Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Who cares about MBing when it will do less damage than a swing of my scythe and take more time?

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I want to hark back to the origional topic. Two things stuck out - complaints over damage over time and less-than-useful magic. It seems you are better at one-off damage, dosen't this balance the first issue?

What is "one-off damage"?

On the second issue - magic adding no TP - it seems the perfect option would be an Absorb-TP type spell. THis is much cleaner than having spells gain TP (why not sub WHM and spam Cure for TP?). Also, a hate-reducing spell could be good, useful with your 2hr.

The idea that most people derrive about DRK is that it should be a melee who uses magic to reach his full potential, helping other DD's reach their's at the same time. Absorb-TP would help, but I find most people piss themselves the moment they hear mention of it. Gaining TP for casting spells is a little wierd, to me. A hate reducing spell might work, but I immagine something like that would be more suited as a job ability. Unless you wanted to have that be what "Confuse" does. It would make sense.

Complaining your magic is weak seems like a RDM complaining he can't melee, except you can occasionaly use your spells, not like the poor rdm & his sword ^^. The spells seem fairly useful - Poison does work, Sleep having limited use? Yeah, the kind that saves your arse. Gotta agree on bio tho, wouldn't want to overwrite that dia! Well sometimes you might..... nah. On elemental spells, hmm how many DD can MB a skillchain?

Yeah, I guess, but Red Mage has one hell of a crutch to fall back on. They aren't losing anything by not being able to melee in exp. The DRK is though because if his magic is not effective, and his melee is inherently behind other jobs on it's own because he is supposed to use that magic to make it better... then he has a reason to complain.

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I'd assume "one-off" = the heavy-handed skillchain ender. I.e. closing light with spinning slash. Abs-TP seems too much like Samurai would get ticked off, but on a minute recast and with Abs-level hate, it really wouldn't be overpowered (20 TP while the pull is coming in -- yay.) Of course, the real problem with DRK is their hate already. You pull with Abs-TP and then give it a Abs-STR when it comes in, and your tank will hate you.... Unless you're drk/nin using axe to open light for a thf...

I still think war/anythingbutnin with greataxe is getting way underloved. I'd say Scythe suffers the same thing as Greataxe, but at least Scythe is weapon of choice for /war or any time you're doing solo WS parties. The more I post on this topic, the more I think about how thieves use a one-handed weapon and just seem rediculously weak. Everyone says they're ok but in a party setting where you don't need them for hate control, their WS damage is barely higher than any other melee, and their DoT sucks.

When I look at the jobs as they are now, I think sam, drg, and drk need more of a way to protect themselves while doing what they do best. Monk was S-E's attempt at what war/nin is: a DD that will inevitably get hate and as such, is built to put up with it. Hence chakra, dodge, B rank evasion, high HP and VIT, Guard, and Counter. I've seen monk threads before where monks are takling about how their damage output is higher with full counter merits than it is with full kick attack merits because counter's higher activation rate is put to use with the rate that they take hate. The only problem is that they still sink MP if they go gung-ho and get too much hate. So it really does seem to be coincidence that the 2-hander jobs are the ones that don't have an effective method to protect themselves.

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Who gives a shit if Samurai get pissed off? Seriously, why would you care?

Draining stats and attributes is very DRK-ish. What is more evil than stealing an enemie's hard-earned TP and then using it against him?

It all depends on how the spell is implemented.

Void
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 70
MP: 50
Recast: 2 minutes
Durration: 1 minute
Effect: Gradually steals TP from an enemy.


-- It would be a DoT TP-drain spell. Something like 2 TP every tick for 1 minute.

This means it is slower than mediditate, but it also reduces enemy TP a little bit. Also, unlike Meditate, this TP is not free. It is not guaranteed either. It may be resisted or the DRK may have no MP to cast the spell. Additionally, it will most likely never work on undead or dark-based mobs. It would provide just enough of a boost to DRK TP-gain to give them a leg-up without being over-powered.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

As I understand it, DRKs only have a weaker melee if a war used a particular sub with a particular gear setup. Otherwise, with a pure DRK vs a pure WAR with no subjobs, shadows, or dual wielding, DRK is probably more likely to come out on top. However, it is the players bastardization and exploitation of the /nin sub that allows warrior to do what it does.

Nanatsu,

A competant WAR/MNK can outdamage me, especially one that wields Gaxe and has Raging Rush, arguably one of the most devastating WS with or without their 2 hour ability. That job combo was actually a WAR's pure offense combination before the advent of the WAR/NIN combination. In fact, it still is, if you have the right setup and equipment. You have boost to stack onto a WS and there's a tiny cooldown penalty to use it.

