Greatsword

[Wiseman40]

Re: Greatsword

By the way, what I meant by 'noble' in my above post was not the aristotelian, virtuous noble, but rather the aristocratic noble when pertaining to the dark knight.

The samurai, yes, should be a more virtuous image in the sense of virtue being 'good'.

The dark knight nobility is more along the lines of social status than personal values. This is rooted in the idea of knighthood bering a hereditary title in Europe that was for many years purchasable. In fact, it still is 'purchasable' in the sense that it is a title given to you by your successes, and that success in your career is one method, but also by donation to charity, etc. Although the modern knighthood is awarded (generally) to people of higher moral values, for a great length of time morality had nothing to do with it - it was simply one of many titles carried by the nobility, which announced your elite standing within that group.

/endrant

Simply put my vision of a dark knight is more of an ambitious prince whose lust for power caused him to practice black magic and sacrifice his soul.

That being said - there are mixed or ambiguous signs of the dark knight's actual story in Final Fantasy. Some of it does involve what I've written about above, but if I understand correctly, the FFXI dark knight is more of a servant of the natural order of life and death...

[Aeni]

Re: Greatsword

Wiseman,

If I had my way, I'd sub WAR to my DRK all day, everyday. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

A situation does happen, though it might be rare or common, depending on factors, where you can continue to sub WAR. This usually happens if the other DD in the party is already subbing THF or is a main THF. It is pointless to have 2 sets of SATA and one of the SATA is gimping the party in a very big way (Unless we're talking 2 main THFs here, but that will end the discussion and should belong in the THF forum anyway)

However, there was one time when I actually got away w/o subbing THF. Sure, it was very exciting -- and I wanted to emphasize that -- as the risk to steal hate away from the PLD tanking in that party grew steadily throughout the night, but it was only pulled off because we had excellent party members. It was basically a PLD, DRG, DRK and SAM with RDM and BLM healing and nuking and this party would never have gotten off the ground if it wasn't for the fact that all 6 party members were pretty good friends (even if they were in 6 totally distinct LSs) I remember that night vividly. 7K an hour average with 8.5K peak before some JP party crashed our camp. It was NA/EU power all the way in Bibiki Bay for a solid 4 hours...lolorz. No THF subbing btw ;P

[Wiseman40]

Re: Greatsword

Well I've gone to great lengths at this point to gather opinions on the drk/thf vs drk/war thing, and it seems that /thf is important enough that it becomes necessary. As a result I just can't bring myself to do it.
I'll be playing monk, warrior, ninja, or possibly corsair when it comes out...

[Jei]

Re: Greatsword

mnk/thf is a skillchain closer too. not as commonly used as drk/thf tho, can probably get away with just /war.

[lionx]

Re: Greatsword

Would it be too much to say you can sub WAR(and be SMART of course) when you have a PLD tank? I wouldnt expect a WAR or NIN tank to really hold hate as well if a DRK subbed WAR so THF sub for those, but if theres a competent PLD tank is there any reason to sub THF really..?

[Aeni]

Re: Greatsword

Would it be too much to say you can sub WAR(and be SMART of course) when you have a PLD tank? I wouldnt expect a WAR or NIN tank to really hold hate as well if a DRK subbed WAR so THF sub for those, but if theres a competent PLD tank is there any reason to sub THF really..?

Out of... well, I can't remember that far back, but I think it went something like this: I partied with no less than roughly 20 PLDs (all different, I'm not in static) from 63sh to 71. And maybe 8 or 9 NINs as well.

Remember, my memory is failing me the longer I'm not playing this game and also there were many short parties (depressing, yes I know, but I don't complain)

Of the roughly 20 PLDs, there were only a few very good ones that I partied with. A Galkan PLD who was much higher than me in KRT (Like 4 level diff) but also in my LS. An Elvaan who I partied only once in Bibiki Bay. A Mithran PLD whom I partied with roughly 3 times on coincidence. A Hume PLD in Moon. A Tarutaru PLD in Bibiki Bay. 5 of 20 PLDs that I thought were very good. 1 from each race (REPRESENT!) and at different level intervals. 2 of the 5 were JP players.

However, of the remaining 15 or so PLDs, they pretty much borderlined from average to suck. Some of them were JP PLDs as well who didn't understand the concept of SATA and other such issues.

Of the 5 that was very good, only 1 understood the mechanics of SATA and was able to release hate (Galka PLD) on cue enough for the 2nd voke to pull the mob off. It worked beautifully, especially in KRT where this was important (Since you're quite limited on SC and job combination that can deal good damage on undead)

Of the remaining 4, I judged that only 1 of them I could explicitly trust in subbing WAR. That's how difficult PLD job is if a DRK subs WAR. Now, all 5 of these good PLDs can do their job very well. No question about it. But it takes a certain kind of nut to hold hate off a DRK/WAR and this degrades exp flow and makes it unstable. Been there, done that.

BTW, it was the Mithra PLD that held hate like cement. I've never seen a PLD still maintain hate on a back-to-back double attack from "Giraffes", get Cure IV bombs and still maintain convincing control of the battle. Only that Mithra could. Oh yeah, did I mention the player was a "she" IRL?

