Why People say Dragoon suck???

[Draco Dagon]

Originally posted by lionx
Off topic a bit but...WHMs arent more important than other mage jobs...we just excel at healing a little bit better than say the RDM. But RDMs can heal pretty fine definitely. Not to mention BLM/WHM and SMN/WHMs as well...they can heal pretty well...just not as well as RDM...same concept. Those mage jobs can do a good job too. Although i must say that Refeshing jobs are a much more different story :x

You can have a RDM BLM and BRD backline and have extremely fast exp, you just sacrifice the things a WHM can bring is all. Same with a WHM BLM RDM...you just sacrifice what a BRD and SMN can do....its just basically swapping in different mage jobs for different mage roles for different pros and cons...the only thing i feel a little little limited on is refreshing jobs. Doing WHM/BRD when theres no refresher(or when i feel up to it) isnt that bad but again its just another pro/con thing :/

EDIT: I guess it also the same for melee now that i think about it...change a PLD for a NIN and you can have faster but riskier exp (depends on mob though). Replace a RNG for a DRK and instead of more raw damage its more controlled and you get DRK Stun and magic...although some jobs have more impact than others when replaced.

Meh, you just had to go and rebute my statement! J/K.

But seriously, I do support the white mage to be a better and defintly more important job, but alas my max job is at lvl 32. Next to dragoon, it is my favorite job and was very easy for myself (many those I've partied with who had higher-lvl'd jobs have said I made it look so easily, and many more became white mage after seeing me).

[Elusivellama]

Want the know the real reason why DRG is bashed so much?

It's not because they suck in EXP parties. As a matter of fact, DRGs can put the hurt on in EXP parties. Between their wyverns and themselves, they are a source of damage over time that just keeps on giving (like a monk). Never mind that their WS are weak, they are primarily damage over time and they excel at this (unless fighting bones).

It's during end game activities that DRG falls flat on its face. They can't Stun like DRK, so they're bumped lower on the priority list. They can't boost chiblast and do 4 digit damage like monks. They can't match RNG damage output, or shadowbind, or barrage, or widescan, or do damage during kiting maneuvers, or generate TP nearly as fast, or do damage from out of AOE range.

In fact, they just end up doing Spirits Within. Then they quit going to sky and start levelling up RNG, tank job, or a mage job.

[DakAttack]

Maybe if they would give us our edge back as they hinted to in the flag quest we'd be better. We're Dragoons, not Wyveerns. Wyvern is cool and all but give us an upgrade or something.

[LordBiGGs]

yea, its definitely the end game that ruins drg. as far as the exp pt conversation above goes, i'm a pld and my favorite party is with brd, rdm healers. brd keeping me with double ballad and rdm refreshing me. i have so much mp i can just main heal.

[Relmo]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

i dont know but, evrey pt with dragon's i got bad exp... and we cant chain 5 , and i avoid exp with dragon on my rng because all dragon's ws eww weak and no good renkei with my rng, aslo dont like pt with dragon's on my blm .

dragon's gimp because all ws weak and all job's do better than dragon's so why invite DRG to exp pt? when there's SAM/MNK/WAR/THF/DRK/RNG seeking ?


i feel sorry for all dragon's , :thumb: i'm with you guys SE should fix you,
dunno if DRG seeking for merit point too many job seeking between 73~75 , i heard DRG seek for day's and week's to get pt :depress: that's really sad ,why you guys just lvl another job?

[fuz]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

I dunno, but i always hear rangers say 'if we're so overpowered, why don't you level up a ranger?'

I guess that's the train of thought that NA's have. I always love to experiment so I've never denied a class into a PT, even if I hated them in the past--because just maybe I was wrong to think so for some reason. E.g. take thf; they normally suck for endgame exp, but properly equiped with ranged weaponry and acc, they do very well.

