Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

[tdh]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

As much as I'm excited about this, I still have to ask why.

Since the job adjustments so many things have been adjusted for DRKs. We've gotten so much S-E love it's crazy. We were kinda busted and under appreciated but we got new toys, we've been doing much better, and the other DRKs I've talked to and I are happy.

Absorb-TP
2 second Absorb Casts
Parade Gorget & Refresh Sanction
/SAM for Acc, Haste, & STR (I know, this was a SAM update, but this is helpful for 2handers everywhere.)
A few useful Category 2 Merits

All that love, and so many other jobs are feeling neglected. PUP's C rated H2H, no Merits for BLU, COR, PUP, BRD still has a C rated skill in Singing, Wind & String, and the list goes on. I'm grateful for the new spells, and as a DRK63, I can actually play with one of them, but just seems like this effort could have been put towards another job.

And I hope Drain II RAWKS! Drain seemingly ignores MAB, and the most I've ever Drained was 235HP from a MB on a DC mob in a Skill Up. I can Drain 200HP from time to time, but having to wait 60 seconds after a weak 50HP Drain can now be followed up by a more Powerful Drain II? Provided the /recast is up. I'm curious why no Aspir II though. Probably since there aren't enough mobs out there that have MP we can steal.

Thanks S-E, but why?

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

On the surface..... you don't have to sub THF anymore and now can sub WAR or SAM and use LR/SE and WS and be able to defend yourself better? It seems like spells to assist with your JA's. Sorry, I could be shortsighted.

[tdh]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

I don't think this is so much going to save us from the hate we generate. Last party I had I went /WAR as the NIN's request. I died 5 times, only 1 of which I'll blame on myself. (Decided to Souleater Guillotine when I was 100EXP from leveling, and thought I could kill the mob. Well it's kinda hard to shed 1200dmg hate on top of all my other hate when the NIN's dropping 300dmg Blade: Jins.)

Now they reduced the casting time of the Absorb spells, and while Drain is basically Absorb-HP, it's casting time went unchanged. With Stun, and Weapon Bash, I couldn't get off a Drain to possibly save my hide or kill the mob. Nevermind the additional hate Stun & Weapon Bash generates. Now if Drain II has a really quick casting time, this might save us big time, then we can try and get off a Drain afterwards.

The other issue is Drain II can be used to boost your HP. I wonder how powerful it will really be in regard to restoring HP. Or will it just be something you use when your HP is high, and you want an extra 200HP for your Souleater.

Another thing to consider is Dark Magic is so fickle. One minute you'll get a 200HP Drain, the next minute a 30HP Drain. 7MP Aspir followed by an 83MP Aspir. Mobs seemingly weak to Dark Magic suddenly resist Absorb-AGI. So if I can pull 200HP from a Drain, and then 400 from a Drain II I'll be sit'n pretty after a Souleater WS, but I'm not holding my breath for that!

Even at Lv.71, I doubt Dread Spikes will be enough to keep us alive. If it's anything like Ice/Blaze/Shock Spikes, 18HP at max Drained isn't going to keep us alive with all the DEF we give up for Acc & Atk. 18HP Drained isn't going to be a stop gap when I'm taking 180dmg a pop.

[Lmnop]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

naysay much, tdh?

PUP may have lots of issues. But damnit, they've been in the game a matter of months. DRK's been unloved for the better part of 3 years. The only time they ever had to shine was levels 66-71 when they were closing famous light SCs for big damage. But that was 5 levels of their life, and those days don't even exist anymore.

You know what else is funny? There was so much DRG hate in the community, that half the community was inviting them over emoDRKs to prove how much they don't hate DRGs. No, the spells are great.

The wording states, doesn't suggest, that Drain 2 will have the potential to raise max HP. It also states right there in the text that it has a 3 minute recast and a 1min duration. Regardless of casting time, it'll be great. The idea will be to use it, and fall back on Drain 1 while it's down. Not the other way around.

Dread Spikes also states in the text that it will absorb a certain percentage of the damage inflicted. So that right there should guarantee that it doesn't drain for like 10 damage. but even if it is -10%, it's enough to at least stem the tide. 10% is a Defending Ring, for crying out loud. To answer what Zempten was saying:

Let's say Dread Spikes can only heal so much... say 50% of your max HP. So if you have 1000 Max HP, you cast Dread Spikes for a chance to heal back 500 (which equates to avoiding 500 damage).

