DRG's feeling screwed? do something about it!

[fuz]

I belive that polearms, especially the drg only ones already have a good dmg/delay ratio compared to other 2 handers. It's just the poor WS and the dependence on them that is really messing things up. Melees pretty much live for their WS since that is what you invite them for so having sub-par skills directly affects them. Consequently having two "A" weapons is a large boon.

[Weezingpipes]

I like the delay on lances. Not too fast, not too slow, and since TP gain is related to delay of a weapon, its a decent return. The damage however is slightly lacking. While its better than GK, its a noticeable gap behind Scythes and Great Axes. Due to the way delay works in this game, its not quite as important as weapon damage is honestly, given miss rate isn't constant compared to say the way it was in EQ...delay actually mattered there. Delay only really matters in this game in regards to TP gain - if it paid to use faster weapons, Spears would be better to use than Lances, but they aren't. Also related to TP gain, given a high enough TP return, you get better value out of a high delay weapon from a multi hit WS. The high end selection of lances is awful to say the least too. I'm 71 still using a Grand Knight's Lance because I can't afford a 2 million gil Collosal Lance presently, and I'm not in a HNM ls to get a Gae Bolg, and at best I can hope for is the dirt cheap Ice lance at 74 (this doesn't help me now), and I'd still prefer one of the other 2 lances.

Fuz is right, being in the A range for 2 weapons is a HUGE benefit. If they continue to keep DRG only proficient in Polearms, they need to be better weapons honestly. Even if staves were A- they wouldn't be a viable weapon for 95% of monsters.

[Macman]

poor Firewing

why is it that dunes make my dragon die ever 2 hour and i die ever 30 min
is then any hope for jeuno and kazham?
and all the good party dont want me
but my sub is war
so i can pull/provoke
i can do any thing a warrior can do and more
why is it that no one want a drgoon only if the only one seeking?:confused: :mad: :dead:
and when i use tp my dragon did fire/ice and other
what did alot dame
:confused:

but dont get my worrg
i love my dragoon i wouldn't give it up for the world
it just no one care about dragoon my firewing <myt dragon
die and alot of dont care and dragon pet are what the job about
i'm not give it up any time soon

you can't find any drg on my server
i only know of 3 me/silver/and some other guy
but at the end dragoon will be on top

[goyagokou]

Well to that whole Bards completley outclass Red Mages at lvl60 talk, i'll belive it when a bard can nuke,heal, and tank if needed to, not till i see a bard solo some avatars at least lol.

Bards at higher levels may out support the red Mage in terms of MP regain, but a good red mage can still refresh good, red are more then just regain Mp, there are often use as whm. Or a blm for renkis or as a backup tank(Only if the situation gets serious they can stoneskin themselves till the mob gets off him). While a bard can regain your mp faster, and give you some nice accuray up and thats about it, a Red mage can be a mp regainer still, enough to get though Chains to 5, (Although a rdm+brds makes chains of 5 very easy). But red mages are not a *Complete support class* meaning a red mages role is not just mp regain but it mostly is, they can fill out the rolls of 4 jobs(Blm,Whm,Brd,meele if needed or back uptank with stoneskn and cure 4's;p).


if needed, while a brd can only prefrom 1 job, its the Red mages diversity that makes it a good and very diversit class. class. A Bard is asked for its songs of mp or accuray buffs, if it doesn't have them they useless, a Red mage can be asked to act as a whm or blm or as a backup tank or Usually a Mp regainer, Refresher, so please don't give me the Red mages are gimped to Bards because the rdm usefullness is not just in 2 spells but they ablitiles to act as 4 classes if needed.

[Cammus]

Comparing BRD and RDMs is silly.

And the best exp parties will have both.

RDM makes the mobs weaker, BRD makes everyone stronger.

The only common points are those:

1) both can give MP regen

2) You need one or another to get good xp past 55 (even better if both).

That being said, RDMs cant replace any tank period... If your party really needs you to tank with stoneskin, get another party...

RDMs are pretty bad replacing BLM as well at higher lvl. Your shot at decent damage is only by the burst and its like half to ten times worse than a BLM damage.

RDMs do replace WHMs easily though.

