Abs-TP Discussion

[Aeni]

In another thread, I posited serious possibilities for DRKs being more widely accepted into end game with the recent additions. One of these additions was the spell Absorb-TP. (First two screens)

Now, to the meat of the discussion. Just how effective is this? Exactly how does it work? Does this prove anything about how monsters use their TP abilities?

Now for some screens on what I observed last night (I dual boxed to get that key item for Teleport-Vazhl for Akemie and lucked out and got it within 40 minutes)


Here, I feel that the time is "right" to steal a bit of TP off shadow-boy so I don't get smacked with his nasty Dimensional Death. I think I had maybe 5 hits into him and Akemie maybe 6 or 7 swings as well. He's probably "Close" to a TP move, I thought, and absorbed him.

I got decent amount, but I wasn't sure if that's *all* he got. Then I got to thinking, hmmm... how much TP does he get from us?

Not a couple of swings later, he uses his TP move.

Several questions arised:

(1) Was this a TP move in the first place? Yet, what do Shadows do with their TP if it isn't? Some Shadows I fought last night had used this move two or three times in one battle... JAs with no timers? WTF...

(2) How quickly do these monsters get TP? How much TP do they get if they hit us? How much TP do we give them if we hit him? How much TP does our WSs give the monsters when we use it (Matters not if it's a multi-hit or a single-hit WS)

(3) Does Abs-TP give TP to the monster? How much does it give?

(4) If Abs-TP is not as effective as I thought in reducing the number of TP moves a monster can use in battle, then exactly what benefits are there other than "being able to get TP?" This begs the question, because if I recall correctly, the samurai (SAM) are TP masters. We DRKs are not.

In a sense, I have some mixed feelings about this addition, especially the more I use it in different situations. If this gives DRKs too much TP, expect to see this spell "nerfed." On a side note, I'd rather see these absorb spells implemented instead:

Abs-Acc
Abs-Atk
Abs-Eva
Abs-Def
Abs-RAcc
Abs-RAtk

LOL >.>

[Tyros]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

I enjoyed playing in another party last night and experimenting with Abs-TP.

I have seen what you have also. I will absorb 50ish tp from a mob and a couple swings later, the mob uses a tp move. I really don't understand it. My guess is that mobs may save their tp at times and have over 100 tp and that even if you take 50 tp, it may leave them at, say 85%.

I have also noticed a rather large increase in flat out resists. Not absorb 1 or 2 tp, but simply, The Mob Resisted the Spell.

All in all I enjoy the spell. I think we will need to learn a bit more on monster behavior (in reguards to their TP use).

Also, I understand that sams see this as a threat to them, but in all honesty, I have always thought of SAM as a Skill Chain Master (Capable of opening and closing many different chains), not just tp machines.

[Maju]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

Mobs gain TP far faster than players. The Shadow simply had enough TP to use it even after you drained 68 from it. In a PT situation the mob goes to 300% in a few seconds because they gain so much TP from being hit.

[Tirrock]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

I believe the numbers are like 10% TP gained on a spell that does damage, and your base TP gain +2 on TP gained a swing. I can't remember how much TP they get when they connect hits, but it's probably more than they should, considering their delay.

Monsters tend to save up their TP while they're above 20% HP and they just use it randomly. Once they get below 20%, they tend to use TP as soon as they get 100%.

[Stooky]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

I can not wait till I can use it. Seems handy for tp gain. I highly doubt it would do anything to the mob since there tp gain, but I is nice for your self. =P

[Armando]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

Mobs gain TP far faster than players. The Shadow simply had enough TP to use it even after you drained 68 from it. In a PT situation the mob goes to 300% in a few seconds because they gain so much TP from being hit.

This is most likely what happened. Absorb-TP shouldn't give the mob TP; only actions that do damage directly (with the possible exception of Shield Bash/Weapon Bash, since these don't have any TP attributed to them for the user, unless they give the mob 10 TP like spells) should give a mob TP. Note that Spikes and Enspells don't count towards that, though.

I believe the numbers are like 10% TP gained on a spell that does damage, and your base TP gain +2 on TP gained a swing. I can't remember how much TP they get when they connect hits, but it's probably more than they should, considering their delay.

Monsters tend to save up their TP while they're above 20% HP and they just use it randomly. Once they get below 20%, they tend to use TP as soon as they get 100%.