[Sobish]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

I am so sick of hearing people say that dragoon suck, I myself am a dragoon and nobody ever tells me im a bad dragoon, currently lvl 51 I pt in various places and maybe miss once or twice a battle and do very good dmg not to mention Penta thrust (usualy 500-1253) so if you say all dragoon suck then please /tell Sobish on cerberus server so i can show you how wrong you are

[Icemage]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

I am so sick of hearing people say that dragoon suck, I myself am a dragoon and nobody ever tells me im a bad dragoon, currently lvl 51 I pt in various places and maybe miss once or twice a battle and do very good dmg not to mention Penta thrust (usualy 500-1253) so if you say all dragoon suck then please /tell Sobish on cerberus server so i can show you how wrong you are

Dragoons are fine in XP parties up through 65 or so, but saying that Penta Thrust is an awesome WS simply because it puts up comparable or better numbers to other WS at that level is incredibly short-sighted. The reason most people don't like Dragoons at higher levels (NOTE THE EMPHASIS HERE) is that Penta Thrust has terrible skillchain properties, and the remainder of Dragoon WS don't measure up at higher levels (Skewer, Impulse Drive, Wheeling Thrust are all lower max damage than most of their counterparts for other jobs).

The only time Gravitation (which is the only viable skillchain that Penta can form) is useful is the handful of levels where you're fighting Torama in Labyrinth of Onzozo, roughly 60-64. After that, it's totally useless.

End-game activities are covered in previous posts on this thread, but brief summary: No one needs/wants a dragoon for anything end-game. Period.


Icemage

[Kafeen]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

I am so sick of hearing people say that dragoon suck, I myself am a dragoon and nobody ever tells me im a bad dragoon, currently lvl 51 I pt in various places and maybe miss once or twice a battle and do very good dmg not to mention Penta thrust (usualy 500-1253) so if you say all dragoon suck then please /tell Sobish on cerberus server so i can show you how wrong you are

Somehow I doubt that damage is against an IT mob in an exp party. I'd love to be proved wrong but even with my DRG at 55 I've never come close to 1200+ damage with Penta Thrust, especially on an IT mob.

Doesn't mean DRG suck thouygh, I've matched RNGs in their 50's , then only time I started to fall behind was on WS damage once they got Sidewinder or Slug Shot and I got Vorpal Thrust.

[csBahamut]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

Dragoons are fine in XP parties up through 65 or so, but saying that Penta Thrust is an awesome WS simply because it puts up comparable or better numbers to other WS at that level is incredibly short-sighted. The reason most people don't like Dragoons at higher levels (NOTE THE EMPHASIS HERE) is that Penta Thrust has terrible skillchain properties, and the remainder of Dragoon WS don't measure up at higher levels (Skewer, Impulse Drive, Wheeling Thrust are all lower max damage than most of their counterparts for other jobs).

The only time Gravitation (which is the only viable skillchain that Penta can form) is useful is the handful of levels where you're fighting Torama in Labyrinth of Onzozo, roughly 60-64. After that, it's totally useless.

End-game activities are covered in previous posts on this thread, but brief summary: No one needs/wants a dragoon for anything end-game. Period.


Icemage

Dragon's only lack strong WS 65+, but that's not really an issue. Dragoon's have a much better DoT to make up for it. In terms of overall damage in exp parties, Dragoons deal just as much total damage as any melee job. If they aren't, then the Dragoon doesn't really know how to play their job.

As for endgame, our LS has just as many Dragoons as any other job. Again, they don't put out the WS numbers that some jobs can, but you can't say they're useless against gods. My brother is always one of the top 3 melee damage dealers on the gods(excluding Kirin). He's always in on Kirin fights now too. He uses SAM or THF sub and opens/closes light with our Dark Knight. With the MB's that BLMs get off, Kirin dies REALLY fast. Who needs RNGs(of course, 3-4 RNGs to counter Kirin's regen is handy)? And you can't complain about TP gain. They had TP so fast that they were waiting on Kirin to stop and cast a spell more often than waiting on TP. That was with only 4 people making 2 SC's for MB's.

Don't discount Dragoon's power in endgame. People just haven't been able to see past their own misconceptions of the job. Remember how SAM was thought to suck back in the day as well? Well guess what, people now know that SAM is just as good as any other melee. People have even found that SAM/RNG is good on Kirin and gods. Not as good as Rangers, but better than just meleeing.

[Icemage]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

Don't discount Dragoon's power in endgame. People just haven't been able to see past their own misconceptions of the job. Remember how SAM was thought to suck back in the day as well? Well guess what, people now know that SAM is just as good as any other melee. People have even found that SAM/RNG is good on Kirin and gods. Not as good as Rangers, but better than just meleeing.

Pertinent point boldfaced for emphasis. Nobody "just melees" in HNM fights because its inefficient and often suicidal.