A WAR/THF is, arguably, a lot better DD and hate manager than a DRK/THF. Again, with Raging Rush and Sturmwind, you have to appreciate the raw power and form of a Warrior in offensive-minded role.

This is just 2 job combinations outside of a subjob ninja combination. What's the tally so far? DRK 0, WAR 3? WAR/DRG, I understand, is also another awesome job combination ...


About the defense part ... a WAR/MNK (after all the mages d/c'd from our party -- an omgwtf moment to be sure) managed to take several hits from the raptor in KT before dying. I'd say a good 8-9 hits and evading several more...

I lasted a mere 3 hits, even after swapping in an SH, AF and an Emp Hairpin. Trust me, we can't tank for **** on anything that cons higher than a T ...

I will respond later ... I have to re-read all of these posts and digest all this discussion. I'm having a cruddy day at work and just wanted to reply to the first post on this page ...

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I think that equipment has grown to the point that war/thf will always outdamage a war/mnk, unfortunately. The benefit of Focus vs SA is what it boils down to. I might make some suggestions to your defense set, Aeni:

I used to tank (as war) with around -30 evasion and pop aggressor. This was war/mnk, btw. I've war/nin tanked with -50 evasion and aggressor. Reason: on IT mobs, my chances of evading are around 5% regardless of gear. With enough agi/evasion, I could prolly push it to 10%... maybe, that's asking a lot. the 5% is just because you can't push it past that baseline. You would be better off macroing on dual phalanx rings and AF or whatever that has some decent defense.

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I don't think you are quite grasping the reason for talking about WAR: It's a powerful class that seems to win-out in every situation with every sub.

They aren't lacking anything. Instead they get everyone else's cake. Not just a piece, but the whole damn thing.

DRK doesn't even have a clear advantage over WAR when it comes to single-hit WS damage.

Steel Cyclone easily matches Spiral Hell.

SE goofed up big time when they made all the other melee DD so dependent on WAR to do any kind of reasonably DoT.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I used to tank (as war) with around -30 evasion and pop aggressor. This was war/mnk, btw. I've war/nin tanked with -50 evasion and aggressor. Reason: on IT mobs, my chances of evading are around 5% regardless of gear. With enough agi/evasion, I could prolly push it to 10%... maybe, that's asking a lot. the 5% is just because you can't push it past that baseline. You would be better off macroing on dual phalanx rings and AF or whatever that has some decent defense.

But how many DRKs do you know carrying that kind of equipment with them? You realize when SE puts +eva on the AF flanchards to indicate that there might be a snowball chance in hell that a DRK could actually use that to their advantage. I just use +eva to replace the -eva gears to reduce maximum damage (We all know that AGI reduces the amount of critical damage, while VIT just increases the damage curve - evasion can affect both accuracy in the per hit category as well as the kinds of damage you can receive)

This is why a NIN without shadows and a good evasion set can last longer than a DRK with a high VIT set, even though the DRK probably has more HP than the NIN and this is assuming that the monster has 100% accuracy (Even after throwing in evasion modifiers)

Heck ... even counterstanced MNKs with only 50 def points can last 3-10 times longer than a DRK ...

Also, higher VIT means nothing ... when you don't have the defense boost to hit the ceiling on the defense curve ... that's like, Stats 101 ...

[DakAttack]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

When I leveled Warrior we couldn't tank, and we couldn't DD, yet I tanked anyways. Now they're all called DD, which narrows down the possibilities in a party, but there's few who'd know how to tank anyways. SA, TA, Meditate, etc, are all weaker when subbed, but as far as I know Dual Wield speeds are not. I saw an awesome Drk/Nin, but the skillchain combinations are quite limited when using a sword.

As far as I've seen Warriors and Dark Knights are at about the same strength. Dark Knights do more damage per hit, but have slower weapons. Warriors that dual wield have the same problem as Thieves, where sometimes almost all the damage on a single hit is mitigated by the enemy. Dark Knights have several weapon skills that are low hit to multi hit, while most of the Warrior's weapon skills are multi hit. That gives them the opportunity to do more damage as well as to do less. What warriors don't have is Stun, which is priceless in certain parties. What Warriors have that Dark Knights don't have is Agressor that makes those multi hit weapon skills stronger.

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Stun isn' worth giving up so much innate melee strength to become a DRK as opposed to a WAR. All it gives us the luxury of helping people with CoP 3-5. 'cause they ask in droves, though they dump you as soon as that is over. In any other fight a BLM is a vastly supperior choice to a DRK.

I don't really want the same melee power as a WAR. It's true, I do have magic. Instead, I would rather have more of that magic make a difference in battle. I wouldn't mind being a bit slower in TP and lower ranked in DoT if it meant I could cast a few spells that made the other melee excell even more.