That's pretty close reality. Mobs get 10 TP per spell that lands for more than 0 damage (not counting DoT; however, if a DoT spell can cause damage, such as Dia or Bio, it will give it TP as long as it lands for more than 0.) They get your TP +3 every time you strike them. They get TP just like us based on their Delay every time they hit you; the typical mob attacks every 240 Delay (4 secs) and thus gains 6.4 TP. Subtle Blow applies to both spells and attacks. For reference, Subtle Blow I is 5%, and Subtle Blow II is 10%.

You are also correct on their behavior: above 20%, there's a random chance after each attack round that it'll decide to use its TP (incidentially, this is how most one-shottings occur...the mob decides to Double/Triple Attack AND use its TP move on the same attack round, and everything occurs near-instantly.) Below 20%, they will use their TP as soon as it reaches 100+. If the mob has 100+ TP and its HP drops below 20%, it will use whatever TP it had instantly. If the mob has 100+ TP, and reaches <20% HP, yet no targets are within range at that moment, it will use its longest-range TP move as soon as a target comes within the range of that move.

While I'm not a DRK, so I have no experience with it, I would assume that Absorb-TP will absorb X ammount of TP based on your Dark Skill; if it's resisted, you'll only drain a percentage of that, and of course you're also limited to the quanitity the mob already has. Another possibility is that rather than draining a static number based on your Dark skill, it could drain a percentage of the mob's TP based on your Dark skill.

The best way to check would be to go 70Main/35 BST or get a 35+ BST friend, damage a mob, Charm it, check its TP via <pettp>, Leave it, Absorb-TP it, Charm, and check its TP again. Or, instead of feeding it TP yourself, you could make it fight other mobs. Just take note of wether or not it hit you in between both Charms, because obviously it'll have that much more TP when you check its post-Absorb TP.

As for its uses, since mobs won't save TP once they're below 20% HP, using Absorb-TP then would delay its next TP move. You could also Stun a long-charging TP move and Absorb-TP it right after in hopes of draining enough to disable further TP moves for a bit.

[Khaeos]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

Aeni, I'ma hop on a mess with you later...just cause .

I think most mobs have a TP-Regen sort of ability. Some people thought it was NM/HNM only, but this may prove it otherwise. Any special ability a mob uses is a TP ability. Sort of like how Bomb Toss and their other goblin attack (Goblin Rush? Been awhile) both run off TP, one being physical damage and the other being Magical/Other.

I highly doubt the mobs gain TP the same way we do, with a set amount for each weapon and then 2% each hit. So I'd say Auto-TP.

[pearlsea]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

Mobs gain TP faster cause if your bashed by 4+ DD all those hits add up

4(2)+6 an attack round is about an average of 14TP per round which is not bad for a delay of about an axe. the formua being- players(average tp given to mob per round per player)+mob tp gained per hit.

I highly doubt the mobs gain TP the same way we do, with a set amount for each weapon and then 2% each hit. So I'd say Auto-TP.

then why would a bst pet not gain crazy tp too? Get an EM pet and attack another EM of the same type and they will have tp at the exact same time.

[Stromgarde]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

Quoting the FFXI Wiki:

Enemies gain TP in the following ways:

* When attacking a player, TP is calculated normally based on Delay. Most enemies have 240 Delay, and gain 6.4 TP per hit.
* When hit by a melee attack, enemies gain the attacker's Base TP + 3.
* When hit by a spell that does direct damage, enemies gain 10 TP.

Now, let's plug some real numbers into that shall we?
PLD, WAR/NIN, THF/NIN, ScytheDRK.
Company Sword, Maneater/Tabarzin, Misericorde/Gully, and Deathscythe.
7+3, (7.3+3+7.6+3)*0.9+(5.1+3+5.6+3)*.9+14.4+3.
I'll round down if it goes to the hundreds due to DWII.

10+18.5+15.0+17.4= 60.9 TP at the start of every fight, assuming all hits connect.

Of course, they don't always (and usually won't) WS at 100%, but it really is quite staggering.

[Icemage]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

I think most mobs have a TP-Regen sort of ability. Some people thought it was NM/HNM only, but this may prove it otherwise. Any special ability a mob uses is a TP ability. Sort of like how Bomb Toss and their other goblin attack (Goblin Rush? Been awhile) both run off TP, one being physical damage and the other being Magical/Other.

I highly doubt the mobs gain TP the same way we do, with a set amount for each weapon and then 2% each hit. So I'd say Auto-TP.

Nope. Definitely not. I did a ton of testing with Cactuars in Western Altepa and worms in various places. They gain TP only in the above listed conditions (other than HNM, who do generally have Auto-TP).