There is no particular reason to use a dragoon instead of any other melee that can open/close a skillchain end-game.

Wheeling Thrust is overshadowed by the stronger, equally (or more) accurate Arching Arrow/Empyrial Arrow/Heavy Shot from rangers, and lacks the power (and TP on demand) of Tachi: Kasha, if you want to make Light skillchains.

Impulse Drive is a pale shadow of the damage that Asuran Fists deals, if you want to open/close Dark. Certainly no stronger than Evisceration from a THF, and that's not saying much.

Granted, if you don't happen to have monks, samurai, or rangers around to make these skillchains, you could always use a dragoon... but how many good HNMLS do you see without the above jobs?

Yes, you CAN use a dragoon for these things, but it is neither necessary, nor especially desirable to do so.

Other melee jobs bring better tools to fights:

Rangers can Shadowbind, use Utsusemi when they pull aggro, and also run faster than dragoons with either crimson greaves or strider boots in kiting fights like Kirin, not to mention they can WS from a much longer range.

Samurai can /THF without giving up their TP gain, so if you use them for SC, they will always land their WS. If a DRG uses /THF, they're stuck with no way to gain TP besides inefficient methods like Opo Necklace or Icarus Wing, and if they use /SAM, they're still limited to 1 WS every 2 minutes due to only 60% TP gain on /SAM Meditate, and are prone to missing their WS without Sneak Attack.

Monks can Chi Blast for more damage than any WS, do it at range, and never miss (not to mention they're a lot less fragile than dragoons if they do happen to pull aggro).

WAR deal reasonable damage, and can afford to sub NIN to keep themselves out of trouble (and even tank if the circumstances are right).

DRG brings zero intangibles to end-game fights, unless you you'd like to argue that being able to High Jump/Super Jump away from trouble is useful on the off chance that they ever get aggro (experienced HNMers will understand the sarcasm here).


Icemage

[csBahamut]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

There is no particular reason to use a dragoon instead of any other melee that can open/close a skillchain end-game.

And there's no reason to use any other melee over DRG. All depends on your LS's strategy.

Wheeling Thrust is overshadowed by the stronger, equally (or more) accurate Arching Arrow/Empyrial Arrow/Heavy Shot from rangers, and lacks the power (and TP on demand) of Tachi: Kasha, if you want to make Light skillchains.

Though, Wheeling Thrust doesn't depend on SA to make it hit for big numbers. All by itself, no buffs, Wheel Thrust can break 200 damage just fine. I'm not sure how other WSes compare unbuffed(no berserk, Last resort, soul eater, SA, etc.). My guess is that they're all about the same.

Accuracy hasn't been an issue for us. Our RNGs prefer to spam Sidewinder/Slugshot as soon as they get TP anyways, to make full use of their TP. Waiting for an SC means they have to sit on TP, and slow down their damage output.

As for TP being "on demand", that's not really an issue when you're waiting on Kirin to stop and cast so you can make an SC.

Impulse Drive is a pale shadow of the damage that Asuran Fists deals, if you want to open/close Dark. Certainly no stronger than Evisceration from a THF, and that's not saying much.

Pretty much every Darkness opener sucks on HNMs. Not much you can do about it.

Granted, if you don't happen to have monks, samurai, or rangers around to make these skillchains, you could always use a dragoon... but how many good HNMLS do you see without the above jobs?

Yes, you CAN use a dragoon for these things, but it is neither necessary, nor especially desirable to do so.

The jobs don't matter so much as the skill of the players, their equipment, and their ability to work as a team. If you can't do any of that, the no job can make you worthy of being in an HNM LS. People simply think DRG sucks, so no LSes really want to even give them a chance. The common belief is that DRGs suck, so they won't even consider that they can be good, just like any other melee.

DRG brings zero intangibles to end-game fights, unless you you'd like to argue that being able to High Jump/Super Jump away from trouble is useful on the off chance that they ever get aggro (experienced HNMers will understand the sarcasm here).

DRGs do lack any direct additional benifits other than plain damage. Does that mean that they can't do anything? Nope. Not stealing hate is an advantage in itself. All HNMers should know that the less damage people take, the better. There is the wyvern, but it's contribution is iffy. It can add 1000 damage or more to the DRG's total damage output. Whether or not people consider it an advantage is up to the individual LSes.

