Taru DRK hate?

[Taskmage]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

But iirc, he did it because he kept his job abilities active for longer than most other DRK, and unless I'm mistaken, isn't that a noob move? I mean, it does good damage, but I heard that SE is only for burst damage.

Are you subbing Murphie again? I think you might need to level that. You'll get much better results from the higher level job traits when it's not gimp.

[Hell-bottom]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

i can't help but to comment , DRK + Sword = total destruction , personally as a Hume DRK , i do a rather nice DMG compared to a WAR with double axes . that adds to the solo capablity of a DRK/NIN , get haste eqp and you're DRK will be invincible .

[Vyuru]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Also, are there DRKs that cast more than ABS-DEX and ABS-TP? With my MP, I'd be spamming Drain, Aspir, ABS-TP/STR/DEX whenever I could. I think that is the advantage of being a Taru: We can afford to cast those Absorb spells that cover our weaknesses.

This is true, but I think that drks should think more about what helps their party and their absorb spells.

Sure, absorb Vit doesn't do that much by itself, neither does Dia II or Choke. But toss on Dia II, Choke, and Absorb Vit, that IT mob is being hit like a VT+, toss in an acid bolt and he is being hit like a VT-.

I REALLY love it when a dark knight uses their absorb spells, they are very helpful to a party.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

LoL, I don't know what you're talking about. I've been a RDM as long as I can remember. My Subjob has been PMP for 3 years.

[Aeni]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

This means that a Taru can feasable spam TP-Absorb more than a Elvaan can, and make up in DoT what they lose in raw strength.

Just a correction WM :p Abs is on a one minute cooldown. You cannot "spam" this spell, even if you were to merit (I'm not sure if this is even available) and reduce the cooldown of these spells. If you get a resist or failed attempt, that's a whole 60sec which presumably means you need to wait for the next fight to reuse it, depending on how quickly the party can kill.

Still, even once a fight is pretty decent, but this is the leverage that SE has over DRKs on abusing TP gain with the spell. This also makes it impossible for a Galkan or Elvaan DRK to have shortcomings, due to the fact that with a refresh, they have more than ample enough MP to float.

All Abs spells are situational and work the same way as a WHM using Erase or BLM using Escape. You just select the spells that benefit the party more on any particular fight.

However, what you mean to say is that Tarutaru DRKs do have a higher INT stat and a stronger MP pool than their sibling DRKs. This makes it possible for them to nuke more, given the fact that spells are relatively expensive compared with the average MP pool DRKs have in general. This means more possibilities with laying an MB down while not having to be restraint on MP conservation. However, MP, if not rested, is replenished in the same manner, so burning MP for a Tarutaru might be a disadvantage in certain party situations and will never be beneficial in a TP burn PT.

With that said, I disagree entirely with Hell-Bottom's analysis. I've had the luxury of PT'ing with or even grouping with DRKs like Strength, Kumaeru and Meo (Galkan, Tarutaru, Mithran respectively) Each one of them represented their race without equal and excelled their job class. I learned from the best and thus I came to the conclusion that if there were differences, it was minor and that play ability > everything else.

Again, to Hell-Bottom ... learn2play (lrn2ply)

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Hey, DRK have higher elemental damage rating than RDM. But RDM get staves, Tier III and +skill gear, so it doesn't matter. I just thought that DRK were given a base of B-ish skill for a reason... Thanks for highlighting that, Aeni.

And I rarely see DRK use MP aside from the occasional Stun and more recently, ABS-TP. I can't shake the feeling that the majority of Dark Spells are being unused...

But in anycase, I suppose you just supported my analysis that a Taru would be more inclined to cast more ABS spells, simply because their MP afforded them the priveledge, and an Elvaan or Galka wouldn't be missing out, because their raw stats provide them with enough of a buffer as it is.


Off-Topic:
Oh, and would Auto-Refresh (LoL, sidenote: I just pressed [TAB] to try and finish that word >_> ) help DRK like it has helped PLD? Did DRKs feel left out when PLDs got that? I was of the impression that most everything PLD and DRK did correlated for Defense and Offense respectively. Would you veteren DRKs use your abilities more if you had Auto-Refresh?

