Dragoons got squarewed

[Saedius]

Originally posted by Weezingpipes
7) In the end, Dragoons should be outdamaging Dark Knights really. Dark Knights don't pay hardly any penalties, are proficient with a few different weapons which means good skillchain versatility, have good utility spells and a good spell line up in general, and have access to much better defensive equipment. While I'll grant you Dark Knights have no natural hate mitigation ability to speak of, there are ways to counter this without sacrificing much in terms of damage output, and a well played Dark Knight WILL outclass a Dragoon significantly. Given our lack of utility and weapon versatility, this is also fairly unbalanced. Even if you fight things that don't kill your wyvern fast with AE's, a good Dark Knight is still more damaging. Simply put the best played Dragoon won't touch the best played Dark Knight in damage output. I used to believe the hate removal of a Dragoon would make the difference on the whole, but it honestly doesn't if your tank is good enough.
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[Saedius]

Originally posted by Weezingpipes
7) In the end, Dragoons should be outdamaging Dark Knights really. Dark Knights don't pay hardly any penalties, are proficient with a few different weapons which means good skillchain versatility, have good utility spells and a good spell line up in general, and have access to much better defensive equipment. While I'll grant you Dark Knights have no natural hate mitigation ability to speak of, there are ways to counter this without sacrificing much in terms of damage output, and a well played Dark Knight WILL outclass a Dragoon significantly. Given our lack of utility and weapon versatility, this is also fairly unbalanced. Even if you fight things that don't kill your wyvern fast with AE's, a good Dark Knight is still more damaging. Simply put the best played Dragoon won't touch the best played Dark Knight in damage output. I used to believe the hate removal of a Dragoon would make the difference on the whole, but it honestly doesn't if your tank is good enough.
[/B]

You have lost your damned mind... no penalty?!?!?!? 10% of HP per successful hit (Soul Eater). Friggin provoke like action attached to both Soul Eater AND Last Resort and the highest miss rate in the game.

[JexIntrepid]

Originally posted by Ayako2
Well, since I lost my cookie, and this POS forums' password retrieval doesn't like to send emails, we revert to this account for now.

Every job is what you make of it. The "renkei versatility" thing someone mentioned earlier is total BS. Spear WS can finish kakunetsu, Penta can finish the lvl 2 dark, Double/Skewer can start incurve, Daisharin is light, Impulse is dark. What other renkeis do your parties use? If it's any other, your party is shit to begin with.
I can make a renkei with any job i party with, be it DRK, PLD, MNK, THF. or WAR. Dai > Spin or Impulse > Cross/Spiral are the ones of choice, anyway.

Does DRG get shafted? Hell yes. Wyverns have low HP and can't be cured. We get the worst equipment, including cursed equipment (why the fuck do we need all that MP?) Our high end weapons come from difficult NMs that pop sparingly, and of course our intrinsic abilities don't come to use until ridiculously high levels. (great, ancient circle vs. an HNM for one minute, hey it might work once! of course we shouldnt be in the PT with the tank, so it won't work anyway). The bones thing is a big problem. I went to Ranperres' the other night and did 5 damage without food eaten. It's ridiculous. I would have just used a sword if I didn't need to start the renkei. There are alternative leveling spots, but no one will really want to go there. 73+ is gonna be Ro Maeve, and all weapons, so no wyvern there

Ninja tanks rock if they know how to keep hate.
Samurai......sucks unless they sub RNG and have good accuracy with bows.
Dragoon...look like a mecha batman.

Every job is flawed except Bard. Just a matter of whether you enjoy playing it.

IMO, i feel the only thing that would really make Drgs happy altogether is having a bit more versatility in renkeis, and for that, all you would need is higher proficiency in 2h Staves maybe A- , kinda like how Drks got their GS proficiency increased. Overall, i don't even see an advanced class that uses 2h staves that's really a dmg dealer and has it as their highest proficiency, so it'd be better to go ahead with that plan. The wyvern is fine, too many ppl cry about it, but once they get the AF armor, they're fine with it.

WEak against bones, but that's just the moment for monks to shine, even Drks get shadowed by Monks at that point. I think monks deserve it as they get pretty much shafted until Raging Fists.

