DRG's feeling screwed? do something about it!

[Hattori Hanzo]

Originally posted by Lan'Urk
because there is a very good reason for them to be the way they are.

~Lanurk

:confused:

Your post makes no sense.

Anywho, the skill comment: Nothing in this game takes skill; just time, and common sense.

[Lan'Urk]

Originally posted by Hattori Hanzo


:confused:

Your post makes no sense.

Anywho, the skill comment: Nothing in this game takes skill; just time, and common sense.

I totally disagree with that... if you want to be a mediocre player... yes that would be enough but to be good on what you do it does require skill. which you get from practice and study.

Im just trying to point out that perhaps DRG was designed to have a tougher time than DRK (doing less damage and what not) therefore attracting players that are up to the challange of having to go to places that people usually dont go, and learning how to lead parties and so on... And I think that SE is right by standing firm on that, because if they changed EVERYTHING players asked them too the whole system would go to shit, because everyone wants to be the strongest at everything...

Yes DRK are stronger damage dealers and have numbers on their side... but DRGs due to the necessity of them leading and forming their own Parties make them practice it more therefore becoming better leaders.... thats my look at that... might not make sense to you... which is fine... the same way that "fixing" all the jobs to be exactly the same thing except wearing different color armor makes not sense to me :confused:

PS. Although I do agree they should add more areas which DRGs could lvl... I think that would be more than enough to "fix" the DRG issue... and that is very possible to happen...

~Lanurk

[Rougtan]

Lan'Urk I completely aggre with you and couldnt have said it better myself.

Simply put, dont like the job? dont play it.

Complaining about finding a group? make your own, become known as a good party leader and people will want to party with you.

from 25 to 35 i got invited to 5 parties. I formed the rest on my own and i personally feel im a good party leader.

Learn about where your taking you group to hunt and get classes that can F**k up those monsters. Dragoon is a more chalengeing class becuase you have to let yuorself become well verse din the game and the areas within it.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Originally posted by Lan'Urk


I totally disagree with that... if you want to be a mediocre player... yes that would be enough but to be good on what you do it does require skill. which you get from practice and study.



~Lanurk

I think you and I have a different conception of skill. I don't consider FFXI a skill based game; I feel it requires time and common sense. Hitting alt+3 at the right moment every 90 seconds isn't skill, it's just common sense.

You have XX abilities; they do XX to the mob, so I do them at this point.

Skill based games are shooters, or platforming games, or what have you.

Anywho, your "Dragoon a harder climb" arguement doesn't hold any water if it was deliberately added for that purpose. The problems with Dragoon occur near the end game, and weren't readily apparent obviously to S-E when they added Dragoon. Now, that they're known, they can be addressed without dramatically altering the job, namely beefed up weaponskills, and a more pratical secondary weapon. Completely revamping leveling areas (which I feel needs to be addressed), is a major change, and would directly affect every job.

[goudaba]

Ok, I agree that DRG are a harder class to boost, I must also agree that will come time where every DRG will have to either have a "Go buy yourself x lottewry tickets, you'll win the million" luck or form their own PT. (BTW I still have trouble understanding how could a static or LS PT can work with everything that could occur outside the game). But If the DRG player is having a strong enough spirit to take the drawback of Lving in some less common places with hader mobs and less Xp/Hour, would other "easy" classes that could make x(more) xp/hour will be willing to join?
If the "DRG are made to be more challenging" is true, then we are cursed to find PT members that are strong willing and understand the fact that Xp wont flow like clear water in their hands.

Even the fact, I know I'm a good player, I have the will to go on as long as I can, and even If I haven't reached the PT wall, I'm already starting to find some other things to do for those unsuccessfull nights.