Unless you are talking about decent challenge mobs... well xp parties usually comes from IT mobs.

And BRDs only useful for MP regen and Accuracy bonus? Man you should read more into what the songs can do, thats about as bad as saying RDMs are only good for refresh.

[fuz]

The primary role for rdm and brd is

1. increase MP regen rate
2. dispel

Tada.

In that regard they are nearly equal, but rdm is actually a little better. But when it comes to buffs/debuffs, brd's buffs are so strong it doesn't matter what the rdm can do. The songs boost so well, it makes a shitty PT turn out good, and a great PT unstopable. If you think all a brd can do is use only 2 songs, think again. They normaly run 4 different songs running back and forth recasting. The also enfeeble the mob and don't have to worry about the effect not stacking with magic enffebs. Think a rdm can have 5 spells or more on everyone in the area within a minute including the mob?

Not to mention many of the enfeebling and buff spells that rdm has can be cast by blm and whm. They might stick better but things tend to die fast with lvl 3 skillchains anyway. Whats really sad is that drk has a higher elemental spell cap than rdm, so rdm is restriced to casting the highest level spells they can get just to do on-par damage with a blm. Normaly rdm is limited to MBing and still doesn't do much damage.

I don't think rdm soloing an avatar as some sort of arrogant show really dictates how good a class is, except maybe... soloing an avatar.

Give me a choice of a rdm or an equivalent brd, and I will always take the brd first, no question. In my eyes they do very much outclass any other support job.

[Weezingpipes]

Fuz is right, even a shitty bard can make a bad group decent, and a good group great. The bard doesn't even have to do much more than sing ballad and melee songs - obviously its to the parties benefit if the BRD does slow, threnody, heals up after fights, handles status cures, handles any CC, gets Madrigal/Minuet in early to get the most use out of it, keeps Ballad constant and has good positioning with PLD too. I'll agree, a RDM can easily replace a WHM... but most people go with WHM simply for the safety factor of not having to suck Raise 1 if something goes wrong, and group buffs are convenient, and access to *all* status cures. Get a great RDM and a great BRD in the same party though, the exp flows like water (assuming everyone else is good too).

What can be said about RDM enfeebles is they do help a WHM's healing efficiency in that they have to heal less if all enfeebles are on, and it is noticeable...but only to the WHM. In terms of what helps the rest of the party, Gravity barely helps melee hit better, Dia barely helps melee do higher damage, Silence is very situational that it is *needed*, but nice to have when it is, and RDM doesn't have a way to augment BLM damage the way Threnodies can, and Haste falls under the "nice to have but not really needed" category really, and a WHM can do that too. Assuming you don't need Silence, most people will take a BRD over a RDM in a heartbeat in the support role.

Sad but true, no one compares to a brd in the support role.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by goyagokou
Well to that whole Bards completley outclass Red Mages at lvl60 talk, i'll belive it when a bard can nuke,heal, and tank if needed to, not till i see a bard solo some avatars at least lol.

Bards at higher levels may out support the red Mage in terms of MP regain, but a good red mage can still refresh good, red are more then just regain Mp, there are often use as whm. Or a blm for renkis or as a backup tank(Only if the situation gets serious they can stoneskin themselves till the mob gets off him). While a bard can regain your mp faster, and give you some nice accuray up and thats about it, a Red mage can be a mp regainer still, enough to get though Chains to 5, (Although a rdm+brds makes chains of 5 very easy). But red mages are not a *Complete support class* meaning a red mages role is not just mp regain but it mostly is, they can fill out the rolls of 4 jobs(Blm,Whm,Brd,meele if needed or back uptank with stoneskn and cure 4's;p).


if needed, while a brd can only prefrom 1 job, its the Red mages diversity that makes it a good and very diversit class. class. A Bard is asked for its songs of mp or accuray buffs, if it doesn't have them they useless, a Red mage can be asked to act as a whm or blm or as a backup tank or Usually a Mp regainer, Refresher, so please don't give me the Red mages are gimped to Bards because the rdm usefullness is not just in 2 spells but they ablitiles to act as 4 classes if needed.