If Cactuars had Auto-TP, I wouldn't come anywhere near them as a Taru.


Icemage

[Tirrock]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

The only non NM monster I know of with a meditate like trait are crawlers in mount zhayolm during fire weather.

[Aeni]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

then why would a bst pet not gain crazy tp too? Get an EM pet and attack another EM of the same type and they will have tp at the exact same time.

Maybe because the pet charmed takes on the likeness of the charmer. In other words, monsters function differently from adventurers. Pets follow different rules from monsters. I'm very wary of these tests, because of this fact alone. I don't agree or disagree with all the statements made in this thread regarding how monster gain tp, I'm just saying that some of these tests ought to be taken with a grain of salt if they're done w/o an official word by SE as to exactly how you define what is a monster and what isn't.

I think this is why when a BST charms a monster and turns it into a pet, they don't get the list of TP moves a pet can do and choose from it >.> Not because it's an act of balancing or what have you, but it's because when monsters become pets, they take on properties similar to that of your NPC buddy.

[Lmnop]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

except here's numero uno test:

walk out of town, put up shadows (blink spell + stoneskin, or just utsusemi to be safe and easy). Find a monster, whack him 3 times (during which time, you get hit 0 times because you're blink tanking), then charm him. his tp registers your 3 hits. He'll have no previous tp, and he was a monster until moments ago. Thus, any sort of "charmed" function that kicks in to change his stats to that of a pet wouldn't have kicked in yet. It would be remarkable if S-E actually did have their own tp growth in addition to keeping track of the number of times a mob has hit and been hit, as well as the normal tp gain of all attacks that did hit it. And thus, when the mob turned pet, it used the tally to create the new tp amounts, whiping the old. But, that would mean that there would be a total of 3 tp growths: player tp gain, monster tp gain, and pet tp gain.

It's just... implausable. S-E is lazy. You can see it in things like how when they originally changed Utsusemi, it adjusted Third Eye as well, because they likely share a module of code. Or giving SMNs more and more shit that they'll never use because they're bottlenecked on a one minute timer. >.>

[Aeni]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

except here's numero uno test:

walk out of town, put up shadows (blink spell + stoneskin, or just utsusemi to be safe and easy). Find a monster, whack him 3 times (during which time, you get hit 0 times because you're blink tanking), then charm him. his tp registers your 3 hits. He'll have no previous tp, and he was a monster until moments ago. Thus, any sort of "charmed" function that kicks in to change his stats to that of a pet wouldn't have kicked in yet. It would be remarkable if S-E actually did have their own tp growth in addition to keeping track of the number of times a mob has hit and been hit, as well as the normal tp gain of all attacks that did hit it. And thus, when the mob turned pet, it used the tally to create the new tp amounts, whiping the old. But, that would mean that there would be a total of 3 tp growths: player tp gain, monster tp gain, and pet tp gain.

It's just... implausable. S-E is lazy. You can see it in things like how when they originally changed Utsusemi, it adjusted Third Eye as well, because they likely share a module of code. Or giving SMNs more and more shit that they'll never use because they're bottlenecked on a one minute timer. >.>

More incentives to level up my BST I suppose. I need to get to the uncharm level so that I can test this out better. Basically, go do what you said to do (BST/NIN) and I'll run two tests.

Test 1, your test as outlined above.

Test 2, which is I charm an EM. I have it fight a mirror image of itself. I spam <pettp> call with each hit (By or against the mob).

Comparing the two should give a clear result on how similar or dissimilar the tp rate is. There were many TP changes from the past few patches already, so it's actually a good idea to update any information since more than likely, a lot of the information out there is already outdated.

[DrkMateo]

Re: Abs-TP Discussion

This spell is a god send, especially if you stack with Sam's Shikikoyo ability.

Last night in a tp burn in Caedarva on Spongi Flies:

Guillotine, Abs-TP (drained 93 tp off the thing), Guillotine again, Shikikoyo for 200 tp, and a third guillotine went off.

My ABS-TP averages anywhere from 40-93 with this spell, it's amazing, sadly it works like any other dark magic type spell, undead and other dark type mobs have a heavy resist to it though I do intend to stack it with dark seal as soon as I am able to. That should prove most interesting.

To the OP-
Abs-Acc = Abs-Dex
Abs-Atk = Abs-Str
Abs-Eva = Abs-Agi
Abs-Def = Abs-Vit
Abs-RAcc = Abs-Agi
Abs-RAtk = This is a nonissue unless your in die en-masse. (Damn EES... -_-)