A small idea tho, even if it could be countered or criticized. As far as I know, polearms in RPG's are known to be armor piercing, why wouldn't we get a small DMG bonus for those DEF based monsters with tick and hard armor on (I mainly think of the beetle and crabs here) as a piercing weapon is meant to pass through those armors? Oh, and add more dragons, to make our dragon killer/ancient circle more usefull and for the cool factor

[Weezingpipes]

Im sorry, but i dont think we will ever agree in this point... I have said before, and I will repeat this... i dont think DRG was even meant to deal as much damage as a DRK, I think DRG was designed to be an alternative for players that think that DRK is not hard enough (which there are plenty out there). as far a balance among classes I think, there is balance you guys are just looking in the wrong place... I think the balace is exactly in the different difficulty lvl, some players want to have all the odds on their side, some players dont... thats what I think SE meant on the creation of the DRGs... to challange players to have a tougher time and grow with the difficulty... and saying that the difficulty on those expansion jobs is just on the quest is EXTREMELY superficial, because Its so evident... just compare PLD with Blink tanking, so much harder, and you have a lot more room for error...

I think DRG is the result of a lunch break which some S-E guys had the following discussion : "Hey, remember Kain? He was cool as hell, lets make Dragoons who are really good with Polearms, have some jumps, a wyvern...come on guys this job practically plays itself!" (feel free to translate that into japanese for a more realistic feel). And so, Dragoons were born.

The notion that there is more to playing a DRG than a DRK is in a word idiotic. DRK have these things called spells. They are useful. Some examples : direct damage spells, mp drain, stun, bind, sleep, absorb spells. In addition, DRK is A+ in Scythe, A- in Greatsword which allows players to base party compositions around what they use, in other words much nicer versatility in party formations. DRK is a viable puller due to the aforementioned spells, ability to use ranged weapons to a limited degree (you know DRG doesn't even know how to throw pebbles right? White mages can do that). Sleep allows them limited crowd control (not quite as reliably as a BRD, RDM or BLM, but its something). Better itemization including higher DEF armor, better stat armor period, better weapon selection across the board, and Soul Eater allows for short duration high burst damage. They have all kinds of tools to make them viable damage dealers, solid pullers, the best choice for replacing a THF's role with a THF sub. In addition when the shit hits the fan, the PLD or NIN dies or DC's, who do you want to scoop up the monster to prevent a wipe, a DRG or a DRK (yep, seen it happen at higher levels even). The guy with decent agro spells, better DEF, better damage output to keep hate, or the guy with lower damage output, lower DEF, no abilities to gain hate (hell, we specialize in REMOVING hate)? Wow, DRK is lookin pretty spiff.

But in the interest of fairness, lets check out DRG. DRG has Jump. It does some damage (once every few hours you might jump for a mildly impressive amount), basically its a free tick of TP if it lands. High jump, removes hate, minimal damage, and Super Jump, completely removes hate. As well as that little bit of lag which hits like a Red Mage that follows you around, the l33t wyvern. Depending on what you sub, the breath it does can vary. Basically if you gimp your offensive ability for a WHM/BLM sub, you can do really weak heal breaths that don't make for practical back up healing under a certain % of health, or status cures, or the offensive breath with other jobs, which is basically free extra damage thats often incredibly low and even combined with your WS damage, won't outdo just the WS damage of a DRK (sorry, thats untrue for about 10 levels, definately not higher levels). Lets discuss some roles - DRG has no spells, so thats out. DRG makes a poor puller due to 1) shit ass DEF 2) Jump is shorter range than provoke with 3 times the reuse time 3) inability to use *any* ranged weaponry even at the lowest skill ranking. DRG can't tank because 1) no high agro generating abilities, unless you sub WAR which leads to 2) low DEF...we have lower DEF than mages at high levels, I've checked, sad but true. Lets talk perks : DRG makes a better renkei partner at almost all levels with a THF compared to a DRK due to WS design. This is an advantage true, because a good THF can be a great boon to a party. Also due to the aforementioned jumps, even with a bad THF, your party won't be completely crippled because of 1 bad player. THF sub is sorta gay because of the dependance on multi hit WS, where the single hit WS do terrible damage so a DRG can't replace a THF as well as a DRK could. I think its more viable with Impulse Drive, but hell why not get the DRK regardless the damage is higher period. Oh, and by the way, the second best weapon for a DRG is Staves. While everyone bitches about all Greatsword WS sucking ass until Spinning Slash (because its true), ALL Staff WS suck. Not to mention A- vs B- ranking...at level 70 thats a 21 point difference for anyone keeping track, and yes, that IS a lot.