A poster on Allakhazam suggested these:

Defense
1 minute timer, delivers an attack that removes a buff from the target and gives it to the DRK.

As well as...

Contagion Transfer
2 minute timer, delivers an attack that transmits a negative buff on the DRK to the mob.

I've suggested spells that would do this, but these JA's would give us that slight boost in TP gain and dot, while at the same time giving us more utility. Making them actually attacks would mean we could stick with our normal gear setups too.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

(We all know that AGI reduces the amount of critical damage, while VIT just increases the damage curve - evasion can affect both accuracy in the per hit category as well as the kinds of damage you can receive)

I'm going to correct myself before someone else does. I meant to increase the defense curve ... error on my part.

As for adding more abilities to the DRK class ... even just one something is better than nothing. So far, SE has given us nothing. Meanwhile, the status quo remains and unless they blow the dust off that nerf bat, things will just remain the same and unchanged -- potentially getting worse once the newer job classes file in.

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

or they'll introduce a class that ends up being the sub for 2-handing jobs that the nin is for war and... rng.

Aeni, I was talking about defense more than VIT, that's why I suggested phalanx rings (cheap +20 defense between the 2 of them). The reason paladins start to focus on VIT later is because they've jacked their def to the point that the mob is reliably hitting on the low end of the spectrum for damage. Wars don't have that luxury so of course, neither do Drks. However, our gear selections are basically the same (excepting Eisen for a few levels and um.... Koenig) so you and I can both jack our defense up enough to drastically increase our chances of taking low damage.

I think I'll take this opportunity to point out the part of Aeni's post that made me /grin:

But how many DRKs do you know carrying that kind of equipment with them?

... I couldn't agree more. Given, I really overdo this game (been playing since NA release and still not 75), but I believe any job that doesn't make use of equip swaps isn't trying hard enough. Every DD job I've leveled, I've filled up my inventory with a defense set to swap to. The exception is thf, since their evasion is so high, I swap on eva/Agi instead. In one party, we had a beetle that was too hard for us pop on us, aggro, kill our nin, and I held him for I think 4 utsusemi castings while the rest of the party zoned. No Perfect Dodge. This ties into what you were saying about evade... I feel that since it's a strength of thf, I may as well captalize on it. Drk have decent VIT(better than war) and a defense bonus when subbing war, so that's what I would focus on. I see your point in minimizing a weakness, and it's not a shabby idea, but on IT mobs I haven't found it to be useful. Analogy: wearing a Blitz Ring and no other +haste gear. +1% haste won't help and I still have +int on WAR AF. <--- haha I make stupid jokes.

Monks taking damage with counterstance is along the same lines of me doing the same damage to yhoator mandragoras as I do to Wild Rabbits in Ronfaure -- the mobs attacking said monk capped their attack when he was at defense 180, they don't care if it's 40.

/agree with langolier -- up DRK magic. And as Impaction touched on, Dark Knight WS suck 'til 60. That's why S-E needs to make it easier to skill up 2handers: Greataxe Drks rock.

Double Post Edited:
another thing about Drks not bringing defense gear: 96% of warriors don't either. That's why I hate warriors and can't wait 'til they're nerfed.

[nanatsu]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Aeni, I was talking about defense more than VIT, that's why I suggested phalanx rings (cheap +20 defense between the 2 of them). The reason paladins start to focus on VIT later is because they've jacked their def to the point that the mob is reliably hitting on the low end of the spectrum for damage. Wars don't have that luxury so of course, neither do Drks. However, our gear selections are basically the same (excepting Eisen for a few levels and um.... Koenig) so you and I can both jack our defense up enough to drastically increase our chances of taking low damage.

That's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to point out before but I guess I wasn't able to communicate it properly.

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

DRK has TP-gain equip, WS equip, and magic casting equip. Now you want us to toss on tanking gear? For what? And btw, WAR does have Adaman. DRK can't wear Adaman (not the Hauberk set, the platemail i mean) that stuff adds plenty of enmity, VIT, and defense. Three sets of equipment is enough. No one is going to carry four.

You know, to be honest, I'd be happy enough if Last Resort was un-nerfed.

[nanatsu]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

The point I was making earlier wasn't that drks should focus their exp careers on being a viable tank. It was a small part of me trying to point out how wars advantages over drk are few until you toss on a nin sub. At any rate some of my opinions have changed having read some of the stuff on the thread. I just don't believe that drk has the def of a rng. War can't possibly have that much of a defensive advatange over drk if you have access to some of the same high def gear (Adaman or no Adaman. Adaman doesn't automatically make you survive a supernova just because you have it) and I'm going to go and find out for myself if that's true or not.