Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

[Spider-Dan]

I'm not exactly clear on how these two JAs stack. Maybe someone can explain what would happen in this example:

DRK is at 1000/1500 HP. Mob is at 2000/2000 HP. DRK delivers a hit that does 100 base physical damage (before SE/BW calculations).

What does the log say?
What is DRK's HP at after that attack?
What is the mob's HP at after that attack?

And how do Gloom Breastplate/Sable Cuisses/Chaos Burgeonet affect the above?

[Armando]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

I'm not a DRK, and have never played the job, but recently I tanked a BCNM60 Grimshell Shocktroopers. Basically, you fight 6 Quadavs, and they can all 2-hour. When the DRK used Blood Weapon, I remember clearly that the chatlog said it drained X ammount of HP from me, but I can't remember if it gave the normal hit message as well. I know for sure though that it didn't hit me AND drain that much (i.e. if it hit me for 50, I only lost 50, not 50 from the hit and 50 from Blood Weapon's drain.)

As for Souleater + Blood Weapon, I'm fairly certain the way it works is that SE drains 10% of your HP and adds it directly to whatever you'd normally do, but since Blood Weapon is active and the extra damage you did from Souleater is equal to the HP you lost, you get that HP back, as well as the damage you did. For example...

Given: DRK hits for 75, Souleater drains 100 HP (1000 * 0.10)

Mob's HP after the attack: 2000 - (75 + 100) = 1825
DRK's HP after the attack: 1000 - 100 + (75 + 100) = 1075

Sadly, I can't remember the specifics of those pieces of equipment, though I remember that one of them increased the HP you lose and the extra damage added to the attack, while another lowered the HP drained from you while still adding the normal ammount of damage to the attack.

[Icemage]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

I can confirm what Armando is saying above. Souleater is +10% of current HP bleed and adds that much damage (the additional damage ignores defense). Blood Weapon causes all damage hits to heal you for that much life (it doesn't actually add any more damage, just restores HP).

If you really want to see silly amounts of damage, take a high-HP DRK like a Galka or Elvaan and hand them a Kraken Club.


Icemage

[bside]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

And how do Gloom Breastplate/Sable Cuisses/Chaos Burgeonet affect the above?

As for Souleater + Blood Weapon, I'm fairly certain the way it works is that SE drains 10% of your HP and adds it directly to whatever you'd normally do, but since Blood Weapon is active and the extra damage you did from Souleater is equal to the HP you lost, you get that HP back, as well as the damage you did.

Those gears turn 12% of your HP, instead of 10%, to the damage. However, their effects don't stack; 12% max no matter how many of them you wear.

[Aeni]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

Souleater adds damage in exchange for a loss of some health. The higher level you are and the more HP you have, the better your damage.

However, Souleater scales with current HP, so you need to make sure your healer is keeping your HP up (Think Spirits Within) If you're not getting healed, you're losing a lot of HP for minimal gains, which is totally stupid, once you get into the discussion of efficiency taking into account mana burned, mana regened and all that good stuff. Of course, this might be moot if you're soloing, however, even in this instance, you'd need your 2hour to make it even worthwhile.

About Blood Weapon, the damage scales with your current base damage. Here's an interesting thing, however. Calculation of Blood Weapon is done as a final step, meaning that if you have Souleater active, it will take into account all the damage being done with Souleater (Last Resort, Berserk, etc.) and then it adds on it's own numbers.

Blood Weapon is two-fold damage. You drain for the amount that you would currently be dealing without it active. You also are dealing that said damage (It is not merely transferring HP from one entity to another!) This is indicated by the white numbers + blue numbers (Or whatever color scheme you changed your log to)

Blood Weapon has limitations, however. You can't use it on just any mob, for example (Try using it on a skeleton and you'll find yourself being on the other end of that) Also, you should never try to use it when below 40% health, because you are still going to take regular damage and have to deal with weapon delay and other such issues. Also, Blood Weapon works best when fully hasted or using a low delay weapon. In other words, it contradicts SE telling us DRKs we should only be using our scythe (or using it more) because that kind of weapon is counterproductive with our 2hour.



****** I posted a screen before of some test I did on KI when someone didn't believe me on how BW worked (on it's mechanic) I need to find it again and post it if someone is questioning my findings. ***********

[Lmnop]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

From what I've seen (and I have no first hand experience, sadly), the breastplate and the AF head do not stack, as Bside said. However, I also saw the thing that Armando was talking about with the legs reducing the HP drain instead, but I've honestly seen zero reliable testing on the legs. For that matter, I barely ever see reliable Souleater testing. It took me 6 months just to get an answer to whether or not you can see an increase to your "Attack" score in your equip menu or if it's just added directly to damage. Sheesh!