Originally when I chose DRG, I thought it would sorta be like playing an EQ Rogue : high damage output with hate mitigation ability, and proper timing of those abilities was key to playing the job well. I have pretty good equipment, and usually I don't generate enough damage to even consider needing to use a jump to shed hate (or maybe the tanks I've grouped with are THAT good, but I doubt it). The irony of giving the best hate mitigation to one of the least damaging melee jobs doesn't escape me, and I hope doesn't escape the rest of you.

[Weezingpipes]

I also think that saying that those jobs are so "easy" to play, you seem to not understand the game fully... since playing the game is not only know when to place your job skills, but know where to go, with what kind of set up, and having general knowledge of the system itself. If a DRG has all that skill and practice (which most have to get past the 60+ barrier) they can perform just as well as a DRK (which allows a lot more room for slacking and letting your Party do all the research and learning while you just hit stuff).

I can safely say I know how to build parties better than most people that ask me to groups. This isn't arrogance or anything either. THF asked me to group the other day. About a minute later I was informed they invited a DRK instead, and they have a paladin. Nice, renkei every other fight leaving the THF to do solo ws. A few weeks before then, someone invited me to a party, they said how about a warrior. I said "I can't really renkei with a warrior, get him instead of me and say a DRK with Spinning slash, or THF, or MNK". They got the warrior. We did Raging Rush > Skewer for Impaction if I recall..couldn't really do much better than that. Hell mages I know ask me who they should invite to their groups when they have x composition because they simply don't have the same frame of reference I do usually. I also know where to exp with a party. I don't take a party with a 73 to Dragon's Aery when most of the party is 68-70...hell I don't invite the 73 in the first place, and you'd be surprised how many people do. I know what monsters I do better against, and what ones I do worse against. The other day I was in a party which was PLD DRK BRD BLM WHM me. DRK had Spinning Slash and THF sub (needless to say...thats some ownage). Exp would've been better for me if I was higher level. We discussed grouping the next day around the middle of the day. Later on I discovered all of them grouped with a warrior in the slot I would be instead. I don't necessarily blame them. Warrior does better damage, and they were fighting bones which needless to say not even close to a viable option for me.

I don't buy into the "challenge class" argument. To me, a more challenging job to play is Summoner, as without the summons you are shit, and the summons are sorta challenging to defeat, especially Fenrir and require high levels to beat. High level SMN is still kinda ehhh, but whatever. Ninja to me is more challenging to play, but they have a great benefit too - whats better than tanking and taking 0 damage most of the time, minimalizing downtime due to minimal healing? Let me know when you figure out that brain teaser. Rangers too I think are more challenging to play. They have equivalent gimp def of a DRG, only proficient in ranged weapons - if they use melee weapons as their primary source of damage its a waste of a group spot, and are HEAVILY equipment dependant, probably more so than any other job I've seen played. There is a big difference between a RNG decked out in millions of gil bows, high damage (expensive) arrows, a buncha ranged ATK and ACC equipment, and most rangers who can't afford all that, deal slightly above average damage. Also because of their high damage output generate high hate which DOES take a smart player to be able to manage their hate without forsaking their sustained damage output. All these jobs do take skill to get the most out of.

I'll say it again so you stop equating expansion jobs with challenge : its an expansion to the game, they added jobs they thought would be nifty, not for the challenge factor. When they added Luclin expansion in EQ they added a new class. Was it hard to play? Nope, my EQ guild botted one on many raids and it was as good as having someone play it full time honestly. Same thing here, expansion job =! challenge.

If say DRG got abilities from challenging quests which gave them significant advantages compared to other jobs, I'd buy the challenge argument. The only advantage I see to playing a DRG presently is at 65, a DRG has higher desireability than a SAM to a party. You are the second to last guy picked for kickball teams, congratulations.