[Taskmage]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

It is actually true that drk has a higher elemental skill than rdm, they just get new spells way, way slower than we do. Perhaps ironically, they can do fast, weak nukes fairly accurately whereas we get to swing the big tier-3 spells while crossing our fingers it doesn't miss. ^^ But, it's not that drk doesn't get staves—all jobs can use them—it'd just be a mess for them to swap and lose TP all the time.

I do agree with you that it seems most drks don't make the most of their spells. Heck, even Stun is a rare enough thing for me to see. I don't know how efficient or effective the various stat-absorb spells are, but at very least I think I should see Drain get cast a lot more often. Drain is an absurdly efficient damage spell, and drk has the best rating for it, making it both more potent and more accurate for them. Even with my rdm's D or whatever rated dark skill I can still pull a Drain for nearly 200 every now and then. 200 damage for 21 mp is awesome! I mean sure, I guess you don't get TP for it, but that's still a nice chunk of damage. Maybe they think because the log says "drained for 0" when they're at full health that the spell didn't do any damage?

[Aeni]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Off-Topic:
Oh, and would Auto-Refresh (LoL, sidenote: I just pressed [TAB] to try and finish that word >_> ) help DRK like it has helped PLD? Did DRKs feel left out when PLDs got that? I was of the impression that most everything PLD and DRK did correlated for Defense and Offense respectively. Would you veteren DRKs use your abilities more if you had Auto-Refresh?

I don't think it would matter. There's a degree of stereotyping among DRKs with the whole debate on the usefulness of spell casting. On one extreme, you have players that will say that if your MP isn't bottomed out on Chain #5, you're a nub and shouldn't even be playing the job. These are the very same people advocating for dedication of 20+ equipment pieces to swap in on every single spell casting routine (To the detriment of the RDM refreshing that DRK - omg, I find this on a first hand experience ******* annoying to no end)

On the otherside, are people that say if you're into casting spell, you're playing the wrong job. That you should pickup BLM instead. They also say you still can have a scythe, since all you want with it is to look pretty.

Those are the polar ends.

I've come to realize, however, that there is a time and place for casting spells. Casting too much wreaks your melee dps. Over a course of one minute, you have to balance off the loss of natural melee damage with the offset from spell casting. Granted, we do have high elemental skill, but it is increasingly difficult and frustrating to maintain this skill when your only gain is from actually casting expensive, lower tiered spells that produce meaningless amounts of damage in comparison to the wicked amounts of mp you expend and in comparison to the other jobs with similar abilities (SMN, BLM and RDM) And mind you, you do not have the benefit of Conserve MP, regardless on how little or great other mages view that trait as. You also must sacrifice TP with having to restore MP on resting. Again, if you do not rest, MP regen is extremely slow and is no different from a Tarutaru DRK and a Galkan DRK. The only difference is one job sees their meter fill up faster than the other due to the difference in the size of that pool.

So, what do I see casting since the latest patches? Abs-TP is great, it makes us expend a bit more. But, in this department, ironically enough, we share the same pains as BLM. MP restoration is a hindrance to exp flow. Our lower tiers available to us when compared with a BLM makes this even less attractive and since our greatest assets lie in our ability to deal a large amount of damage over time and in bursts (with our job abilities) that more DRKs tend to shy than embrace spell casting.

This of course becomes a problem in TP Burn parties. Most DRKs discard the use of MP except to "catch up" with TP. TP Burns have reduced DRKs to no more than mindless swinging TP whores like most every other melee in the exception that most other melee were doing that from the very start.

It is actually true that drk has a higher elemental skill than rdm, they just get new spells way, way slower than we do. Perhaps ironically, they can do fast, weak nukes fairly accurately whereas we get to swing the big tier-3 spells while crossing our fingers it doesn't miss. ^^ But, it's not that drk doesn't get staves—all jobs can use them—it'd just be a mess for them to swap and lose TP all the time.

