sword/spell dark knight?

[Celeal]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

*a bit off topic*

Since you mentioned leveling war to 37~ and have a feeling of unable to use Beserk to the full extend while leveling DRK/WAR, my suggestion is:

If you have a chance, try to perfect war/thf as DD from level 30 to 37, with capped G.Axe. Not only try to deal the most damage, but also try to take the minimum damage (avoid death, downtime, mp sink, etc). It should give you a taste of lvl 60 DRK before your DRK reach level 60

The key is timing. Focus on how to decrease the duration of each battle without causing downtime. A well timing of spike damage, or DoT boost, or nerf (cancel JA or swap in defensive gear), is the 1st priority. No need to focus heavily of parser's number at this moment. Once you take care of timing, your damage output will be great.

Although my experience of DRK is short, but when I was leveling DRK/WAR from level 30 to 35, I don't really had issue for leaving Beserk on full time, leaving Last Resort on full time, or having Soul Eater active for long time (or even full time occasionally).

[Lmnop]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

It is cool that MAB applies to elemental WSs. And in those levels, I found (through other's DRKs) that Shadow of Death or whatever seems much more consistent and potent than Slice and pretty much anything else scythe or greatsword can do in those levels. To that end, MAB would enhance it even more, which would be quite nice.

I had forgotten to mention the obvious in my last post: Axe. Axe/shield or dual axe. Level 48 comes around and a single viking does a lot for your acc. Rampage @56, though axe in any form for Exp is kinda weak as of 60 with Guillo.

Dispel at 64/32 would be helpful, and there's one more cool thing a wee bit later: Stoneskin 66/33 (or is that Phalanx, making Stoneskin 68/34?). The great thing about Stoneskin is that it apparently counts as HP for fueling Souleater. Even though I think the number taken is based off of your normal current hp, not current HP + SS HP. If I'm right about this... it'd actually make your Souleater more potent - especially in the case of WSs - as your 2nd hit would take just as much hp and add just as much to damage as the first hit. I don't think your half leveled SS could hold up much more of a beating than that though. Also, you're Taru, right? People often look at that as a disadvantage for SE damage, but it actually makes it easier for you to leave it on for its whole duration and get more bang for your buck. Thus, lowering the neccessity for Berserk.

More stuff that I forget, here.

[Taskmage]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

Berserk doesn't really add 25% to your damage, but it does do a lot. The net effect really depends on how far up the damage tiers the extra Attack score places you.
Nonetheless, however much or little it does, it still does more than /BLM's MAB+10, which basically gives you maybe 5 extra damage per typical spell per your numbers given above.
While we're on the topic of spending MP, it's very likely that you're better off spending MP on Absorb-AGI or Absorb-VIT - not only does it help your damage/accuracy, but the rest of the party as well (this value isn't easily quantifiable, and depends on the stats of your party members).
Icemage

I'd heard that pDif is tiered, but I don't really understand it. The physical damage calculation page on the wiki doesn't seem to refer to it. Anyone care to explain?

Again referring to the wiki, blm's first trait gives MAB+20, which fits with my experience. My Aero MB hit in the low 50s, the whm's Aero MB hit in the low 60s. If it were only for MBs then it certainly wouldn't be worth it, but where I expect the MAB to shine is enhancing Drain, which I estimated as hitting for 150 at level 37. If I could increase my magic accuracy to the point that Drain was landing accurately for full damage, then adding 20% to the 300 point magical component of my damage would certainly be competitive with adding 15% to the 400 point physical component of my damage.

The problem is that I'm assuming much about the damage of my dark magic. It's practically impossible to tell exactly how much damage drain is doing. Hoping to get a clearer picture of that Drain damage I keep banking on, I set out to do some tests to determine exactly what Drain's damage function is, but I became quickly frustrated. I started by stripping my 75rdm/blm naked, using Convert to give myself very low HP, and Draining 5 Tiny Mandragoras. I expected Drain to behave similarly to elemental magic, with consistent damage when unresisted, possibly with a sliding D value based on Dark Magic skill. I cast 5 Drains and got 5 very different numbers: 61, 131, 210, 156, and 122. This completely baffles me. With 200 skill on my rdm, it seems absurd that I would be resisted four out of five times by level 1 mobs. Even if they are resists, the numbers don't fall into the commonly accepted tiers of resistance. I'm going to collect some more data later, but a besieged started as I was staring at those numbers, and I'm still trying to cap divine magic ...

