Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

*pictures of random AFv2 set*

/think

Honestly, Tipsy, you have to wait 70+ levels to use this and only if you're lucky and in a good and consistent Dynamis group.

Is that accessible to all DRKs and at *all* levels? I don't think so. Also, I meant AFv1, not 2, since that is the set that *every* DRK would get, especially now you can upgrade to HQ versions.

So, going back to this whole spell casting discussion ...

Let me word this carefully, in case people out there misread what I posted. I'm all for enfeebling and crippling the monster. We do have unique spells that help with this, but their effect diminishes over time during battles (Depending on, I'm guessing here, how resistant the Monster is to Dark Magic and also how high the caster's Enfeebling + Dark Magic skill is) and also diminishes as you progress in levels. Against tougher monsters, like Kirin, the effect is laughable, if it even lands at all. How helpful is draining 15 VIT points from a monster that might have 400 VIT total and also how helpful would the enfeebling be when it lasts a total of 8 seconds and have it half-life to zero during that span.

Also, let's not kid ourselves here. How many 70+ BLM and RDM still nuke with Tier 2 spells on exp mobs? Raise your hand ... *scans an auditorium devoid of hands* I rest my case.

[Macht]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I only addressed the gear as the ones given as DRK only being suggestive of what DRKs design is.

Aeni, if you look a PLD as well it isn't like they are getting any tier 3 stuff or things that RDM would get that is inline with his abilities either. DRK is design to be DD but to also use their magic for contribution.

Unfortunatly if you look at DRK only gear they stuff is a lot more limited per level compaired to other jobs. Their best gears being the AF2 sets, the AF1+1, and the Black/Onyx gear (Black/Onyx focuses with giving a TON of Attack but also every single piece Enhances "Absorb" Spells, the down side is the monster can hit you for wicked damage as well).

EDIT:

I should also add that even though DRK only gear in comparison to other jobs is a bit more limited, they are also the only job to get 1 ability so well granted that on lv. 50 they get to actually enchance that ability twice. That's right at lv. 50 DRKs is the only job I've seen that gets to enhance one of their abilities twice. Most other jobs never get this, and the only other job I know of so far that gets this pays a penalty for it that DRKs do not.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Actually, there are three pieces of gear that enhance soul eater, but the effect doesn't appear to stack. Regardless, enhancing the ability exacerbates its drawback further; it can be a bloody suicide maneuvre. What's your point anyway? Regardless of the gear they can wear it's obvious DRKs can't be implemented as a magic user because they suck at it. Absorb spells were never about enfeebling the mob so much as buffing your own stats, tier II nukes suck, and you don't even get typical enfeebles without a subjob. Whatever numbers the DRK AF has, the vast majority of gear that you can wear enhances melee stats as a first priority and it's infinitely more accessable than AF+1 and Relic.
Anyways, it doesn't matter how you think DRK was meant to be implemented initially. It's far more important how they can be and actually are used effectively, and that role seems to be stunner who puts out a ridiculously potent single hit SA WS. DRKs don't ignore their spellcasting because they're missing out on some mysterious potential... I mean, it's a stupid argument. The more you cast the less TP you get, and you accomplish nothing by spending your MP anyway. No one's missing any wonderful aspect of DRK, they're just plain hamstrung in VT-IT exp as an SC closer, and they're liable to get killed if they're not using TA.

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Uh, what's the point of all that AF2 when we really don't have anything worthwhile to cast? As has been said absorbs are pointless on HNM if they even stick. RDM/DRK will always be a better stunner than a BLM or a DRK, and nerfing RDM/DRK so stun is 38 would do alot more harm than good.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Aeni, if you look a PLD as well it isn't like they are getting any tier 3 stuff or things that RDM would get that is inline with his abilities either.

Everyone else (DRKs here) posted their say and it seems that, while we may differ in some views as how to go about enhancing or improving the job, we do agree on important points, such as magic casting.

I just wanted to correct you with regards to PLD, however. Their Cure spells, I believe, is on par with what a RDM has ... up to Tier IV in this case. DRKs have nothing beyond Tier 2 for anything ... ANYTHING. If Bio 3 was made available, you can bet SE will figure out a way for BLMs to get it also, not just DRK only. That, to me, is outrageous.