Wow. I hate to be rude, but honestly, how did you get to a relatively high level with such misinformation and ignorance of other jobs? I'm not saying that you yourself are ignorant, but the statements in your post certainly are.

I am comparing RDM and BRD *purely* in XP party terms. RDM will not be a main tank, or rarely even tank at all, in an xp PT. What, are you going to sub WAR or something? RDM nukes start doin piddly damage except in MB's, and even then they won't nearly compare to a BLM's nukes, nor any other DD's DPS. RDM physical attacks start doin crap or missing entirely, especially without a BRD's madrigal. Why? Because RDM's 1hs is a B weapon and they don't use acc+ equipment. Even when you do hit, you'll do piddly damage.

Versatile? Please. Bard is the most versatile support class hands down at high levels. Not only do you show your ignorance of bards by saying they're only good for ballad and madrigal, you also show that you haven't really read any of the previous posts. I hate to repeat previous posts, but... BRD/WHM can heal, madrigal, minuet, ballad, march, threnody, hunter prelude, carnage elegy, etude, status cure, among other things.

As for your placing RDM on a pedestal... yes, RDM's main advantage over BRD is that they can solo easier at higher levels. However, this discussion is about XP party play. RDM don't compare at ALL to a BLM or melee DD, so I don't even know why you think they can replace those roles. Hell, my PLD will do more damage than most RDMs. And I already told you why RDM are horrible tanks in XP PTs... you (as in RDM in general) do such crappy damage that even if a THF fuidama'd on you, you wouldn't steal the PLD's hate.

RDM *can* replace WHM... however, I think this is risky for the same reasons the posters above me do. No Raise II/III, no stona, no Regen II/III and of course the inconvenient lack of -ra spells. RDM+BRD may make parties really great, but honestly I think a BRD+BRD would be even better... think about it... 2 madrigal+minuet+march on melees, 2 madrigal+minuet+ballad2 on PLD, 2 ballad + etudes and whatnot on mages, never missing a threnody, elegy, etc.... I'm pretty sure this would make battles end faster than the relatively low damage output of a RDM (even with madrigal). The main draw of RDM+BRD is the potential 6mp/sec refresh, but this won't help battles end faster unless the BLM nukes like crazy.

[JexIntrepid]

I thought alot of bard's songs don't stack, so having 2 brds wouldn't really stack the songs... = have a brd for healing, another brd for acc+ and mp refill

I'd rather have a rdm in party WITH a brd. the rdm can refresh, do additional dmg with its nukes (which helps out blm cuz the more you even out the nuking dmg, the less the mob targets the blm). Even if the dmg is subpar to blm nukes, it's still decent ADDED dmg. meanwhile, the rdm can backup heal, and participate in melee with en-spells. All of this ADDED bonuses. And then rdm enfeebles the mob well, which makes dmg dealers kill it more quickly. All of this with the bard stacking up the refreshing mp, and enhancing acc. which also makes the kills go faster = 0 downtime.


I'd want that. My best party so far was:

1 whm/blm, 1smn/whm, 1 brd/whm, 1 mnk/thf (me), 1thf/war, 1 nin/war

Granted we were in Garlaige Citadel, and we're still low lvls, but there was literally 0 downtime. The bard made us hit pretty well against IT +, and the thf laid the hate well unto the nin/war. The whm had us cured the whole time, and the brd did an awesome job keeping up with songs. The smn did a good job as well, but had he been replaced by a rdm, the fights would've gone quicker cuz if the mobs were enfeebled, our dmg would've been much better. whm's enfeebling didn't land all too often.

[goyagokou]

Well in a pure XP PT Bard will probarly outedge Rdm in a regular battle in terms of Support, But the main songs the bards cast are either ballad 2 or their accuray up songs, out of the 3-4 times i have PT with bards in the lvl60 range, these two songs are what people love them for, although they can still do other songs, those two songs are their bread in butter in getting fast PT invites, i was talking overall, as a class the Rdm can perfom a lot more dutites. The last PT i was in had no whm because they were all alseep or in PTs already, so i acted as whm and with another rdm and we were getting constant Chain 5 with little downtime (It burned me out after a while, stressfull as hell.) the Tactic we used usually was that the other Rdm would convert after the 4th chain and nuke the enemy as much as possible trying to get constant MB with the meeles, while i did the same for the fifth chain with the blm. Im saying in the same sitiuation 2 brds wouln't be able to change their tactics and act as both a effective whm or refresher. If they had to.