As far as Absorb-VIT and Absorb-AGI are concerned, absolutely. After I got them I always opened with those spells on beetles.

It is cool that MAB applies to elemental WSs. And in those levels, I found (through other's DRKs) that Shadow of Death or whatever seems much more consistent and potent than Slice and pretty much anything else scythe or greatsword can do in those levels. To that end, MAB would enhance it even more, which would be quite nice.
I had forgotten to mention the obvious in my last post: Axe. Axe/shield or dual axe. Level 48 comes around and a single viking does a lot for your acc. Rampage @56, though axe in any form for Exp is kinda weak as of 60 with Guillo.
Dispel at 64/32 would be helpful, and there's one more cool thing a wee bit later: Stoneskin 66/33 (or is that Phalanx, making Stoneskin 68/34?). The great thing about Stoneskin is that it apparently counts as HP for fueling Souleater. Even though I think the number taken is based off of your normal current hp, not current HP + SS HP. If I'm right about this... it'd actually make your Souleater more potent - especially in the case of WSs - as your 2nd hit would take just as much hp and add just as much to damage as the first hit. I don't think your half leveled SS could hold up much more of a beating than that though. Also, you're Taru, right? People often look at that as a disadvantage for SE damage, but it actually makes it easier for you to leave it on for its whole duration and get more bang for your buck. Thus, lowering the neccessity for Berserk.
More stuff that I forget, here.

Shadow of Death really surprised me. When I got it in the jungles it did crap damage compared to Slice, as did Nightmare Scythe. I suggested a Shadow of Death > Sturmwind skillchain in GC and sucked it up as my WS did an awesome 9 damage, but took some comfort in the fact that the SC and MB damage was more than recovering my lost WS. When we tried the same thing on a beetle, I was stunned to see my SoD hitting for 100+ damage when my Slice had only been doing 60 or so. I dunno what changed. Maybe my jungle party was just overcamping.

Axe suffers from the same problem as sword in that drk only has a B- rating in the skill, so at higher levels you'd need merits in it to stay effective. I'm already meriting sword for my rdm and blu, so picking up axe is out. If anyone has experience with merited axe on drk, I'd certainly like to hear it though. Any wisdom that could be drawn from that could probably be applied to sword as well. I've heard of people having success with dual swords too, to my surprise at the time.

Yup, I'm taru. I'm meriting hp too for what it's worth. I hadn't really considered the effect of my max hp since there's not too much I can do about it. I can't swap in hp gear before Souleater to enhance it unless I'm getting healed at the same time, and if I leave it on I'd be forfeiting other valuable gear so I'm pretty much stuck with what I've got.

Stoneskin is an interesting idea, but I don't know if it'd work. Stoneskin has a long cast time so it'd have to be done outside of combat for you to stay effective, and with no natural enhancing skill, a drk's Stoneskin wouldn't be able to absorb that much. That sounds like a fun thing to try out later as rdm/drk though. I wonder if Phalanx applies to damage taken from Souleater.

[tdh]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

Being Elvaan, using my already pitiful MP pool to nuke just wasn't an option. For a Taru, your MP pool and higher INT might allow you nuke higher, but as I've always said, DRK's lack of MAB is what makes it a waste of MP.

I attempted to MB in the 40's but the low damage and eating away at my MP for Stun, I gave it up. (We experienced almost exclusively on Goblins.) DRKs can wear the Moldy Earring, but that's +5 and isn't going to up damage that significantly, and of course you're talking about Lv.37 - not Lv.47.

You mentioned going with Sword due to Skillchain options but only the difference in the Skillchain is who you're going to partner with. DRK could do Distortion with SAM, THF, and DRG using Great Sword. Scythe gives you Distortion with RNG, DRG, and SAM. Scythe can do Fragmentation with a few jobs but you're generally going to give up doing bigger damage for yourself to open for somebody else. Sword gives you Distortion with a few options, or doing less damage for Fusion. So you're still working with similar options, and having similar problems. Everybody wants Distortion at that level, and Sword means no THF at that level.