The spell has a 1 minute duration, so regardless of how much you get hit for, you're gonna lose it after 1 minute. BUT, let's say that you used this spell right before six orcs decided to use Hundred Fists on you. Every hit is for 100 damage, and you absorb 10 (if we assume 10% of damage as before). You get hit 50 times in 35 seconds (you have like 18 WHMs Cure bombing you, but since your damage is so leet, they can't pull hate). Even though you have 25 seconds remaining on Dread Spikes, you've been hit enough to prevent 500 damage. Thus, the spell ends prematurely.

It really isn't much different than Stoneskin, in the scheme of things.


------

Drks are getting a very indirect update to their Scythes: No reason to sub THF. I'm now to the point that I simply won't invite DRKs if they're seeking as /thf and don't have a comment suggesting otherwise. /Sam is the new. Adapt or quit. Not to say I don't like /thf for certain things. But like war/thf, it doesn't have a place in high paced parties. And /war is still in-effing-credible, just really need a good tank. e.e Which brings us back to these spells. If they're good enough, they may allow a drk to sub war. I'd kinda doubt it though.

But yes, if you're not subbing thf, you typically don't have much desire to use GS. So yeah, there's your Scythe love.

BRD don't need higher skills. You realize that if they had A rank skills, they'd have as high a chance to land 50% slow effect as a RDM would have to land their gimp 20-35% slow?

Remember DRKs, turn off Hasso/Seigan before using these spells. The last thing you need on a 3 min recast is +50% (or whatever) recast tacked on.

[tdh]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

naysay much, tdh?
PUP may have lots of issues. But damnit, they've been in the game a matter of months. DRK's been unloved for the better part of 3 years. The only time they ever had to shine was levels 66-71 when they were closing famous light SCs for big damage. But that was 5 levels of their life, and those days don't even exist anymore.

Not an issue of naysaying, merely another job could have used the adjustment more.

I've noticed the increase attention I've gained as DRK, and as much as I'm enjoying the new found attention/recognition, DRK has now received something new in the last 3 updates. Focus some of that attention on another job that at this point could use more attention then the Vampires.

The wording states, doesn't suggest, that Drain 2 will have the potential to raise max HP. It also states right there in the text that it has a 3 minute recast and a 1min duration. Regardless of casting time, it'll be great. The idea will be to use it, and fall back on Drain 1 while it's down. Not the other way around.

That's exactly what it says.

- Drain II (Lv.62 Recast Time: 3 minutes Duration: 1 minute)
Steals an enemy's HP, potentially increasing maximum HP. Ineffective against undead.

HP drained that exceeds the amount necessary to fully heal the dark knight will temporarily boost maximum HP. As well as healing the dark knight, this spell should prove useful in providing extra HP for abilities such as Souleater.

So use Drain II when you're near max HP for some EXP HP, then Souleater Guillotine for more damage. However, depending on how powerful the spell is, this might be a waist. Say it Drains 400HP, it might be better served to use it after Souleater than before hand.

I wasn't saying that Drain II should be a fall back option, or doubting that it won't be pretty awesome. This however does not negate the way Drain seems to work now. Cap'd skill, Darksday, mob weak Vs. Dark Magic and when I need 200HP I get at 30HP Drain. Dark Magic just doesn't work like Elemental does where you can pretty much tell if you received a partial, 50%, or full resist. With Dark magic it's all over the board. So you just lost 700HP and Drain decides to punk you with 30HP. Do you wait for the WHM to wake up and "holy sheet, Cure V" and complain about Souleater, or do you hope Drain II grabs 400HP?

Of course we don't know how it's going to behave yet, so pretty much anything we state here is speculation. I just know it's going to suck to have a 3 min /recast and you only gain 50HP back.