There's a difference between being 97% efficiency with DRGs, and 99% efficient using all RNGs. It's called fun. If we can beat Kirin in an hour with using DRGs and any other jobs, then there's no reason to leave a DRG out. Of course, you don't have to use them either. If all you want is super fast fights to get the drops, then you're missing out on the fun of fighting. There's more to HNM fights than just the drops.

*Edit*
I forgot to add that the SA WS from DRKs and SAMs isn't always the best way to go as well. If they only do SA + WS(since there's not always time to add in TA as well), those jobs tend to grab hate. Same with the MNKs Chi blasting. How helpful is it if those people keep grabbing hate and dying? They're just an MP drain then. Also have to waste time switching in someone new, if you even have the people. The MNKs should be able to get away, but the /THF DRKs and SAmM aren't so lucky. All Kirin has to do is bind them with a Tail Smash(or whatever), then do Deadly Hold. There, dead DRK or SAM that needs raised. If they live, then a ton of MP was dumped into healing them. If healers spend too much MP too fast, then they'll lack the MP to recover from a bad Stonega IV or Astral Flow. The healers will also need to log and reset hate more often, thus requiring more time with less healers for those fluke situations.

[Icemage]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

There's 2 players with level 75 DRG levelled in my HNMLS, and neither one ever chooses to come to HNM activities with DRG. It's not that we don't have the option of using DRGs. There is just no reason to have them be inefficient melees when there are simply better options.

It's all about flexibility, and DRG has none at end-game. You say Wheeling Thrust is 200+ guaranteed damage against normal enemies and I agree, but SA Tachi: Kasha scores at least middle 3-digit to occasionally 4-digit damage on enemies that don't have absurd physical defense (Aspidochelone, but then, all melees are equally pointless there other than basic skillchain for peanuts damage to set up magic bursts, and not even Wheeling Thrust will save you there; at that point it comes down to TP gain and accuracy).

Kirin is all well and good (I suppose), but it isn't the only thing you fight at end-game. Bring a dragoon to a ground King fight like Nidhogg and see how far you get. Yes, you "can"... but would you want to if that player has any other job to choose from? Not. Likely. It isn't that you can't make the job work in HNM situations, we've done it before, back when one of our DRGs only had that job levelled, and you can improvise, to be sure; nevertheless, DRG is extremely unidimensional and limited in application, from long personal experience.

I won't even go into why you would factor a wyvern into any damage calculation on HNMs. Pretty much anything except NQ Behemoth will KO a wyvern in 1-3 AoEs, and it'd be a miracle to see it survive long enough to deal 1000 damage on, say, Fafnir or King Behemoth.

As for the pulling hate issue, any time you've got people worried about dying at an NM fight, you're already in trouble. Bring enough healers to cover your expected losses for your chosen strategy, or don't come at all.


Icemage

[Kafeen]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

200+ damage from Wheeling Thrust just shows how much DRG get screwed over later on. I can do that much damage from a Double Thrust.

[dbuman]

Re: Why People say Dragoon suck???

I, personally, have seen a large number of samurai, rangers, and warriors that could not compare to the damage output ive done in the past week. Ive been drg/thf ever since lv 30 and never once has anyone complained about me. With SA Double Thrust i do 200+ damage to crawlers in CN, and outdamage the SAM every time. I use Meat Jerky because its cheap and it works. I have battle gloves... yes those... at lv 37 and they are wonderful. 2 balance rings and 2 Beetle+1 earrings make DRG/THF all the worthwhile. Spike necklace helps too. My average damage with DRG at 37 is about 55 to Crawlers. The rangers back when i was lv 25, kept using crossbows and only dealt maybe 30-40 damage while i was whooping the mandies with 50+ dmg. DRG should never be thought as a bad DD. I for one do equal damage with my Friend Sangheilli, DRK 36, when we use different foods. His attack maybe 175 ave without everything, and mine about 150, but some how we output nearly the same damage. I can only assume that people are propelled by the community to say DRG suck... I havent played drg before the Penta Thrust Nerf, but even with that, DRG do way more damage than a petty samurai for the simple fact that... DRG with the right gear, gains TP faster than most jobs. i get about 12-14 tp per hit, and i hit almost every time, thats 100+ tp in 30 seconds just about. And what is the Delay on Meditate? thank you and have a nice day. This is the wonderful once a life time comment by your fellow DRG Suragata of Server Quetzalcoatl. ^.-