I already know with a Brd and Rdm is what is a standard for a lot of PTs, but getting 2 Brds is prefered(Although its hard enough to get 1 anyway, cause of them being rare.) they still can't Enfeeble the enemy or heal effectively some of the PT members like a Rdm can and still be able to refresh well. (When ever the Brd with Whm sub healed he would run out of MP after the fifth spell, and i even had to refresh him then, so i know fully well they can't heal effectively. He had to heal because the IT mob did hes Screwdriver 2 times in a role, Prepatch) Hearing all these people say how much better Brd is In reganing Mp and accuray up is probarly ture(Again i know That Brds have more then these two songs but they are they most usefull in the XP PTs iv'e been with em. Being in a good PT with a Brd makes lvling up a lot less painfull, and they run around a lot, so im not here to diss brds in general.) But the fact remains they can't heal or enfeeb and make the enemys defense weaking like a Rdm can. But if they job as you said is just Pure support job in Xp PTs then (In terms of Mp regain and Accuray up for meeles who find it very helpfull, in terms of them hitting the IT mob often.) I would agree that Brds outclass Rdms.

[imac2much]

Oh okay, I think we agree in a lot of key points, and I just misunderstood a few things. However, let me butt in my humble opinion again...

Bard songs don't stack, if they're exactly the same. For example, Ballad2 and Ballad2 will not stack... but Ballad1 and Ballad2 will stack. Who needs enfeebles? I mean honestly? If one BRD is giving melees 2 Madrigals (accuracy+), then the other BRD can give 2 Minuets (atk+) or Minuet + March (attack speed+). There is absolutely no way enfeebles are better than those songs. Additionally, BLM will *already* do much better damage with a BRD thanks to threnodies (if your BRD isn't using these, he needs to get shot), but getting some INT+ etudes is going to make those nukes even MORE powerful. And, of course, any RNG can tell you how incredibly useful Hunter's Prelude (RNG ACC+) is; basically, they don't need to sub NIN anymore for the dual wielding archer knives, and they can sub WAR for 'zerk (even though they'll already have a Minuet or two), and do Sidewinders for 4-500 more damage. Oh, and /WHM can heal decently (not enough to replace a WHM obviously), and they do have a useful enfeeble in Carnage elegy (slows the monster). These are the VERY USEFUL bard traits, not things that just complement Madrigal and Ballad. If you have a good BRD, they'll be doing all of this, and honestly I expect them to.

I don't understand how RDM is more versatile in XP PT, still... I mean, yeah they can replace WHM, but that's it. Their DPS and tanking ability are relatively useless. I was speaking of ideal party setups, not 'if there are no WHMs seeking party...', even though that is a practical point. Hm, what do you think of a 65+ PLD+DRK+RDM+2BRD+BLM? PLD and DRK use darkness lvl 3 renkei (swift -> cross reaper), RDM and BLM MB, PLD and DRK will have haste, 2 madrigals, 2 minuets (substitute a minuet for ballad2 for PLD), BLM and BRD will have +INT and ballads and refresh, you have 4 potential healers... wow, the more I think about it, the more this party would rock. Then again, you could probably replace the PLD with a WAR since battles won't last as long and you have so much healing power, then you could do a light renkei... does Mistral Axe -> Spinning Slash work?

[goyagokou]

I never PT with 2 brds, and i thought that they ballads stack, but since they don't wouldn't a Rdm and Brd be better for mp regain, since one of the bards can only do Ballad 1? Or are you taking of all those +attack, + Int and Rng accuray buffs that the other bard can do while the other just keeps everyone getting ballad 2 for the others?