DPS wise, I'm not sure if Sword damage would keep up with Scythe or Great Sword. I've never tried it myself, but I loved Scythe so much I gave up on Great Sword in the early 30's. Only to regret it when I was frantically trying to catch my skill up when I took DRK back up.

With maxed Sword Merits you will be able to do some damage with Sword, and throwing in spells you may actually come close to a DRK w/ Scythe's total damage, but at what cost? Parties in those lower levels still, thankfully, rely on Skillchains to speed up kills. You will lag behind in TP build from spell casting.

As far as Souleater + Sword and Souleater + Scythe/GS I don't think Sword would keep up. The other night in EXP we had a link, and then our MNK disco'd. I popped Souleater and Blood Weapon. Each hit did 255 - 300dmg. A Sword, even with it's lower delay, isn't going to add up to 4~5 Scythe hits for that much damage. (The only time I've used Souleater w/ Sword I was RDM/DRK. 1007dmg with Souleater Vorpal Blade, and then I canceled Souleater.) Either way, I don't think it's worth using Sword until you get Vorpal Blade.

Thinking back to Lv.40, I sub'd THF. Most of my SA Slices were right around 200dmg. With Souleater I could push that to 400dmg. As /WAR Slice can range from 60dmg to 250dmg, but keep in mind at that level there are really only two "awesome" WSs. I mean check out the big hitters.

Lv.30 Sturmwind
Lv.33 Viper Bite
Lv.41 Raging Fists
Lv.49 Penta Thrust
Lv.55 Sidwinder
Lv.55 Slugshot
Lv.55 Rampage
Lv.60 Guillotine
Lv.60 Sickle Moon
Lv.60 Raging Rush
Lv.60 Dancing Edge
Lv.60 Vorpal Blade
Lv.60 Blade: Jin

DRK doesn't enter that list until Lv.56 when they get access to Rampage. So damage will be erratic and will cost all of your toys to break into the 300's, but if you can open/close a Skillchain that allows big MBs, you're still doing your job.

Ultimately you can do that job with a Sword, but I think your DPS would be lower and your reliance upon MP would slow you down further. If only my DRG was Lv.47, we could test it out together, but I'm too broke to level THF sub let alone DRG! lol

[Lmnop]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

Sturmwind's 24ish. And yes, if a Sword has 60% less delay, then it'll get 60% more damage out of Souleater. Your per-hits with SE on will be lower, but not proportionately. Gotta love S-E: Give the class who works best with one big hit (THF) WSs that attack multiple times and low delay, while the class that works best swinging as fast as possible uses the slowest weapon in the game.

As for Axe: at level 59, just using one axe, you'd have 7 lower acc than Scythe. However, that one Axe would be a Viking axe (or 2). That's +10 accuracy. So now it's 3 ahead of Scythe/Greatsword (they're the same at this level as +s/-s don't exist 'til 61). If you have Vassago's for +5 acc, Scythe comes out ahead 2 acc. But, you're still using Vorpal Scythe instead of Rampage. Axing is very situational, and thus it's extremely understandible to not care about it just for this situational range. Basically, 48+ I see it as equivalent to Scythe. I see it as better than Scythe 56-59, but once you hit 60 it's just fun for Ballista.

[Taskmage]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

If you have 40-cap gear for your drk, we can go head to head in Pso'xja or Riverne A01 and see how it parses out. That would be the best possible test. I need to get 9 more merit points and 3 more levels with drk before the comparison would be meaningful though, so it'll be awhile.

In the meantime I can try to make some sense of Drain. Seriously, wtf with those numbers? The damage range is worse than melee. What's that 210? A crit?

[Armando]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

I'd heard that pDif is tiered, but I don't really understand it. The physical damage calculation page on the wiki doesn't seem to refer to it. Anyone care to explain?