Ok, I know this post is stupidly long (this was 1 post with the above one, btw the limit is 10000 characters for anyone who wondered...), but to the guy who said just play another job..when I saw DRG sucked, I had two options : quit DRG, level another useful job and never group with my friends again, or keep leveling DRG, hope it got better over time, and keep playing the game with my friends. I went for the latter. Like all games of this genre I do expect the job issues to be remedied, eventually. Not tomorrow, maybe not even a month from now, or 6 months from now. Eventually. Basically planning on 75 and then continuing Warrior from 37 cuz Warriors are pretty fine at all levels, can fill multiple roles too. Its a good balanced job.

I hope Dragoons can be warriors one day.

[Carbon]

Im just trying to point out that perhaps DRG was designed to have a tougher time than DRK (doing less damage and what not) therefore attracting players that are up to the challange of having to go to places that people usually dont go, and learning how to lead parties and so on... And I think that SE is right by standing firm on that, because if they changed EVERYTHING players asked them too the whole system would go to shit, because everyone wants to be the strongest at everything...

The point that breaks your argument is that DRGs are NOT more challenging to play.

It's more challenging for your *party*, because they have to put up with your lack. You don't have to put up with anything, because you can't get better. Seriously, even amongst other damage dealers, DRG is one of the easiest jobs to master your role in party.

You do three things in a party:

Attack.
Skillchain.
Shed hate.

Attack: dragoon truly is one of the less cerebral jobs in the game. You poke with your spear/lance. Very challenging indeed.

Skillchain: skillchain when necessary. Very challenging indeed.

Shed hate: at higher levels you don't output enough damage that super jump becomes an necessity, unless you have a thief that's tricking onto you.

Exactly what more to the job is there? There isn't.

The only challenge is trying to convince other people to put up with you, and I serously doubt that was intended to be part of any job.

[evilution]

TBH If i have a THF in the group i look for a DRG over a DRK. There are plenty of non-bone options for the 65-75 level grind ESPECIALLY if you have done the Zillart missions..

[Lan'Urk]

You know, Im getting a lot of negative feedback because of my ideas and thoughts, so I decide to give up on it... I wont defend it anymore... If you dont agree with my ideas fine I respect it. Im fighting a lost battle that doesnt even concern me... There probably are a lot of people who read those posts and say "what is he talking about, hes not even a DRG" and guess what, they right, im not.

I just felt like sharing how I see that game in my mind, and my vision is clearly different from most people. Yes I do take it very seriously... maybe too seriously, but thats my choice.

From now on I will focus on my job and what I do have room to talk about... sorry to enrage some of you with my views...

~Lanurk

[imac2much]

I'm sorry Lanurk, I respect you as a Paladin, but I disagree with most of your points.

However, do not misinterpret this as a personal attack or flame as you seem to. You need to be able to take constructive criticism when you make a bold statement. People disagree with me ALL THE TIME, but I don't take it personally (unless it's a stupid flamer like lun4tic or something). If people disagree with you, put up with it, but keep in mind you are also bringing in fresh new ideas into the discussion, which is never truly a waste.

Okay, I may be repeating a lot of previously mentioned posts, but bear with me, as these are my opinions.

First, I honestly doubt these expansion jobs are supposed to be more "challenging" than others. Not. at. all. They were created because people wanted more varied jobs, just like currently people want Blue Mages and whatnot.

Second, there IS no challenge in playing DRG! Like someone else said, the only challenge is convincing a party at high levels to put up with you. DRG has no spells, no complicated skills, absolutely nothing complex about it. Let's look at other DD's:

DRK: Do more damage with enough *skill*, since they have several abilities to increase damage, but they need to be careful. Several useful spells such as the absorb line, stun, drain, aspir (esp if Darkness magic skill is capped and used during Darkness MB's). Two A weapons, allowing for 2 different lvl 3 renkeis even at lv 65.