Dread Spikes also states in the text that it will absorb a certain percentage of the damage inflicted. So that right there should guarantee that it doesn't drain for like 10 damage. but even if it is -10%, it's enough to at least stem the tide. 10% is a Defending Ring, for crying out loud. To answer what Zempten was saying:

Let's say Dread Spikes can only heal so much... say 50% of your max HP. So if you have 1000 Max HP, you cast Dread Spikes for a chance to heal back 500 (which equates to avoiding 500 damage).
The spell has a 1 minute duration, so regardless of how much you get hit for, you're gonna lose it after 1 minute. BUT, let's say that you used this spell right before six orcs decided to use Hundred Fists on you. Every hit is for 100 damage, and you absorb 10 (if we assume 10% of damage as before). You get hit 50 times in 35 seconds (you have like 18 WHMs Cure bombing you, but since your damage is so leet, they can't pull hate). Even though you have 25 seconds remaining on Dread Spikes, you've been hit enough to prevent 500 damage. Thus, the spell ends prematurely.

It really isn't much different than Stoneskin, in the scheme of things.

Dread Spikes appear to be a lot like Stoneskin, but it's not going to allow us to tank like somebody in another thread suggested, and I don't think it's going to make us any more daring when it comes to our hate generation.

Drks are getting a very indirect update to their Scythes: No reason to sub THF. I'm now to the point that I simply won't invite DRKs if they're seeking as /thf and don't have a comment suggesting otherwise. /Sam is the new. Adapt or quit. Not to say I don't like /thf for certain things. But like war/thf, it doesn't have a place in high paced parties. And /war is still in-effing-credible, just really need a good tank. e.e Which brings us back to these spells. If they're good enough, they may allow a drk to sub war. I'd kinda doubt it though.

I have access to all subjobs for my current level, and when I'm seeking I list /WAR, /THF, /SAM, and /NIN in my /seacom. But I've yet to see a DRK/SAM in an EXP party, and nobody's asked me do so either - I've only ever gone DRK/SAM for Assaults myself. Seems a little harsh that you won't invite a DRK who doesn't want to get his head pecked off, but if you're building a party and looking for something specific do what you feel is best for the group. Just can't say I agree with your "adapt or quit" view point about DRK/SAM. Does this apply to DRG/SAM as well?

BRD don't need higher skills. You realize that if they had A rank skills, they'd have as high a chance to land 50% slow effect as a RDM would have to land their gimp 20-35% slow?

Which I'd have no issue with as long as they'd allow Hojo & Slow to stack. But having BRDs have Lullaby resisted is just retarded.

[Susurrus]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

I wonder how long until we see people running around with 10,000 HP after Drain II spamming (also wondering if it sticks through zoning...)

[Armando]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

There's no way to spam Drain II. Even at the 50% recast reduction cap, its recast will be longer than the HP boost effect lasts, and it's pretty obvious it'll be too high a level for RDMs to sub.

[tdh]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

Well, after 3hrs plus of updating, and the update crapping out on me 3 times, I logged in to pick up Drain II and test it out a tad. (It's in the same place you buy Absorb-TP, but that didn't stop people from selling 1 for 100k already. 30k @ the vendor.)

Animation looks pretty sweet. As if you're casting three Drains at the same time. On Too Weak mobs I've managed to Drain back AT LEAST 235HP each time. With AF Helm (Dark Magic +5) and Dark Staff I managed a 311HP Drain.

Previously I've never done more than 250, and that was on an EP Crab on a Magic Burst. I suspect the Dark Earring and the Dark Torque are about to go up in price. Provided any of them ever get in stock at the AH! I've been looking for a Dark Torque for a few weeks now.

[Tisaragi]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

Dread Spikes unless it gets heavy resist rates on VT-IT mobs I can see it keeping a drk alive after a souleater if it is placed correctly. While playing with the spikes fighting lesser colibri they drained back the same number I was getting hit for all but one time when it seemed to be about half the dmg I had taken. Also the duration was at least 33% but its prob more like 50-75% max hp(not sure wasn't really adding it up that close). Drain 2's cast time isn't any faster than Drain's and it seems to be harder for the mob to resist the spell to the point where you get 2hp back for you cast. On lesser colibri I was draining 300+ hp each cast. Also even if you could cast drain2 before the effect was lost it would work just like the abs spells and replace the old buff with the new one this includes the hp buff gained from items such as giants drink.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

Anyone finding yet how the new spells are helping stem the tide of hate for SE LR WS?