I do agree with you that it seems most drks don't make the most of their spells. Heck, even Stun is a rare enough thing for me to see. I don't know how efficient or effective the various stat-absorb spells are, but at very least I think I should see Drain get cast a lot more often. Drain is an absurdly efficient damage spell, and drk has the best rating for it, making it both more potent and more accurate for them. Even with my rdm's D or whatever rated dark skill I can still pull a Drain for nearly 200 every now and then. 200 damage for 21 mp is awesome! I mean sure, I guess you don't get TP for it, but that's still a nice chunk of damage. Maybe they think because the log says "drained for 0" when they're at full health that the spell didn't do any damage?

Stun is rarely used except to keep skills capped. I've seen DRKs reduce to casting just Bio so that the mages can write over it with Dia II. This helps them build their skill and not interfere with party dynamics. Stun is useful when giving time for an utsu recast, but honestly, NINs don't need this with haste gear and haste songs/spells on. So it's more used like Flash when a PLD/NIN uses it (With regards to helping other melee members in TP Burn) That, at least, is how I'm seeing the state of things currently.

[Vyuru]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Stun is rarely used except to keep skills capped. I've seen DRKs reduce to casting just Bio so that the mages can write over it with Dia II

Sure, not all mobs have mp, but why not aspir? Or drain? Drain is a kickass spell in terms of mp used/damage dealt.

I normally see plenty of drks casting stun when fighting goblins in Bibiki Bay, other than that though, not so often. I see blm stunning attacks/TP moves so that the pld/ninja can get off a spell.

When I play rdm, I have a general rule that if they cast spells, they get refresh so that their mp is always full, if they cast 1 spell every 5 fights, then they can wait

You also must sacrifice TP with having to restore MP on resting.

But with Absorb TP, isn't this a bit of a moot point? You guys can get 40+tp pretty quickly now with it.

You guys can also wear the Parade Gorget, so maybe we'll see some more drks using that mp pool of theirs. You can also use sanction refresh to get more mp for use which is pretty nice.

Bah, all these ways to play drk with so many possibilities, I may have to level dark knight now >.>

I can't shake the feeling that the majority of Dark Spells are being unused...

I would have to argree with you. I had a dark knight friend (sadly he quit :/) who used to use, I think it was Absorb Mind if the blm was getting alot of resists. He always complained because his party would say something along the lines of, "wtf? drk doesn't need mnd!11!" Meanwhile, the blm is now landing unresisted nukes

Bah, I miss Amazo ; ; He was a great guy.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

I think you mean ABS-INT, lol...

[Mini Neruto]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Lol, hey guys havent been on in a while. That hell guy sure is a...dont know if im allowed to say it on the boards. Ive out damaged Elv MANY times with other melee jobs, its all about skill and gear baby! Elv think there big and bad with str and they dont back it up with consistant hits? Taru can rack up tp FAST especially on sam.

All i got to say. (Oh and i stopped lvling drk and started lvl sam ^^, its really really fun).

[Aeni]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Sure, not all mobs have mp, but why not aspir? Or drain? Drain is a kickass spell in terms of mp used/damage dealt.

In my own experience, Stun gives you 0.3 skill ups more often than 0.1 when used on VT-IT mobs. Plus, it's almost never resisted (Except against certain NM/HNMs) Drain has the problem of being resisted more often than not, even when an A rated skill is capped. My skill is always capped and even on EM type monsters I get resisted about 20~25% of the time (I'm starting to be suspicious about the resist rate with Drain as it seems to follow a different calculation than the resist rate for elemental spells because 180 drain and then 197 drain on the same mob in the same battle is not a nice fractional ratio)

Aspir is quite situational. Also, against something like those weapons in sky with Shell IV on, it's next to useless.

I normally see plenty of drks casting stun when fighting goblins in Bibiki Bay, other than that though, not so often. I see blm stunning attacks/TP moves so that the pld/ninja can get off a spell.