And no, Samurai DOESN"T suck. If you ever saw a high lvl Sam, who knows his role, you would see how easily he could create renkeis, cause major dmg because his meditate is 2x as much as subbed, and how often he can pentaspam if he switches from GS to Spear once in a while. I've seen some great Sam's and now they get a 5 hit WS, which makes them pretty damn useful. Ppl would pass some Drk's over for a Sam, because Sam won't get you necessarily as low hp as a Drk using SoulEater, Guillotine.
And with good accuracy, Samurais are pretty damn good high leveled.

So stop crying about the wyvern, guys, and try to get 2h staff proficiency to A or A-, that way you'll fit in more.

[Dredge]

In the end, Dragoons should be outdamaging Dark Knights really. Dark Knights don't pay hardly any penalties, are proficient with a few different weapons which means good skillchain versatility, have good utility spells and a good spell line up in general, and have access to much better defensive equipment. While I'll grant you Dark Knights have no natural hate mitigation ability to speak of, there are ways to counter this without sacrificing much in terms of damage output, and a well played Dark Knight WILL outclass a Dragoon significantly. Given our lack of utility and weapon versatility, this is also fairly unbalanced. Even if you fight things that don't kill your wyvern fast with AE's, a good Dark Knight is still more damaging. Simply put the best played Dragoon won't touch the best played Dark Knight in damage output. I used to believe the hate removal of a Dragoon would make the difference on the whole, but it honestly doesn't if your tank is good enough.

A well-equipped DRG with a wyvern will outdamage a DRK. Easily.

Last Resort really sucks. I would gladly trade Last Resort for one of your Jump abilities. LR is only useful when stacked with a WS and I bet the difference between damage of a LR'ed WS and a non LR'd WS doesn't equal the damage of a single Jump.

Many DRKs feel that Soul Eater is a curse as much as its a blessing. It does good damage, but it also drains 10% of our HP per hit and gains a whole lot of hate which means its instant death if not used carefully or if the tank isn't excellent. DRK's don't have the luxury of Super Jump.

The weapon versatility of DRK's is largely illusory. Although we are A- in Great Sword, after the mid forties it becomes extremely hard to keep two weapon skills maxed. I know very few DRKs who have both Great Sword and Scythe maxed in the high levels.

And our spells don't really make a difference at all. The only spells that are even worth casting are Drain, Aspir, Absorb-DEX, and Absorb-AGI and its not like we cast more than one spell per fight, if that.

We have access to better defensive equipment? Why would you even bring that up? Who cares if a melee damager has good defense? Rangers have some of the worst defense in the game but they can school us both when it comes to damage.

So in conclusion... stop whining, you're class is fine.

[Potsnu]

Sickle Slash (if for some reason you decide to level off spiders) is a counter, not a WS, so using Penta won't charge it, just an FYI.

Is it really? That's nice to know. Yea, I didn't fight spiders too often, maybe during 50-53 when I got Penta Thrust. The reason why I Thought it was a Mob WS was b/c, nearly every single time I did Pentathrust on them, it would use Sickle Slash almost instantly, before I could react and use Super Jump. It would make sense if it was a counter. Hehe I was lead to this impression b/c I have been One shotted a few times right after I penta'ed ^^

Really, one of the main reasons why I chose Drg was knowing the rough road ahead. I wanted to play this job because No other Mmorpg has this class, nor will it in the near future. I understand all the concerns about the lack of viable Skillchains during these levels. However, I assure you, when the game changes yet again for melees at 65+, Drg's are not left in the dust. For those that don't know, Lvl 3 Renkeis have 4 elemental properties in which Blm's can MB off of. Using Lv.3 Light as an example, our WS used to make it, would do roughly 200-300 dmg. However, the Light dmg itself is 1200-1400. Blm than has 4 options to burst off of: Fire, Wind, Thunder, Water (I just woke up, might be wrong heh). This than does another 2200 dmg or so. So really, we're no longer restricted to the dreaded Light/Drk dmg Renkeis. In fact, when you get Skewer at 60, Distortion is not too bad. You can normally do a Skewer --> dancing Edge and throw in Pentas in between before your Thf is ready to go again.