[Tyros]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

I don't think it decreases the hate, but rather, the effect of the spikes creates 0 hate of it's own.

Anyways, I bought these and promptly set up killing Lesser Colibri in woodlands last night. Normally, I would go DRK/WHM and burn through almost all of my mp per fight, rest, repeat. I went through around 12 fights nonstop last night, alternating drain 2 and dread spikes each fight and getting on average around 44 exp a kill. Getting around 500 EXP in about 40 min solo was welcome, and I didn't have to use any of my whm spells. I think I will try again tonight /war for faster kills and a bit more defense.

Now, Dread Spikes has been tested to return full damage taken on most everything tested. Half returns have been reported on dark based and magic resistant monsters. Also, Dread Spikes seem capped at 1 minute duration OR 50% of your max HP returned. All in all, it seems to be a license to freely use Last Resort or Berserk while soloing since the spikes negate damage taken.

As for Drain II, I was averaging 350 per use with 299 Dark Magic Skill. Drain with the same set up was between 150-250ish.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

That's awesome news. Helpful for when you want to go full JA's WS on DRK, which is what SE intended I assume and what alot of ppl were looking forward to.

Thanks.

[Lmnop]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

good news all around. =) There's a glitch reported on KI that's making DRK invincible but it'll be nerfed quickly. Basically, Hasso is making the new spells have almost no /recast.

If you have 1300 HP, and you get hit by exp mobs for 200/pop. Then Dread Spikes will keep you ok MP-free for 3-4 swings. That magic Utsusemi number again. Flash negates 2-3, Utsu's are 3-4, blinks are 2-3, Seigan is typically 3-4... and now Dread Spikes 3-4. Trendy.

Tdh: I don't invite Drk/thfs because I want to prove that Drks are good. When I invite a Drk to a rdm + brd party, I want that Drk to give a good impression. And honestly, the drks that only sub thf never give that impression. I'd like to think that I'm saving that bard from thinking ALL drks suck by not inviting the ones that I know won't keep up. And yes, I feel roughly the same about drgs (I'll invite drg/wars more than I would drk/wars, but i'm less apt to invite a drg/thf than I am a drk/thf). HOWEVER---------------------> with Dread Spikes/ Drain 2, a Drk/War can probably survive just fine these days. And a Drk/thf too, but with Absorb-TP, I still think SA just slows them down.

The biggest problem I see with these spells is that you'd want to use them both prior to activating Souleater. This adds 2 new huge hate spikes onto your DRK to further exacerbate the SE hate problem. Still, the whole "I'm better than you" damage that will come from this will be very nice. I just realized how much I want to party with a Drk+Blu so the Blu can give the Drk Diamondhide.

[Tyros]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

Ok, another test. Last night I went to the tree with a couple whm friends to skill on Steelshells. It appears that dread spikes is affected heavily by shell effects.

Often, I would use Drain 2 and Dread Spikes at the beginning of a fight, but on the off chance that I waited, I would notice the spells would be HALF effective after the crabs would use Bubble Curtain.

Example:

Before Bubble Curtain: 350ish drain 2s on DC/EM crabs, and full return on hits with Dread Spikes up (35 damage, 35 absorbed etc)

After Bubble Curtain: 160-180 drain 2s on DC/EM crabs, and HALF return on hits with dread spikes up (35 damage, 17 absorbed etc).

Still nice.

[Lmnop]

Re: Drain 2 & Dread Spikes

DRKs beware: Min/maxing below

Drks are now more like RDMs. The higher your max HP at time of casting Dread Spikes, the more effective it will be. This means that Drain II will actually buff your Dread Spikes as higher max HP=higher Dread threshold.

Something that needs tested: If you equip on lots of +HP for the cast, will it set the HP amount in stone at that time? I.e. would you then be able to change out of HP gear into say... dual Astral Rings (just because) but keep the HP limit? I'd assume so since Phalanx figures DR based off of Enhancing magic at time of casting only. And Stoneskin is the same way - Enhancing and MND at casting time only.

If so, then a good DRK will want to carry around some +HP gear for their casts. And of course, they could start their build early just to buff up Souleater.