when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

[Brayden]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

There was a pretty extensive test done a while back, I think it was on KI, that showed MND did indeed contribute to the dmg output of a WS like guillotine. However, as many have said above, the secondary modifier isnt as important overall as the first.

[Susurrus]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

To the DRKs from a RDM:

I believe a lot of time y'all don't get refreshed at all is because RDMs commonly see DRKs not casting spells AT ALL. So when the RDM parties with a DRK, they disregard them as needing refresh because in most parties they actually don't.

It's not usually the RDM being inconsiderate/stupid/mean/etc, its just they're usually going off of what they have learned from past experiences with DRKs.

I know from my own point of view this has happened and once I realized they were actually using their mp, started throwing them in my refresh cycle.

[Taskmage]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

Agreed. I personally put anyone who has mp on my refresh cycle by default, but if the cycle comes back around and you're still sitting at full mp, you get skipped that round. Few things make me happier than to see a pld or a drk or heck a whm justifying their refresh.

[Aeni]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

Tipsy is right, I'm also certain that the MND modifier only works on the effect that guillotine has (Which is also what the TP does as well) which is silence. Doesn't matter if I have 20 MND or 100 MND, use it at 100% TP or 300% TP, guillotine is just a strong WS because of the four hit potential and when subbing a WAR, the possibilities of double attack and criticals going off on those hits makes it even better.

To the DRKs from a RDM:

I believe a lot of time y'all don't get refreshed at all is because RDMs commonly see DRKs not casting spells AT ALL. So when the RDM parties with a DRK, they disregard them as needing refresh because in most parties they actually don't.

I can also make generalizations, but I rather not.

Coming from a DRK + RDM (2 separate toons mind you) I can honestly say that most DRKs do not bother casting BECAUSE of the plethora of lazy mages. Case in fact? In the absence of a DRK, you find RDMs still not refreshing the PLD, WHM, BLM, SMN, etc. So, what kind of excuses are you going to give on that?

When you've gone for a long time being at the bottom of a refresh list and most of the time forgotten, of course you'll ration your MP. For the most part, they are obviously saving stun ... which is a life saver against many monster TP moves out there which has an aoe component. For that measly ~20-30mp (can't recall atm, haven't played my DRK much in ages) you potentially save 100-200mp worth of heals and possible wipe in some situations (goblin bomb toss)

[Tipsy]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

When you've gone for a long time being at the bottom of a refresh list and most of the time forgotten, of course you'll ration your MP.

Exactly. It becomes second nature when you're a dark knight to use your MP wisely. If you've never played DRK to 75, it's really hard to understand -without experience- on how we get pushed aside as a melee and not someone worth refreshing.

However, there are times when you have very competant RDMs in your group, and there are times, like Aeni said, where you don't. Just like any job.

[Armando]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

Nay, MND does affect its damage. But when it takes about 5-6 MND to get a 1 DMG increase which translates into about 8 more damage on a good Guillotine, it's easy to think it's not helping.

[Aaramis]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

"However, there are times when you have very competant RDMs in your group, and there are times, like Aeni said, where you don't. Just like any job."

Having both DRK and RDM above 50, I can see both sides of the coin in this argument.
However, I can assure you that as a RDM, competency isn't the issue. It's about prioritizing.

Refresh costs 40 MP. It returns 150 MP.
So if I refresh myself + 3 others, I'm actually losing MP. Not to mention the extra MP lost due to enfeebles, MBs, cures, etc.

And let's be honest here, ensuring the RDM, WHM and PLD have MP is more important to the party's survival then making sure the DRK has MP.

So it all depends on the PT makeup, IMO.
If there's only 2 or 3 people with MP, then I'll gladly refresh the DRK.
In slightly more MP-based PTs, I may only give DRK Refresh every 2 or 3 cycles (i.e. once every 10min or so).

But if it's a group where *everyone* has MP and is begging for Refresh, then I have to prioritize.
And with a job that access to Refresh items as early as lvl 50 (Parade Gorget), DRK isn't the #1 concern.

But yes, I do try to Refresh DRK when I can. Same with BLU. They're just not #1 priority.

On the flip side, as mentioned above, absorbs cost a fair amount of MP. If you abs-AGI, TP, and STR all in one battle, that's 90MP gone. And almost double that if you have to Stun a lot.
So even if you Aspir as often as possible, you'll be out of MP in 2 or 3 fights. Which makes Sanction Refresh (and most seem to go for Sanction - food duration instead) or Parade Gorgets or those items a necessity.
*OR*, the DRK can save most MP for just Stun and abs-TP, which will make his/her MP last longer and require less downtime for the PT.
It all depends.