*puts on his Professor Daravon hat.*

PDIF is calculated through a set of formulas. But let's not get ahead of ourselves! First, you need to know your "level corrected" Attack/Defense ratio. As you may know, if a mob is at a higher level than you, then your damage, hitting rate, and magic accuracy take a hit. In the case of damage, your real Attack/Defense ratio is gimped by a certain ammount (0.05) for each level the mob is higher than you. In other words, your level-corrected Attack/Defense ratio is calculated as [Insert your "real" Attack/Defense ratio here] - (0.05 * [Insert # of levels the mob is higher than you here.]) Note that this only goes one-way - we don't get a damage bonus for being higher level than the mob (though it's possible that this same restriction applies to lower level mobs trying to hit us!)

So, anyways, once you have your level-corrected Attack/Defense ratio, you plug that into the formulas for minimum and maximum PDIF found in VZX's FFXI Doc (Damage Related -> Normal and Physical WS Damage Calculation -> pDIF). The cRatio in that section refers to your corrected Attack/Defense ratio. As you can see, the appropriate formula varies according to what your cRatio is (thus, the tiers.) I made a graph that shows how PDIF range (and average PDIF) changes as your cRatio goes up. Just bear in mind that I'm Excel-retarded, and thus the average PDIF at the beginning should actually be lower (I calculated the average PDIF as (Max PDIF - Min PDIF)/2, but this doesn't take into account that the lowest possible PDIF ranges go into the negatives. The negative values are, of course, changed to 0, but because there are multiple possible negative values, then 0 is that much more likely to show up, dragging the average down.) You can see it here!

As far as Souleater + Sword and Souleater + Scythe/GS I don't think Sword would keep up. The other night in EXP we had a link, and then our MNK disco'd. I popped Souleater and Blood Weapon. Each hit did 255 - 300dmg. A Sword, even with it's lower delay, isn't going to add up to 4~5 Scythe hits for that much damage. (The only time I've used Souleater w/ Sword I was RDM/DRK. 1007dmg with Souleater Vorpal Blade, and then I canceled Souleater.) Either way, I don't think it's worth using Sword until you get Vorpal Blade.

Sword + Souleater damage excedes (Insert two-handed weapon here) + Souleater damage based on the principle of adding a static, huge number to your damage that many more times. The damage Souleater adds to any swing done to an EXP mob will outweigh the damage of the swing itself, so in general, the more you swing, the more damage you get done.

You are right in that there are many points in the lower level in which the sword selection is weak and the DPS of the weapons available are inferior to that of their two-handed counterparts. Then again, Great Sword and Scythe selection aren't spectacular early on either. This is why I mentioned earlier that you should remain flexible and take advantage from the strongest weapon available at a given level regardless of what type of weapon it is.

Regarding Drain: Perhaps it's random by nature? That's what I make of your results, in any case. Also, I thought Drain wasn't influenced by MAB?

[Celeal]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

But Drain has 1 minute timer.... and imho, the practical use for drain is to relief healer's burden, not for primary damage.

Seems like your drk/blm approach is similar to what a BLU DD does: using sword and cast magic. drk/blm's nuke may work on VT mob, but I have my doubt of the nuke from drk/blm on IT mob. MAB from /blm alone won't cut it.

I imagine a level 37 drk/blm's nuke, is like a level 37 blm using a scythe (or a sword) and ACC/ATK/STR gear instead of INT+ gear and wand, and use the lower tier nuke as the level 37 drk uses.

A DD BLU may perform better then drk/blm, a level 40+ nin/blm or nin/rdm who spam Ni elemental wheel may perform better as well.

[Taskmage]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

*puts on his Professor Daravon hat.*

zzzz

Also, I thought Drain wasn't influenced by MAB?

That's part of what I was trying to determine. I was hoping to get an explicit formula of the damage so I could see what exactly affected it and possibly project how the damage would grow as I leveled. I guess I can still do that, I just need to take a much larger sample.

[Armando]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

I know that S-E officially chaged the mechanics of Drain at some point. I was looking through the Japanese release update notes, but haven't found anything yet, and it's getting late. By the way, translators crack me up. "It returns" (see: Back) never fails to make me laugh. Of course, then there's BST's "Treat it Kindly," and BRD's "Triumphant return march of the glory." Oh man...

[tdh]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

I'll have to test it, but I still don't see how Souleater w/ a Sword can out do Souleater w/ a Scythe. Usually land 4 or 5 hits with Souleater and a Scythe. Doing 250 min, that comes out to 1,000 to 1,250 dmg. Against an EXP mob, I just don't see Sword keeping up. I'll have to find a way to test it this weekend though.