As I said before, the biggest flaw for Drg's and that will hurt us the most will be Undead. You could "try" to squeeze as much exp as you can out of Boyahda and "maybe" get 73 or so there. Than you only have a few spots you could go to ; ; Maybe I'll go back to Kuftal and chain those Dragons for #4/#5.

[struck]

Just be thankful Dragoon didn't turn out like Samurai.

[Weezingpipes]

Last Resort really sucks. I would gladly trade Last Resort for one of your Jump abilities. LR is only useful when stacked with a WS and I bet the difference between damage of a LR'ed WS and a non LR'd WS doesn't equal the damage of a single Jump.

While I don't think Last Resort is anything special outside WS and Berserk is better, its fine, and much better than a jump. Group with a Dragoon and try to notice how shitty that jump damage is, and how inaccurate it is.

Many DRKs feel that Soul Eater is a curse as much as its a blessing. It does good damage, but it also drains 10% of our HP per hit and gains a whole lot of hate which means its instant death if not used carefully or if the tank isn't excellent. DRK's don't have the luxury of Super Jump.

Every good DRK I've grouped with likes the ability and doesn't die using it.

And our spells don't really make a difference at all. The only spells that are even worth casting are Drain, Aspir, Absorb-DEX, and Absorb-AGI and its not like we cast more than one spell per fight, if that.

Just because you don't know how to magic burst, doesn't mean the damage option isn't there none the less. Also Absorb VIT seems useful when I've grouped with a DRK on higher def monsters. The absorbs aren't a massive difference, but generally enough to notice.

We have access to better defensive equipment? Why would you even bring that up? Who cares if a melee damager has good defense? Rangers have some of the worst defense in the game but they can school us both when it comes to damage.

It does matter, because thats one of the penalties of being a Ranger or a Dragoon is your craptastic defensive ability along with equipment. On the odds you do get hit, its nice to have so you aren't as much of a heal sponge. Point being, DRK really don't pay many penalties for their damage output, again a good tank makes any downsides not matter.

[Elusivellama]

* with ideas from Sanguine and Weezingpipes

Right now, at level 41, my wish list is this:

Job traits
1) More accuracy bonus traits, and/or another attack up trait. We have 3 job traits, 1 of which is basically useless for...what...71 levels, as Ayako said, in another post?


---


Job abilities
2) More job abilities. All I do right now is attack, jump, jump. Repeat and rinse. Yawn. Oh yeah, I also put on a light show with my uber 1337 Ancient Circle ability.

Ancient Circle (improved): Make it effective against lizards and birds also. Increase that timer, too...

Sic: Make the wyvern shoot out a breath attack that the monster is weak to. 2 min timer, or something.

Call Wyvern: Calls the wyvern. 30 min timer. Duration is the same as it is now.


---


Jump attacks
3) Unnerf the jump, please. It misses so much, and doesn't do much more dmg than a regular hit. I like that one suggestion where the jump keeps you in the air for a number of seconds, in return for 100% hit rate and damage modifier, and will borrow it for my suggestions ^^

Jump: 2 seconds airtime. 100% hit rate, 2x damage (including criticals). Regains 15% tp. 90 second timer. Gains some hate.

High Jump: 5 seconds airtime, 100% hit rate, 3x damage (including any criticals). Regains 18% tp. Chance of stunning the monster (come on, you're landing on the monster's head, driving your spear into its brain). 180 second timer. Gains more hate than Jump.

Evasion Jump: 3 seconds airtime, no damage, makes you invulnerable. Sheds some hate. 90 second timer.

High evasion jump: 6 seconds airtime, no damage, makes you invulnerable. Sheds more hate than Evasion jump. 180 second timer.

Super high jump: As I don't have the current SHJ, I'll make some assumptions here. 10 seconds air time, sheds all hate while you're in the air, makes you invulnerable. Gives you the option of attacking, or simply landing without doing any damage. The latter is what the SHJ should be right now. The former lets you do a 4x damage attack, regains 22% tp, chance of stunning but gains the same hate as a sneak + trick + viperbite. 5 min timer.