Also, wanted to add that PLDs also get raise and holy ... you can argue about this, but the fact that BLMs have many things DRKs have, but not the other way around, you will see why I'm upset with SE with regards to this issue. DRKs are the bastard children of BLMs while PLDs are a offshoot of their WHM brethren ...

[Karinya]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

It's true that PLD get Cure IV, Protect IV and Shell III, however, they don't get any enfeebling magic whatsoever, any -na spells or any bar spells. DRK may get weaker versions of BLM spells, but they do at least get them (except for the Rasp series and Warp). Sleep, Poison, Bio, Tractor - all learnable by DRK. And let's not forget the absorb spells, unique to DRK (there is no PLD-only spell), and Stun, Drain and Aspir, which DRK learn *before* BLM.

The only spell that PLD learns before, or even at the same level as, any other job is Flash. It's a nice spell, but that doesn't change the fact that it's only one spell.

On the other hand, most PLD spells are healing and enfeebling and therefore PLD don't have to worry about resists; DRK do. And a style that doesn't cast much will often leave them underskilled and give them even *more* resist trouble. Certainly, with many parties nowadays going after IT+++++++, DRK magic has some problems. But there *is* gear to help (see the other thread on DRK magic that's active right now), and DRK magic *is* useful against opponents of a reasonable level. (And Absorbs *are* useful enfeebles. Their effects are less visible than Paralyze, but not necessarily less important.)

DRK don't really have the mp pool to support tier III nukes, I don't think - anyway, with the WS damage they can put out, a 600 damage MB would be a bit much. Tier IIs can already burst for 300+, and if that's not more than a single swing for you, I want your weapon. But I would support them getting a magic acc bonus trait and/or more magic acc gear available at low to mid levels, to help them be more effective with the spells they do have.


I did just think of an interesting idea for a new DRK spell though - Absorb Magic. Takes one buff from the target and transfers it to you - basically Dispel, only better. (Would probably have to be 38+, some jobs being able to sub this would be kinda sick.) Absorbing defense or evasion buffs isn't much better than dispelling them (except when soloing!), but you can also absorb scorpion Attack Boost or a couple of beastmen's Warcry... basically anything except Blink and Magic Barrier (both of which would stop Absorb Magic from landing in the first place.) Most parties today already have a dispeller, but if there is a new support/refresh job in TAU, it may or may not have dispel too. A DD that can stun and dispel and lower stats could be quite useful.

Actually, the reverse of that (take one debuff from yourself and transfer it to the target) would be cool too. Bat/beetle evasion down? You too! No, really, you can have this Aegis Schism, I insist. :D The revenge aspect of it seems very DRK-like. Some effects might have to be excluded, though (revenging Max HP Down back onto the Tavnazian Ram would be a little overpowered) - even aside from Silence, Stun and Petrify, which you obviously couldn't return.

I think having their own magic makes more sense than imitating BLM magic better.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

DRK don't really have the mp pool to support tier III nukes, I don't think - anyway, with the WS damage they can put out, a 600 damage MB would be a bit much. Tier IIs can already burst for 300+, and if that's not more than a single swing for you, I want your weapon.

Point.

[Tomatoes]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

As for the STR issue...I used to think it was linear, but apparently it isn't. It's supposed to scale faster on two-handed weapons to offset that. However, Apple Pie never really went into much detail on fSTR...I wish he had; he did give a link, but it's in Japanese... http://pamama.hp.infoseek.co.jp/FF1...5-03-10-31.html If anyone could translate that, I'd be eternally grateful, since it's been bothering me for quite a while.

I believe it's because fSTR isn't a standalone variable, but part of the damage equation. Therefore adding strength is somewhat mitigated as far as having a linear effect (although, it is still the best way to boost damage regardless of what the secondary modifiers might say). This might help a little:

The highest damage possible with Woodvile's Axe:

(50 + int (50 / 9) + 8) * 3.0 = 189

Here's how you calculate it.