Again, situational. Some Bibiki Bay parties believed you shouldn't stun a gob bomb because there's a chance that the gob will kill himself and thus the battle is done. And usually there's no damage (not a great one) on the party. Of course, there's also a chance that the bomb will be so devastating that a whole PT can be wiped off the face of Vana'Diel.

Stun is also on 45s recast and with haste, it's still about 40s or so. You can only use it once per battle. I've fought weapons with back-to-back-to-back-to-back Whirl of Rage that even if I and then the BLM stopped the first two, you still get shellacked on the next two. TP usage by monsters are so random that it goes back again to situational and that you almost always can't determine when you need it. In my experience, it's almost never needed (There were TP burn PTs in Sky on those same weapons long before ToAU and those parties excluded DRKs back then as well as BLM = no stun)

When I play rdm, I have a general rule that if they cast spells, they get refresh so that their mp is always full, if they cast 1 spell every 5 fights, then they can wait

You're in a category of roughly 20% of good RDMs that I've seen/partied with/studied on two servers (Mid and Hades) Sad, but true.

But with Absorb TP, isn't this a bit of a moot point? You guys can get 40+tp pretty quickly now with it.

They now changed it so that you can't get it at will (It can be resisted as well and I would not be surprised that it's now on the same level as the resist rate with other Abs spells and if that's the case, then Abs-TP is now lol) Also, you have to time it. You can't start a battle with it, right? Monster needs to build TP. If a NIN is tanking, monster gets TP only from damage on itself as it can't build TP hitting shadows...

You guys can also wear the Parade Gorget, so maybe we'll see some more drks using that mp pool of theirs. You can also use sanction refresh to get more mp for use which is pretty nice.

Bah, all these ways to play drk with so many possibilities, I may have to level dark knight now >.>

I would have to argree with you. I had a dark knight friend (sadly he quit :/) who used to use, I think it was Absorb Mind if the blm was getting alot of resists. He always complained because his party would say something along the lines of, "wtf? drk doesn't need mnd!11!" Meanwhile, the blm is now landing unresisted nukes

Bah, I miss Amazo ; ; He was a great guy.

You're talking either from a personal experience from the past or are not following the current trend which is TP Burn PTs > all. Every new DRK I see is now subbing NIN and dual wielding one handers. IF SE wanted DRKs to use Scythe more often, they better address the whole TP Burn PT issues ... which seems to have created problems not just with PLDs, BLMs, WHMs ... but as well as forcing everyone to avoid using high delay weapons.

[Aeni]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Forgot to add another classic example with stun.

You say there's two (BLM and DRK if in PT) yet you forget that alot of TP moves begin with the first weapon skill. Weapons almost always Whirl of Rage after the first ws. The DRK/THF is preparing SATA + WS at this time and the BLM has already started casting his lengthy spell. At this point in time ... do you screw up the WS or MB just to stun? In either case, it's screwed already - Whirl of Rage is AoE stun. If NIN is in PT, no shield bash.

My post above the one before this was illustrating general DRK sentiments on the whole debate on spell casting. In no way was it a take on all DRKs and/or a minor few.

[Taskmage]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

According to the updated TP formulas from Studio Gobli, the best delay ranges for TP gain are below 200 delay, and between 480 and 530 delay. Most scythes fall into the latter range, whereas swords with 235 delay or lower would qualify for the former with the 15% delay reduction from DW2. Looking at the chart scythes should be equal or slightly faster than swords in TP gained in a given amount of time, assuming the accuracy of each is equivalent. Even with sword merits, drk would have higher accuracy with a scythe, and not being tied to /nin would allow them to sub war or sam for double attack or store TP and meditate to speed up their TP gain further.

On paper, it doesn't make sense for drk to sub nin and dual wield swords for faster TP gain. Am I missing something?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Taru DRK hate?

Melee sub NIN in TP burn because of moves. There isn't a true "tank," aside from someone who is the main focus of attention for the slight majority of the time.

DRKs subbing NIN in TP Burn still use scythe because they get their best WSs with them, it's just that with AOE moves and that 3 hit thing Wyverns do, and the fact that when you spam a WS, the mob could turn anywhich way, even MNKs sub NIN in these parties.