---


Wyvern gains tp for you
4)Wyvern gains tp for you. I like this idea...maybe 2% or 3% for every hit, and 5% for a breath attack.


---


New 2hr ability
5) Revamp 2 hr ability.

2hr suggestion: Chainjump. Just like RDM ability, except for jumps. The airtime remains the same, but the timers are removed. The evasion jumps cannot be used, and super high jump can only do damage (without the option of shedding hate). In addition, for 1 minute after Chainjump runs out, NO jumps can be used.

This means the dragoon can pump out a lot of damage by doing continual jumps, remaining relatively safe, but after the 2hr is finished and the monster is not dead, the hate will be built up so much that he/she might die.

Maybe also make the wyvern shoot its breath attack at every jump in the 2hr..


What do you guys think? Comments are appreciated, but constructive please....I'm really interested in seeing how the DRG class can be improved.

[NewMorning]

All your ideas sound great... that is what dragoon should of been.

the only addition would be plants the dragon could eat (or anything really) to cure health and poisons.

also commands to let him heal while you stand so you dont lose TP and commands to make the dragon stay and attack.. you could then go back a little and make the dragon stay/heal while you go fight and then you could make it attack when you wanted to.

with these in addition to the things you said i think that what make dragoon the job it should be.

[Zafron]

I am new to the game and i have read alot of conflicting accounts of the merits of DRG, DRGvDRK, etc etc etc.

personally i think the concept of DRG is cool and i'm sure i will enjoy playing it, and although i am no FFXI vet i strongly suspect job selection is meaningless in terms of in-game success. My experience in MMO games has been quite consistent:

player skill > equipment > everything else

just my view on things.

[DrSerpico]

Just so tired.

I don't want to be an asswad, but you guys should be a bit more reasonable. Reading your suggestions I concur that you want 23 buffs and maybe a semi-drawback for your job.

We ALL want that. I agree with toning the jumps up a bit, but the suggestions you bring to the table are just overpowered. WAY overpowered. You'd be invincible and do more damage, please do that for all jobs?

Really, to draw this further, why don't we just implement a /godmode switch for drg? No, that was uncalled for, sorry.

I think that drg may need a little tweak upwards, but that's debateable. And ppl that are "gosu" and think "this and that really suck at high levels", come on! They don't suck, the game gets HARDER! As it SHOULD!

Choosing a job is about indulging your self in your personal preference, and working around your weaknesses, emphazising your strenghts and benefitting you party the most. This is well doable for almost all jobs and races, albeit some less than others.

This boils down more to the person itself than the job, imho. A flexible person will have an easier time finding their special niche in this game. I think we all need to play a bit longer and through more aspects of the game before judging.

And for some high levels, maybe open your mind to the possibility that it's more fun to NOT be overpowered and fly through mobs nonstop, but instead to WORK for what you get.

I think that's all from me for now.
Thx for reading. Bye.

[sonova]

i fail to see how a critique by a lvl 25 mnk/thf can be viewed as anything but comical

[Dredge]

Originally posted by sonova
i fail to see how a critique by a lvl 25 mnk/thf can be viewed as anything but comical

She's right. You guys sound like a bunch of whiney crybabies. Don't turn this game into the nerf fest that is EQ.

I mean really, if DRGs suck so bad than how is it possible that they even get picked in pick-up groups? According to this topic DRGs can't do anything except stand around with their lances up thier asses, which doesn't really hold up to the in-game reality since DRGs get picked over DRKs, MNKs and SAMs quite often. Its just a simple case of the grass always being greener. I especially like the part in an earlier post "DRGs should really be outdamaging DRKs." Well then why would anyone pick a DRK for a group? Our better defense? Hahaha. You kids make me life.

The only real problem you guys have is the lack of pole-arm friendly mobs at higher levels but that will most likely be fixed with the March update.

[SamuiFuyu]

All those ideas are great. I'd love to see Jump do something more then kick up dust.
But it's really one of those things where, if you like it enough. You'll stick with it through thick, and thin.

[sonova]

wtf she?