAM in a manner not intended. Done like that to were SAM's isn't even needed as sub to do. To me that seems broken if each and every Job is suppose to specialize in something and they don't.

EDIT:

Sorry if you don't like my view, I'm being brutally blunt when I say I don't care if the game doesn't play the way you wanted. My view is more conserned about the game's design itself, not the players whinning. This game doesn't ruin either side, mages can't possibly hope to survive harder fights without melee's. Just the same the Mages can't hit their max potential damage without a good skillchain, and a good skillchain doesn't reach it's best without the right job combinations.

So in the end it seems to me that the melee and mage have a relationship that relies on the other, which seems like a brilliant view of making the two dependent on the other. When you get a good combination were that is kept in mind that mages can't succeed without melee and melee can't without mages then you can get some really good exp fast.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Originally posted by Macht
To me that seems broken if each and every Job is suppose to specialize in something and they don't.

I agree with you there.

[BartonOL]

News Flash Barton! When you tryed to get on yesterday you downloaded the latest patch. Obviously you are not aware of the little present for all the Melee classes in the game that SE gave us all Its called nerfing our TP, and it is singel handedly screwed the Dragoon Job into eternity. Basically now, first time you hit you get 12 TP back. every hit after that you get 1 TP back. SE screwed us over. Enjoy!

You just made my point!
The first hit does not return 12TP. it’s the first swing that does. If you miss with the first swing... and hit with the rest. Your not getting 12+3 you’re getting 4 TP back! You see my problem here?

And to think that I didn’t know about this change or notice the 1.5hr download is just a dumb comment.

[Ayako2]

Anyone want to PLevel my RDM?
I managed to convince myself "It's not that bad, I'll get used to it", then we made a mess in Aery during Fafnir. "Ok, just Penta these to death and we get back to it" Yeah, you can guess the results. I don't get it...I just don't get why they had to do it like this.
Just be happy we aren't Samurais.
RNG and DRK will remain the melee of choice for HNM. If the DRG in my LS was anyone but me, the DRG wouldn't be at most of the hunts (not to be egotistical, but it's true). RNG do decent damage, and have that bind ability which is great for Marathon fights like King Behemoth. DRK have stun, which is all they have. Warriors can tank if needed....MNK have kikoudan.....
Ninjas' are only really great vs HNM if they are alone, due to hate issues. I have seen Ninjas' solo Serket, but the same Ninja struggle when there were people with her.
*sigh
On the bright side, I guess I will be one blinged as all hell RDM if I sell my DRG stuff.

[tam]

wyvern

from whta i read from ur arguement macht is that you think drgs are ok and maybe even a bit better than some melees (sams) and what gives us the edge is the wyvern.

ok against ITs or VTs ur wyvern damage is around 15-20ish your hit is 80-100 and u dont miss often while sams use GK and do 50-70ish damage.

but to me... that damage doesnt really matter... i believe what makes parties go faster is the use of skillchains and magic bursts

when you get to around 65+ when you get the 225 wses that have 2 elements... people WILL and WANT to do level 3 renkeis those burst for around 1k+ damage

the people usually using skillchains are the melees (sam drg drk rng thf etc) this is where sam shines.

sams can create 2 lvl 3 renkeis with 2 different melees doing lots of damage. drks get awesome ws (cross reaper *i believe* and spin slash) they do great damage which causes the burst to be more damaging. rngs' 225 ws is not as flashy as their sidewinder ... so they usually use skillchain by themselves... which leaves drg.

wheeling thrust is a rather crappy ws... compared to the other 225 wses so basically you "lead" lvl 3 renkeis... but sam has the ability to do two lvl 3 renkeis instead of drg's one which makes them a lil more sought after than drgs. thfs arent TOOOO usefull but a lil more useful than drgs because of trick and sneak but then... by 60 drks will sub thf and do trick/sneak onto tanks for awesome damage.


the wyvern hits low breaths are most likely gimped because of AOEs. and misses and most ppl think they only get in the way. and hte jumps we have.. sure they shed hate .. they are quite nice wif a thf.. but other than that its a timed Double Attack for me to get more tp.

one thing drgs could somewhat look up to was penta'ing when ur around 100 tp and dont mess up other's renkei. and because of the tp return we could do it quite frequently ... but now... even that is lost. ... and post 60 there is nothing really to look forward to... our lvl 71 ws impulse drive is decent but .. once again the skillchain compatability is not good i think (im not htere yet im only 60) but i heard from other ppl from my ls ... (75 mnk 75 whm and 71 drg) its damage is not that good either


to me spirit link is pretty good, but in an exp party... ur putting damage onto urself and making the whm have to heal you... and that = more mp used... and may cause some problems with ghost/undead agros >.<!

basically most melee jobs are better than drg and people usually look for them first.

blms are good to have around but i know how atrapos feels tho.. blms sometimes dont get into exp parties because they arent exactly vital. but they are nice to have around because of magic bursts. what i see vital in a pt is a whm (duh), a brd or rdm, a blm or burst melee (drk/thf), a tank, and 1 more melee (hopefully one hwo can take a lil damage for the burst melee (drk/thf) can put hate on tank for easier hate control.

just my 2 cents. feel free to flame me or whatever
criticize my thoughts please ^^b im still learning and i can use all the advice i can get

[Weezingpipes]

but sam has the ability to do two lvl 3 renkeis instead of drg's one which makes them a lil more sought after than drgs

Actually SAM is at a disadvantage at 65 being only able to make Darkess, and the damage sucks compared to Cross Reaper, and Darkness is generally a weaker chain vs most monsters anyway.

[raidenn]

Dont sams get tp traits all the way to the 70s?

Hmmm we got a wyvern who isnt very independent (he sticks on your side all the time) and jumps which actually miss... (they're supposed to be able to stun or stop spellcasting on weak mobs)
The only good ability is Super Jump and thats fairly it..

Someone in Square hasnt been checking up on the balance issues..

[Weezingpipes]

(they're supposed to be able to stun or stop spellcasting on weak mobs)

Since when? ;p

[Macht]

I'm not saying SAMs are weaker then DRGs or vice versa with any jobs. What I am trying to point out is that the awsome TP gain is a sam exclusive, it wasn't suppose to be any job. Like I said again no DRG has provided efficient enough evidence of being weak. You just compaired your dragon's damage to your own and I bet that the delay between you two are totally different, with that being the case the comparison isn't adequate.

You mention the scyths physical attack WS and how they do with thf sub, but you didn't mention anything about the polearms physical attack WS and how they do with thf sub. The data isn't provided so the theory is flawed. Without cold hard accurate data to back it up providing a theory has no grounds. If you really want to prove to me DRGs weakness then provide more detail.

Do not provide in-adequate matches. Trying to match damage a drk/thf does to a drg/??? isn't good enough. If you're really seeking to find the DRG's max damage potential then by your own previous analogy the sub has be accounted for as well.

[Dano]

let's face it,

Drgs Got F'kd in the A

[Malefas]

You mention the scyths physical attack WS and how they do with thf sub, but you didn't mention anything about the polearms physical attack WS and how they do with thf sub. The data isn't provided so the theory is flawed. Without cold hard accurate data to back it up providing a theory has no grounds. If you really want to prove to me DRGs weakness then provide more detail.

Please tell me you are not trying to compare DRK/THF and TA + SA Cross Reaper damage to...

... SA +TA Wheeling Thrust damage...