And what's with this "Accuracy Bonus" of Souleater? People can parse out the hidden effect accuracy boost of Maneater a month after it comes out but 4 years after launch, we still don't have an even remotely accurate figure for the Acc boost on Souleater?

C'mon Dark Knights! You're dropping the ball, here!

Ahh, Aeni posted just as I was. I would like to see some testing as to whether or not BW effectively doubles your damage or not. I've seen lots of sources playing both sides of the debate.

[Icemage]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

I think Armando posted some figures on Souleater recently that indicate it's a flat +20 ACC. I don't know whathis source is, but it's probably at Studio Gobli someplace.


Icemage

[Aeni]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

C'mon Dark Knights! You're dropping the ball, here!

If we could consistently get into a non-burn party and be able to accurately parse things and test things with very patient and understanding players, sure.

Unfortunately, well, you already know the tune to that song.

[bside]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

I think Armando posted some figures on Souleater recently that indicate it's a flat +20 ACC. I don't know whathis source is, but it's probably at Studio Gobli someplace.
Icemage

That's been long known to JP community for a couple of years, maybe longer. And if I'm not mistaken it's not Studio Gobli who initially tested it, but it's somebody from the Testing Thread at 2ch.

Besides, testing Acc isn't that hard job to do. Get several Acc+ or - gears, switch them so your added Acc changes 1 by 1 while checking what the mob's evasion checks as, and see at what point it changes. Make sure you don't eat any foods that affect Acc by percentage, such as Sushi.

[Armando]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

Blood Weapon is two-fold damage. You drain for the amount that you would currently be dealing without it active. You also are dealing that said damage (It is not merely transferring HP from one entity to another!) This is indicated by the white numbers + blue numbers (Or whatever color scheme you changed your log to)

Out of curiosity, have you actually tested this, or are you just going by the fact that the number shows up twice in the chat log? I'm fairly certain I didn't take double damage from the Quadav's Blood Weapon...

As for that +20 Souleater Accuracy thing, I got it off of the same thread in which I originally read that Shield Break is -40 Evasion and Gravity is -10. That was a looooong time ago, though. Like Bside said, it's a simple test, you just need to have enough Acc gear.

[Aeni]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

Out of curiosity, have you actually tested this, or are you just going by the fact that the number shows up twice in the chat log? I'm fairly certain I didn't take double damage from the Quadav's Blood Weapon...

You can easily test this on Manticores (They have a very high amount of HP) Testing this on a mandragora in Sarutabaruta is kind of stupid actually, since no one can tell just exactly how much damage you did.

It's easy to do with Windower's "mob hp" plug-in active so you can accurately read just how much of the mob's HP you are taking off with each hit.

Think about it this way. When you're a pally and you proc drain from a blood sword, you should have gotten the regular damage AND the blood drain. Blood Weapon is 100% proc - assuming you actually hit the mob in the first place (And hit a mob you can actually drain off of)

I'm still trying to find the screenshot I posted on KI. Every single DRK has agreed with me on this issue (Just non-DRK players don't agree for the simple fact that what they see on their screen may not exactly be what I'm seeing on mine)

[Aeni]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

Oh, with regards to your comment on that quadav. If you ever fight Maat (DRK) you will see what I mean. With his 2 hour on, you bleed HP like f*cking crazy. Which is why it is recommended that you either kill Maat before he 2hours or you have vile elixir+1 and tons of hi-pots on you.

[Armando]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

Hm. That's very strange. Maybe I saw wrong. However, I'll take your word for it. Thanks for the info.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

I've gotta agree with Armando on this. I know how Bloody Bolts work (damage + drain effect added on top), and I'm pretty sure that BW doesn't work this way, even though the log displays it in the same manner.

The impetus for this thread was a recent trip to Dynamis; a DRK used BW and hit me twice, for ~230 damage each time. The log showed 230 damage, 230 drain. If those had really hit me for 560 damage each, it would have been QUITE apparent.

[Aeni]

Re: Question about Souleater + Blood Weapon mechanics

I've gotta agree with Armando on this. I know how Bloody Bolts work (damage + drain effect added on top), and I'm pretty sure that BW doesn't work this way, even though the log displays it in the same manner.

The impetus for this thread was a recent trip to Dynamis; a DRK used BW and hit me twice, for ~230 damage each time. The log showed 230 damage, 230 drain. If those had really hit me for 560 damage each, it would have been QUITE apparent.

You can look back at Rui's comment with regards to this (Gotta dig up a link to his comment with regards to that infamous Kraken Club video he made a long time ago) He even states that this was how he believed BW to work. I never really took his comments as gold until I used it myself.

Have you ever considered, that maybe, just maybe, they don't work the way they do just because they (monsters) have it?