Damage = (D + fSTR) * PDIF

(snip)

D: Base Damage of your weapon (e.g., Woodvile's Axe = 50)

fSTR: 0 ~ int (D / 9) + 8 depending on the difference between your STR and target's VIT

PDIF: 0.0 ~ 2.4 (3.0 on criticals) depending on [Your attack / target's defence]

(snip)

I'm not entirely sure myself how the whole thing works, but this might be one way to explain the seeming disparity between 1h vs 2h weapons.

Let's step away from the Woodville's example for a sec and look at theoretical LV 60 weapons. I'll call them:

TestAxe60 - D40 Delay 240

TestGax60 - D80 Delay 480

Note that the dmg/delay ratio is equal for both weapons.

Let's assume PDIF is equal for both setups and set it at 1 to simulate "normal" damage, rather than the "max" damage for the Woodville's example. And let's also assume that your STR vs. mob's VIT is also equal, so that the comparison is purely weapon vs. weapon.

So for a "normal" hit we have:

TestAxe60 ~ 52.44 = (40+[(40/9)+8])*1

TestGax60 ~ 96.88 = (80+[(80/9)+8])*1

Note that I haven't rounded off the integer, because I want to get a scaled comparison. Note also that I have the Axe set at half the delay of the Gax. So 2 swings of the Axe should take the same amount of time as 1 swing of the Gax (not taking Dual Wield into consideration). But more importantly is that 2 swings of the Axe does not seem to equal 1 swing of the Gax in damage.

Axe = 2x52.44 = 104.88 vs. 96.88 = Gax

Not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless between weapons of equal damage/delay ratio.

We can try it with the level 43 CC Axe +1 vs. the level 42 Raifu also and get the same result. Both have the same damage/delay ratio. But after running it through the "normal" hit simulation we get:

CC Axe +1 = 84.81 = 45.77*1.85 (1.85 is Raifu's delay divided by CC+1's delay, since it isn't a perfect 2:1 ratio as in the TestAxe example)

Raifu = 78

Please correct me if I'm totally misapplying the equation. As I said before, I'm not totally clear on this myself.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Point.

That's all I saw in that post too, SelfdestButton. Basically, it just makes the position that DRKs aren't meant to be casters that much stronger. In other words, had SE really been serious about this option, many things would need to be addressed before someone can make a serious argument for spell casting as a secondary option.

Karinya, my double attack with scythe on a low IT monster does more damage than a Tier II MB (non-critical). If the DRK closes, MB goes out the door, because you'd need to swap in stuff to make it worthwhile (which arguably stacks a small delay on any other delay you already have, including macro delay and lag from general internet connection) Tier III MB, however, makes more sense, but the MP costs erases that option entirely.

Tomatoes, thanks for showing us those calculations. It's basically what every DD melee knew all along, but just had difficulties putting it on paper so that everyone can see what we are talking about. Maybe Armando's right about not only reducing TP gain on off-hand in Dual-Wield, but also reducing dmg modifiers as well ... we'll see if SE even considers this as a play balance or if they got something else that's concerning them more (I'm guessing BLM is on the chopping block)

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I think most everything has been covered...

I myself have made tons and tons of DRK suggestions.

Last Resort is in serious need of a tweak. It is useless and pointless. It gives less Attack than Berserk, lasts only 30 seconds as opposed to Berserk's 3 minutes, and it causes enmity upon its activation. I mean... wtf is that? It is in no way balanced.

Let's go further...

Take Weapon Bash. It is a slightly slower Stun spell on a 5 minute timer that only procures maybe 10% of the time, even on Too Weaks. I'm being liberal with the proc rate too, btw. It is a bit better for spells, yes, but many other jobs can handle that better. Generally you need to either Stun a spell or it is slow enough for the RDM to just silence the mob again. Hm.... Weapon Bash looks like a worthless piece of shit if you ask me.

Continuing...

Arcane Circle. What. The. Fuck. Is. This. Doing. In. My. Ability. List? It is good for NOTHING. It is not even a reliable save when you get links in Sky. Often we'll get two links and I'll use it, and it will not procure even ONCE on a party member. Let us not forget it's correspondingly useless job trait or it's bothers and sisters on their respectively unfortunate jobs. These circle/killer abilities as a whole are useless. SE might as well same the programming space and just delete them all together if they aren't going to make them useful.