SAM: At 70+, they shine once again, becoming masters of lvl 3 renkei. With SAM, you are able to do 2 lvl 3 renkeis in a battle with a tank (for darkness) and another melee (for light).

MNK: Just insane damage especially at high end. They have many more abilities than DRG, such as focus, dodge, counterstance, boost, chi blast, chakra, etc... letting them adjust or tinker with their fighting styles much more flexibly.

RNG: Insane damage once again, and they need to learn how to avoid hate more so than other DDs (except for MNKs at high end). However, I disagree that RNG take a lot of skill, generally all you need to know is how good your current tank is, then shoot with that in mind. I also think RNG makes the best pullers.

WAR: As Weezing said, WAR is incredibly versatile. They can be a great secondary tank, and they can also dish out great damage with Great Axe (until lv 65, when most WAR change to Axe for Mistral Axe, since Full Break isn't that great for damage). They also have a plethora of abilities at their disposal, allowing them to choose when to do damage (berserk) or tank for a bit (defender). Double Attack, Warcry, Aggressor are all nice offensively too.

THF: I don't think it's necessary for me to talk about THF since everyone knows how generally useful they are. Although they are still useful without yokodama, they take much more skill (as a party) for them to perform successful fuidamas. I personally believe THF takes the most skill out of all DD's.

NIN: Surprisingly, NIN's can make good DD's if they're willing to shell out unreasonable amount of gil per battle. Using capped throwing ability and the Juji Shuriken or better, they can do great damage in addition to Blade: Ku and Ninjitsu.

Out of all these DD's, DRG are definitely the simplest. All they do is poke poke poke, renkei, sometimes jump for TP. At high levels DRG will never gain aggro anyway, so jumps for hate removal are pretty worthless. The only times DRG will gain hate is around level 50-60 when some DRG still like to pentaspam, but that strategy becomes worse and worse, esp with the arrival of lvl 3 renkeis. The only other time DRG will gain hate is if a THF has to fuidama onto DRG, but as a PLD this has never been much of a problem to me. I did fine getting hate back even if the backup tank for the THF was MNK, DRK, WAR, etc, so the hate removing jumps aren't really that big a deal.

It's true that some people may personally consider the DRG path a challenge compared to other jobs, but this is not how S-E designed it. It's easy to see: the job itself is NOT challenging, it's just the path to level because DRG is overshadowed by almost all jobs at high end that makes it challenging. Once you actually get in a party, they are the easiest roles to play.

Don't get angry Lanurk, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Carbon]

BTW

If any job should have the "challenge" of forming and leading parties, I'd say it's Paladin.

Not that I'd wish the utter detestable horror of LFG onto anyone, but the image of a paladin seems to lend itself to being a leader, more so than any other job in my opinion =P.

[Lan'Urk]

Thats where my train of thought got started... saying that DRG is a Tought job, I didnt mean that the actual gameplay strategy of playing a DRG is harder, but instead meaning that, since they HAVE to make their own PTs it would require a lot more of outside study of the general gameplay (as in places to hunt, what kind of people to match up and etc), leading the player to study those factors a lot more in depth than other jobs that dont require such work.

But my decision to drop such a subject and not argue about it its because its very hypocritical of me to say such things to an already experienced DRG... its not my role, im a lvl 2 DRG I know nothing of the subject. I'm just being very arrogant by saying that I know more about DRG than Weezing for example... maybe someday I might and I might still think im right, but right now I wont attack his opinion.... at this point I say hes probably right.

I still believe in what I have said in the past, but I will not go on until I have a better understanding of my theory, otherwise I would be just talking out of my ass....

PS. Im not angry and I didnt take most of the replies as "Flame", but I wont defend my theory any further until I have better evidence.

~Lanurk

[ochibi]

this is truly a depressing thread indeed, now im torn between continuing my journey as the first galka dragoon to reach level 75 or not....

but with that said do you guys think lowering the interval for lances to about 350 help the dragoon? because in a true definition of a spear or polearm they are supposed to be swift and deadly not cumbersome and panzy... i personally think decreasing the attack rate for the polearm class in general would help the dragoon.

what are some high level opinions on this?