As for Drain, from what I can tell, MAB from my Moldy earring has been effecting damage... but keep in mind damage is so erratic for all I know it wasn't actually doing anything for me.

I was just on the boat to Nashmau and pulled a 188HP Drain off a Pugil, and then a minute later did a 33HP Drain. Mob was EP to me. Half hour later, I was taking the boat again, and fought a Crab on the boat. I fired off a Guillotine, cast Absorb-TP and recieved 98% TP back. So I don't think we have anyway in knowing what's a non-resisted Drain.

And yes, I do have Lv.40 cap stuff. We'll need a tank~ish and Healing Magic. But we can test it. I'll bring a Great Axe too. DRK/THF with Great Axe would be pretty mean in those Lv.40 cap areas.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

I never tried drk/blm, but tried drk/rdm at level 32 in G.C, becasue the party setup was light on healing side. Those Regen and Cure helped.

I think you misremembered; RDM doesn't get Regen until Lv.21, so DRK/RDM won't get it until Lv.42.

I MB'ed a few Distortion for fun too, but those tier 1 nuke is about the same dmg as my melee. There as a few times link/pop/aggro/train and I attended to Sleep the link, but resisted all the time (bat resisted dark element, beetles were at the high-end of IT, it was a time when mob won't de-spawn during train/link situation), ended up getting the hate and zone the link. I don't think I was able to land slow/paralyze/blind as drk/rdm either. (I did not have gear to swap for magic casting either)

I only did the /mage thing in Valkurm Dunes (/WHM), and at that level my capped enfeebling skill meant I could land Paralyze better than most RDM's and WHM's I had in party. >_>;

In Crawlers Nest (as DRK/WAR), my Sleep was never resisted (I was faster than the RDM's on sleep reapply), and my MB wasn't exactly impressive, but still better dmg/sec than a scythe swing.

On beetles, I can Aspir on pull, making it practical to toss out Absorb-AGI at times since I can get in another Aspir or two per battle. Mostly, I used my MP for Drain--the damage may not be consistent, but its average is in the 50's. Considering that means 50 HP healed and 50 HP damage for 21 MP, it's a better than 4:1 HP:MP ratio, and therefore awesome.

Thing is, I'm not really concerned with losing Berserk and Sneak Attack and melee stats. SA right now adds maybe 60 damage to my total every fight, and Berserk is a no-no unless I've got an above-average tank. Using those subs, I'm actually forced to hold back my JAs to stay under the hate line, and I still parse as top DD most of the time. Bumping down my normal damage a bit or losing those tools just gives me more breathing room to use the tools I still have, the way I see it.

I didn't check on Berserk's effect that carefully, but looking at my parser result from my Lv.36-38 party I did noticed a pattern: I'd outdamage the BLU/NIN for 2-3 fights in a row, then he'd out damage me for the next 1 or 2 fights.

The JP BLU was perpectually drunk on yagudo drink with much better melee accuracy (about 10% higher than me--he was eating sole sushi, and must have capped sword to my lagging Great Sword and Scythe skills. I run out of squid sushi in the last hour of partying and was using rice dumpling.

I was also using Berserk full time, though, and that fits nicely the pattern top DD switching back and forth I was seeing. (Couldn't use Souleater as much; it's only worth it for chain#4 or #5 when mages have MP to heal.)

(Interesting side note: even with all the yagudo drinks and spell spamming, a little more than half of the BLU/NIN's damage was from melee and weapon skill. Looks like BLU really is the melee'ing mage every new player wanted from sword and magic type RPG games.)

Berserk really helps out the damage, from what I can tell.

I think where a DRK is supposed to be is at the boundry of the hate line; it's okay to take a step over every so often--WHM and RDM's are supposed to heal, and Drain is one of the best use of MP before (and even after) getting Absorb-VIT and Absorb-AGI.

My party had a strange set up of PLD + NIN at the end, and it was great ducking behind the PLD so she could Flash or shield bash the mob when I use Last Resort or just use Cover if I'm using Souleater while the NIN main tank away most of the mob's attack. (i.e. Sometimes on chain #4 mob the healers have enough MP for me to use souleater!)