[DakAttack]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

Well, at certain levels, they may be using this tool, which would lower their accuracy slightly...

Edit:

Forgot to say: I leveled DRK to Lv.42, parsed most of it, didn't notice accuracy trouble beyond not capping Scythe and Great Sword. Static'ed with a DRK on RDM in Lv.50's. No accuracy problem there, either. DRK's accuracy problem is mostly a myth--it's no worse than other melee jobs.

It wasn't always a myth. Back in the day one of your only sources of Accuracy was the Life Belt, because Sushi didn't exist. Most Dark Knights were still using Scythes all the way up until sixty or so, and the scythe had a huge delay. Missing three times in a row was huge.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

the scythe had a huge delay. Missing three times in a row was huge.

Not to say missing a few times in a row has no impact, but, really, delay of weapon has nothing to do with accuracy. You're confusing the effect of inaccuracy (less "even" DoT) on large delay weapon with accuracy (% of time swings connect) itself.

I was addressing the issue of DRK's accuracy with two-handed Sword and Scythe, and only that.

[Tipsy]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

Aramis: I understand your arguement, but, don't find it necessary to Refresh the DRK every fight. All we need is 1 or 2 every 6 fights or so..(at end game maybe 1 or 2 every 10~) if that. Like you said, Sanction / Parade gorget / Plastron or what not, helps a great deal, but a refresh to help us along every chain or so, isn't too much to ask. And yes, it all depends on the party setup.


Also, I agree with alot of what you're saying except,

However, I can assure you that as a RDM, competency isn't the issue.

Alot of times it is the issue. You might be a competent RDM using priority in different situations but, some RDMs don't even believe in refreshing DRKs. There have been lots of times where I asked for refresh and either a; never got it or b; got an answer like "Wow, I've never had to refresh a DRK before." or "I'm not used to refreshing DRKs." something along those lines. So competency is an issue, to an extent.

[DakAttack]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

Not to say missing a few times in a row has no impact, but, really, delay of weapon has nothing to do with accuracy. You're confusing the effect of inaccuracy (less "even" DoT) on large delay weapon with accuracy (% of time swings connect) itself.

I was addressing the issue of DRK's accuracy with two-handed Sword and Scythe, and only that.

I'm not confusing anything. If you're swinging half as many times per fight as the person next to you, who has just as much accuracy as you do, and you miss two or three times in a row it's going to seem a lot worse than if the person who swinging twise as fast misses just as much.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

I'm not confusing anything. If you're swinging half as many times per fight as the person next to you, who has just as much accuracy as you do, and you miss two or three times in a row it's going to seem a lot worse than if the person who swinging twise as fast misses just as much.

I don't disagree that it would "seem a lot worse", but why should I care about the appearance? I care about what is.

A DRK's DoT output is: (attack rate) x (avg. dmg per hit) x (Accuracy).

That accuracy is not less than other melees. Those who say the accuracy is less bought into the myth/lie/misconception. Those who confuse the "appearance" or the attack rate with accuracy is just... confused.

Edit:

This is the original statement:

DRK's accuracy problem is mostly a myth--it's no worse than other melee jobs

Notice that it doesn't talk about "appearance" anywhere; it was a simple statement about accuracy, and only accuracy.

[DakAttack]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

A DRK's DoT output is: (attack rate) x (avg. dmg per hit) x (Accuracy).

That's theoretical. If you flip a coin 100 times it's not going to be 50 heads and 50 tails.

[Omni]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

It matters that it 'seems slower' because in essence, for melee every battle is a race to 100 tp to ws the mob to death.

So if you're not able to tp to 100 each fight consistantly and use a ws you -are- missing out because your pt depends on your weaponskill to take a nice chunk of hp from the mob which allows you to push and maintain high chains.

This isnt to say that missing a ws chance one fight out of 50 will have a huge impact but if you continually have trouble to ws every fight it begins to show in your pt's performance.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: when i party with dark knights why dont they use any absorbs ; ;

That's theoretical.

"Statistical" is a better word.

If you're a "statistic skeptic", you can just level up DRK from scratch (roll a new character if you have to). Equip it well, and keep an eye on the parser.

I did that, and kept a close eye on the actual accuracy measured. What did the measurements say? About the same accuracy as other melees, if they have similar gears (save weapons) and food.

* * *

I leveled DRK to 42 long before the two-handed weapon update. My DRK usually was not the top DD when party had other well equipped melees. But, I didn't have accuracy problem--the parser said I was keeping up with other melee in accuracy.

If you want to say that it's a problem back then that DRK output lower damage than similarly geared DD jobs, that's one thing. However, the claim of low accuracy is baseless, and false.