We won't look at Souleater. Souleater isn't so bad... sometimes. It's a bit useless without a PLD (which means sub-par exp compared to a NIN. Sorry, it's the truth) but I don't let that stop me, much to the healers bane. I have heard of making the added damage hate free. ...and I think that makes sense. You are already paying for that damage via the initial hate on activation, lost HP, and MP from the healer spent curing you to keep it at full power.

Hum, and that kind of rounds out my Job Abilities, doesn't it?

Oh wait, my glorious two-hour, Blood Weapon. The "most selfish two-hour in the game" as many say. Well for a self-ish two-hour it's not very good at saving my own ass. It sure as hell won't save anyone elses either. Call me gimp, but I don't have a Kraken Club, I don't have a Ridill, and I don't have any Mecurial Kris. Add on the public stupidity on this ability... A few facts for you all: it only lasts 30 seconds, which is 4 hits from my scythe. Two: it does NOT do additional damage. It heals you, and nothing more. The drain effect is not causing harm to the enemy.

Gosh, that's an awful lot of bitching and crap and I haven't even started on our spells or weapon choices. Nor our gear.

Well how about some proposed fixes? Ok, that's reasonable, let me take a stab at this...

Last Resort
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 15
Recast: 5 minutes
Effect: Attack +60%, DEF -60%
Durration: 1 minute 30 seconds

or

Damage +10%, Damage Taken +10%
Durration: 30 seconds

or

Haste +35%, Damage Taken +35%
Durration: 1 minute

(you could literally do anything with this ability, as long as it were something useful)

------------

Weapon Bash
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 10
Recast: 3 minutes
Effect: Stuns the target
(Just lower the recast and make the Stun proc as often as it does on the Stun spell)

------------

Arcana Killer
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 5
Effect: Damage +10% vs Arcana
(the same for all "killer" effects and the Circle version would stay the same, only this is the effect it'd grant the party)

------------

Magic Burst Bonus
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 40
Effect: +50% damage on Elemental magic bursts

Magic Burst Bonus II
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 65
Effect: +75% damage on Elemental magic bursts

(The second trait over-writes the first one)

------------

Draw
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 50
Recast: 2 minutes
Casting Time: 10 seconds
MP cost: 50
Effect: Absorbs a one buff from a target and gives it to the caster

-----------

Debauch
Job: Dark Knight
Level: 70
Recast: 3 minutes
Casting time: 8 seconds
MP cost: 60
Effect: Gradually drains TP from a target and gives it to the caster
(something like 2% TP every tick or so)
Durration: 1 minute

==========================


No one likes nerfs so I'm sure at least a few of these buffs are alright, provided you actually think about some of them and consider the math first instead of just jumping the gun like most do. Afterall, we don't want nerfs. As justified as they might be.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Tomatoes: All you calculated was fSTR when capped. The real issue is how it grows; if it's linear, then one-handers have an advantage, along the same lines of en-spell damage. If it's not linear, and two-handers gain fSTR faster, then the difference due to speed is evened out. The tables and graphs on that link I posted suggest the latter. Even so, two-handers generally have less delay than the doubled delay of a one-hander with good DMG, so even if there was a minor difference, the one-hander still pays in Delay (Dual Weild threw this concept out of whack, though.)

Last Resort is in serious need of a tweak. It is useless and pointless. It gives less Attack than Berserk, lasts only 30 seconds as opposed to Berserk's 3 minutes, and it causes enmity upon its activation. I mean... wtf is that? It is in no way balanced.

But it stacks with Berserk. I think all it needs is to lose the hate spike.

Take Weapon Bash. It is a slightly slower Stun spell on a 5 minute timer that only procures maybe 10% of the time, even on Too Weaks. I'm being liberal with the proc rate too, btw. It is a bit better for spells, yes, but many other jobs can handle that better. Generally you need to either Stun a spell or it is slow enough for the RDM to just silence the mob again. Hm.... Weapon Bash looks like a worthless piece of shit if you ask me.