As for Sneak Attack, I've never used it with DRK, but I had experiences with WAR/THF. Aside from the "Oh Geez I better use Defender" kind of Sturmwind damage, the SA is used to boost accuracy, and gain TP faster. In fact, the slower your weapon (*cough* scythe *cough* Great Axe *cough*), the more useful SA is. If you're only using SA once a battle as DRK/THF, you're not using it right--this ability can add a lot of damage for a smart and alert player. ^_-

Berserk and Sneak Attack are great tools for DRK, and I'm not sure it's worth trading either for MAB, Elemental Seal, and more MP (esp. for a Tarutaru).

BTW, I didn't have (too much) trouble using Berserk full time, where as Souleater almost always ends chain, and Last Resort always gets me slapped by the mob unless there's PLD. As nice as as Souleater is, it demands a nearly perfect party, and I find any strategy based on getting more use out of it in exp settings to be suspect.

For the amount of damage and enmity Berserk seems to add, it's better for DRK than Last Resort and Souleater, sad to say.

[Icemage]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

BTW, I didn't have (too much) trouble using Berserk full time, where as Souleater almost always ends chain, and Last Resort always gets me slapped by the mob unless there's PLD. As nice as as Souleater is, it demands a nearly perfect party, and I find any strategy based on getting more use out of it in exp settings to be suspect.

For the amount of damage and enmity Berserk seems to add, it's better for DRK than Last Resort and Souleater, sad to say.

My experience watching DRKs at all levels supports this.

Riding the hate-line is the core of most DD jobs. Some jobs just have better tools than others (DRG is excellent at riding hate, since they have High Jump, Super Jump, and a Wyvern to share hate with). Dark Knight is probably the worst DD at controlling hate since the JAs draw so much enmity.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

Bah.

40whm/20drk … Min Drain: 42 … Max Drain: 77 … Avg. Drain: 62.90 … StdDev: 11.60 (18.44%)
{42, 44, 44, 52, 54, 56, 56, 57, 63, 65, 67, 68, 68, 70, 71, 75, 76, 76, 77, 77}
40whm/20blm … Min Drain: 39 … Max Drain: 81 … Avg. Drain: 58.45 … StdDev: 12.44 (21.29%)
{39, 42, 42, 45, 48, 51, 51, 52, 54, 56, 58, 63, 64, 66, 68, 69, 69, 71, 80, 81}

Did 20 drains each with whm/drk and whm/blm. Both had 63 dark magic skill; /drk had 43 int and no MAB; /blm had 45 int and 20% MAB. My drains with /blm actually did an insignificant amount less damage than my drains with /drk. Drain and presumably Aspir are not affected by magic attack bonus, so the biggest reason I wanted to sub blm to drk is based on a false premise.

/blm would still provide 20% more damage to magic-based weaponskills and elemental magic, but you'd probably better off using physical weaponskills and enhancing them physically as is the norm, and nudging elemental magic from uselessness to questionable utility isn't a good enough reason on its own.

I still haven't given up on the possibility of sword though. I'll do some testing with it in a month or two after finishing my merits and leveling to 40.

Oh, incidentally .. I did the same sample on my rdm and got these results:

75rdm/37blm … Min Drain: 61 … Max Drain: 220 … Avg. Drain: 163.00 … StdDev: 40.15 (24.63%)
{61, 118, 122, 130, 131, 138, 143, 147, 148, 156, 178, 183, 187, 188, 197, 197, 198, 208, 210, 220}

[Nazo]

Re: sword/spell dark knight?

I took my 43 drk out for a spin tonight for the first time in ages. I was a bit concerned when the leader asked if I'd manage going /rdm for some extra support but it worked out alright. As we only had a whm and 5 melees they wanted me to try some debuffs; with drks not-greak enfeeble skill and my taru's naturally low mnd I didn't think I stood much of a chance, but opening with absorb-mnd I was able to land paralyze about 70% of the time and on the rare occasions we got links I was able to sleep them with little problem.
My melee dmg took a bit of a hit, especially with the extra casting but I still turned the mob from our pld a few times and the reduced casting times for the absorb spells are great. So only situationally useful, certainly but it worked out much better than I thought it would.