[Weezingpipes]

Personally I think the best set up is RDM BRD BLM tank melee melee. A good bard can add all that stuff, or at least the relevant ones. A second BRD just for Etudes etc seems not worth it...from what I've seen most BRD don't bother with +stat buffs simply because it doesn't make as big of a difference as madrigals, minuets, hunters, threnodies, elegy, ballad etc. Basically a second BRD would be one needlessly taking up a slot, when another melee can add more damage simply just auto attacking then the difference a second bard would add, given the second bard is reduced to the less important songs and 1 bard can already cover all the important bases every fight. Also as WAR tanks go, I do think it is a job fairly dependant on a secondary hate boost to tank (ie, someone with Trick Attack) as their only JA's for agro are Provoke and War Cry. Damage output alone really can't do it unless they are especially well equipped, which basically cuts out most high level warriors with the usual equipment set ups. I'm personally not a fan of any party that needs to renkei with the tank, and while a WAR is a better option for a skillchain than a PLD is, there are a lot of factors to be considered.

[Zaptruder]

I've got a couple ideas that might be able to 'fix' the dragoon class, see if any of you like it (or not; tell me why).

The main complaints is that dragoon is just a shitty melee damage dealing class; it's paper thin armor doesn't exactly make it strong as a secondary anything either; and the wyvern, while nice doesn't make up for the poor damage of the actual job itself.
Moreover, it's a pretty boring job to play... the mainjob abilities are relatively limited; to summoning a wyvern and moving that wyvern around, while keeping a look out for TP and spamming jump attacks; which don't happen very frequently at all; and the last jump attack doesn't even do anything (you don't generate enough hate to worth you while mitigating it).

It's not a great fix towards alot of the problems that exist in the class, but without I think making the class overpowered, one way to increase damage is simply to make all the jump abilities damage dealing abilities. Moreover, have high jump deal more damage then a normal jump and superjump deal alot more damage then a normal jump. In addition, make the accuracy of jump greater than 75% (or whatever number they figure is good). To balance this; give superjump a provoke sideeffect when it hits, moreover hate isn't shed with superjump.
To make it intresting; give them another ability called feint; which activates like sneak attack - lasts for most of a minute, requiring a minute recharge time; the next jump ability to be used with feint will instead of dealing damage shed hate, ala high jump and super jump; with high and super jump shedding appropriately increasing amounts of hate.

If this were done; it wouldn't compromise the role that dragoons have been given; while making the role more strategically interesting (do you use superjump to deal the barrage like hate and risk getting shredded in the process or attempt to mitigate superjumps hate with a feint highjump? in turn reducing your overall damage output). Moreover, it would make the jumps more similar to the previous nature they had in other FF games; high damage slow attacks, which IMO is a good thing.

Another suggestion, although this might make them too powerful; would be to let they wyvern grow; so it starts off as summoning a 'baby wyvern' which is what you current wyvern is - doing random breath attacks and shallow amounts of damage. Then at lvl 30; you get a normal wyvern (losing the ability to summon a baby wyvern; of course) - which is similar to the baby; but a bit bigger graphically, also with slightly upgraded attacks, and with an increase in chance of using the right breath attack (or have the breath attack deal more damage, either way). Finally at lvl 60, the wyvern grows into an adult wyvern; the size of maybe a tiger mob or something like that; this time gaining elemental attacks similar to rdm's en-weapon spells.
If they wanted to seal in the unique nature of the dragoon class; they might also want to give them a "ride wyvern" ability at LV70 - which is an ability exclusive to a dragoon that has an adult wyvern out; allowing them to travel to any teleport point (that they have a crystal of) as well as back to their HP and to any outpost (that they've been to previously); although this (moreso then anything else in this post) is just wishful thinking.

[Takeo]

I'm a DRG/WAR 51. At this lvl is a miracle if u can find a party. Armors for this job SUXXXX very much. All good armors (with dex,str,atk.....) for DRK WAR PLD. I LEAVE THIS GAME cause get bored... always lfg.............. rarely get inv. I love to be aDRG, but at lvls +50............. Guys get ready ur ass stay in the ground lfg for hours.
One more thing JAP ppl dont like drg job. I think Jap an Eng ppl is better in different servers cause I try always speak for a party......................... never accept o.O rarely answer.........

Guys make sure if u will get DRG. Ifu get a plenty of inv u should get MAGE or PLD.