[ochibi]

Originally posted by Lan'Urk
Im sorry, but i dont think we will ever agree in this point... I have said before, and I will repeat this... i dont think DRG was even meant to deal as much damage as a DRK, I think DRG was designed to be an alternative for players that think that DRK is not hard enough (which there are plenty out there). as far a balance among classes I think, there is balance you guys are just looking in the wrong place... I think the balace is exactly in the different difficulty lvl, some players want to have all the odds on their side, some players dont... thats what I think SE meant on the creation of the DRGs... to challange players to have a tougher time and grow with the difficulty... and saying that the difficulty on those expansion jobs is just on the quest is EXTREMELY superficial, because Its so evident... just compare PLD with Blink tanking, so much harder, and you have a lot more room for error...

and i 100% disagree that "Challanging"="lazy and lack of foresight in design"... i think challanging=giving players more problems to overcome with skill... if all games were a walk in the park it would be interesting for just a short period of time...


I also think that saying that those jobs are so "easy" to play, you seem to not understand the game fully... since playing the game is not only know when to place your job skills, but know where to go, with what kind of set up, and having general knowledge of the system itself. If a DRG has all that skill and practice (which most have to get past the 60+ barrier) they can perform just as well as a DRK (which allows a lot more room for slacking and letting your Party do all the research and learning while you just hit stuff).

Thats why I think DRGs deserve a lot more respect than they are getting right now... for them to succeed require a lot more work and dedication, but that doesnt mean they all "suck". By saying that you are implying that there is no player skill in factor in this game, which could not be any more wrong.

Of course you can have your opinion and I respect it, im just trying to inform how I dont think DRG will ever be "fixed"(as in my opinion, not saying that its a fact... i might be wrong, or i might be right... i dont know), because there is a very good reason for them to be the way they are.

~Lanurk

from a philosophical stand point i understand where you are coming from, from a practical standpoint no offence but it is way off.

your point coming across as the dragoon is purposely made this way because players will have a sense of a achievement and prestige because they overcame an incredibly difficult path unfortunatly does not hold in such a capitalisitic environment. especially if we are paying real money each month for this game and ones goals is to get to the top with their respective favorite job that will eventually cancel out (as you seen most dragoons quitting post 55-60).

dont get me wrong i love a sense of achievement and prestige (to some extent. BTW for reference sake im not extremely right winged or extremely left winged i would consider myself being in the middle of the 2 extremes). but Lanurk i do understand where you are coming from, from a philosophical left winged point of view, but again unfortunatly most people do not play this game for a sense of challange or achievement since they are paying per month they want to get the most "bang for their buck".

i myself am playing the dragoon for nostalgic purposes (FF2 - Cain) but if what most people are saying it is true (and wheezingpipes holds extremely convincing arguments) then unless i have a static party it will be extremely hard to level a job that just holds nostalgic purposes... especially since this is a game involving many people and the exact definition of ethics is making decisions that would involve everyones self-interest including yourself, with this in mind from what wheesingpipes has to say seems to not coincide with the definitions of ethics. im not saying having the dragoon job is unethical but if you did buy this game to play with other people you should not be compromising your self-interests by waiting in jeuno to get a party or trying your absolute hardest in order to make a party only knowing for it to break up after a while. you should take care of your own self-interests too.

and again dont get me wrong i believe games should be played for fun and the way you wish as opposed to capitalizing on it thats probably the reason i never got into the E-Bay selling of diablo 2 items no matter how much i raved about wanting to do it.

so in conclusion, i wish that we could all play the jobs we truly desire and get the same amount of invites a normal WHM or BRD or any caster for that matter would have. but unfortunatly with the current conditions as of now i will never hold, unless of course an update happens. all in all do not torture yourself, your interests count as well, unless of course your passion for such jobs are that strong, then by all means go ahead :-)