But back to the discussion, 1 of 20 PLD whom I could explicitly trust to sub WAR. That is not a good ratio. Even if all 5 of the top PLDs I partied with I had confidence in, that's still only 25% of PLDs in general. Not a good ratio at all.

Of the NINs, half of them flunked at tanking. I'm serious. Rank 10 players to boot.

[Smasholays]

Re: Greatsword

No one would even let me sub WAR, always THF. Even in the merit parties, it's still /THF... I want to sub WAR. ;_;

[Khidir]

Re: Greatsword

rank doesn't say crap about a person. Its just data. That is coming from rank7-10 ppl lol

no im not trying to be the devils advocate

[lionx]

Re: Greatsword

Man no wonder...crappy PLD tanks...i mean you shouldnt be an idiot and do SE LR Berserk rwar rwar WS and gain hate and die...but if you are a smart DRK, and your PLD tank is competent, i honestly dont see why you cannot sub WAR...NIN and WAR tanks i understand... ._.

But on the occasion you DO have a good tank, did you ever sub WAR? Or was it THF still? >_> THF seems so crap for gaining TP...like seriously..

[LionHeart0740]

Re: Greatsword

I have always had a WAR sub and i have never had a problem. I have always used a Greatsword also. atm i am trying to lvl scythe and thf though, cuz some parties want me to use a scythe. None of my parties have made a big deal about my WAR sub but my LS does so i would suggest levelin both just to be safe, and keep your weapons leveled too...any thing that increases party invites is good...

[Khidir]

Re: Greatsword

What about /sam and /rng or does that only apply to thf and sam for tp build

[Brodrik]

Re: Greatsword

I've never made use of /thf to do hate control. I've really only seen that even possible when closing a skillchain where the opener turns the mob -- and then, with most tanks it only works part of the time. By maybe 70 it was much more useul to always close with a SA Spinning Slash and let the MB kill the thing (or nearly kill).

The primary use for /thf is always to up the damage of Spinning Slash, and it does that well.

Thankfully since switching to merit parties, I only use /thf in HNM.

[Aeni]

Re: Greatsword

But on the occasion you DO have a good tank, did you ever sub WAR? Or was it THF still? >_> THF seems so crap for gaining TP...like seriously..

Strangely, I did not see this and this topic is pretty old.

I still sub THF. There's always going to be a need to pin the hate on the tank until you get to 73sh or possibly 74. The gears do not come into play at 71/72 for PLDs. There's an excellent amount of gear for a PLD to use later, but that's not really the issue either. When monsters start to con VT, even a half-assed NIN can still tank decently enough (Unless said NIN was a retard in the first place)

I'm sure once I get into the upper levels (74-75), for places like Sky, I can sub WAR. However, in ToAU areas, I might still be called upon to sub THF or even NIN for TP burn PT (I'm sorry, but I will NOT DO SO because I strongly feel it is an outrageous abuse of the system and don't mind foregoing a possible 12k/hr session)

You don't understand that for DRKs, they don't need JAs to pull hate off a PLD who isn't paying attention. I think you're getting yourself a bit deluded into thinking DRKs are so weak with a sub THF that somehow that weakness is identical in a sub WAR. Trust me, when a DRK subs WAR with very good equipment and skills, then the tanks are in for a challenge. Especially when they crit as much as I do

[DrkMateo]

Re: Greatsword

Drk/war with pld tank or uber pwnage nin (Scythe)
Drk/thf for HNM's/Gods or traditional MB pt (Use gsword for Light.)
Drk/sam for Dynamis, Ballista, and things you can't get behind like Fafnir. (Scythe)
Drk/nin for Dynamis, burn pt with nin tank or war tank.

Level scythe and gsword, try and keep gsword close to cap and do scythe most of the way til 66

[Brodrik]

Re: Greatsword

Drk/war with pld tank or uber pwnage nin (Scythe)
Drk/thf for HNM's/Gods or traditional MB pt (Use gsword for Light.)
Drk/sam for Dynamis, Ballista, and things you can't get behind like Fafnir. (Scythe)
Drk/nin for Dynamis, burn pt with nin tank or war tank.

Level scythe and gsword, try and keep gsword close to cap and do scythe most of the way til 66

Very true. Though vs. Fafnir I've used Drk/Whm for survivability. I've also been using Drk/War in Limbus with a Greatsword (Drk/War with Gsd? Shocking!) because the mobs are weak enough and we run heavy enough on black mages that they key is pulling in some extra TP (and the half-assed Meditate sub, while useful against HNM, is less so in Dynamis). And of course Drk/Nin is useful for Limbus and for various BCNM, HNM, or sky farming where you don't want as much to get slugged by blinkable AoE.

I've also used Drk/War in some really good burn parties -- things like Pld/Nin, Rng/War, Thf/War, Drk/War, Rdm/Whm, and Brd/Whm, the damage blinking ability of /Nin might not really be substantial enough a factor to drop the extra damage from /War (I'm thinking Puks here, mostly).