I believe JAs are marginally faster than "instant" spells since the spells still have a casting time, as small as it may be (I've had my Flashes interrupted.) I'll give you this one, though. As a PLD, Shield Bash is nothing more than a hate tool, and a valuable one at that. It's not reliable at all for Stunning. DRKs don't want hate, though, and the Stun is equally unreliable, so much of the ability is wasted.

Arcane Circle. What. The. Fuck. Is. This. Doing. In. My. Ability. List? It is good for NOTHING. It is not even a reliable save when you get links in Sky. Often we'll get two links and I'll use it, and it will not procure even ONCE on a party member. Let us not forget it's correspondingly useless job trait or it's bothers and sisters on their respectively unfortunate jobs. These circle/killer abilities as a whole are useless. SE might as well same the programming space and just delete them all together if they aren't going to make them useful.

I don't know about you, but every time I Holy Circle on another party member it procs at least once for them...

Oh wait, my glorious two-hour, Blood Weapon. The "most selfish two-hour in the game" as many say. Well for a self-ish two-hour it's not very good at saving my own ass. It sure as hell won't save anyone elses either. Call me gimp, but I don't have a Kraken Club, I don't have a Ridill, and I don't have any Mecurial Kris. Add on the public stupidity on this ability... A few facts for you all: it only lasts 30 seconds, which is 4 hits from my scythe. Two: it does NOT do additional damage. It heals you, and nothing more. The drain effect is not causing harm to the enemy.

It can be rather nasty when stacked with Souleater, however.

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Last Resort is only good for adding a little bit more damage to a WS, other than that it's pretty much pointless - and you better hope it doesn't rip the hate off the other person just by using it.

If you think Weapon Bash is "instant" then you've never tried it. It can take a second or two to go off, which may not seem like a long time, but it is when the mob is about to kill you with a TP move and stun isn't up. That's assuming you even get lucky enough that it actually does anything.

The two hour is crap for our main weapon of choice. They should remove the time limit, and instead make it stay around for a certain amount of damage, and make that damage increase the higher you level. Of course, that's just a random not thoughtout idea.

Killer Traits are useless, they don't even increase damage at all, you just have to hope they get paralyzed at a crucial time - and as far as I'm concerned the resist traits are only useful for ballista.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I think Karinya was saying anything greater than tier II would be overpowering. 150 damage scythe strikes is a little optimistic in a few circumstances, I think, so I'd have to agree.

[Tomatoes]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Tomatoes, thanks for showing us those calculations. It's basically what every DD melee knew all along, but just had difficulties putting it on paper so that everyone can see what we are talking about. Maybe Armando's right about not only reducing TP gain on off-hand in Dual-Wield, but also reducing dmg modifiers as well ... we'll see if SE even considers this as a play balance or if they got something else that's concerning them more (I'm guessing BLM is on the chopping block)

Hmm... I don't agree with this actually. I'd prefer to see 2h weapon wielding possibly enhanced, rather than seeing DW gimped. And overall, I do not believe the difference is that big a deal. After hundreds of thousands of XP, often paired with 2h weapon users or using them myself, I feel that path is still quite strong. Of course the caveat here is that the 2h weapon user is well equipped. But then, that could be said of any job.

I guess what I'm saying is that a tweak would be nice. An overhaul would be excessive and unnecessary. And top damage on parser isn't the only way to contribute to the PT experience.

Tomatoes: All you calculated was fSTR when capped. The real issue is how it grows; if it's linear, then one-handers have an advantage, along the same lines of en-spell damage. If it's not linear, and two-handers gain fSTR faster, then the difference due to speed is evened out. The tables and graphs on that link I posted suggest the latter.

Hmm, I was trying to remove fSTR as a variable and just set it at 1 (not capped). Was that a mistake? Could you interpret the chart in more detail? I would like to know more about this as well. At any rate, half time is over >.< Please do continue though everybody.

Even so, two-handers generally have less delay than the doubled delay of a one-hander with good DMG, so even if there was a minor difference, the one-hander still pays in Delay (Dual Weild threw this concept out of whack, though.)

Yah, but conversely 1h weapons tend to have more base damage than 1/2 2h, so it's usually even in that aspect. There are weapon-by-weapon exceptions though.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Hm? Most 2h weapons have more damage per delay than 1h, isn't it?