Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

[Karinya]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Considering that TP scales with Delay, it doesn't really matter how fast they swing (unless they're severely under 180 delay.) If you gave Triple Attack to DRKs too, they'd gain TP faster, that's for sure, but they wouldn't have a distinct advantage over THF's Triple Attack or vice-versa.

Aside from the fact that the DRK who triple attacks early in the fight is tanking until the next provoke, yeah. (Actually, they might have a bit of an advantage, THF occasionally hit for 0 on some mobs.)

Yeah, too many people are obsessed with getting TP extremely fast. I also feel DRKs are fine as it is. However, I can't help but feel that one-handers have a distinct advantage. Even with Dual Weild out of the equation, I don't have a really good reason to use a two-hander. I negate so much damage by shielding it's ridiculous, and one-handed damage is more or less equal...so where's the advantage in two-handers? Aside from WS options, one-handers can hold their own against two-handers, which is exactly the problem...shouldn't the two-handers have some saving grace to outdamage one-handers?

Shields are great if you're being attacked. Otherwise they don't do much.

And I think you're contradicting yourself here. One handers can hold their own *aside from WS options*, sure, more or less. But Anything/THF with a one-hander is a complete waste of time (only main THF gets the +dmg on SATA that makes it worthwhile with one-handers), and WAR/SAM is all about the free breaks courtesy of Meditate, which again, you can't do with a one-hander.


Regarding the TP nerf for DW suggestion: DW haste already lowers TP gain per hit, unless you are using the TP floor (which only THF and NIN can do practically). Armando's suggestion for offhand Joyeuse/Ridill/Kraken/Mercurials is interesting, but the increased TP gained by the user is already (at least theoretically) counterbalanced by the increased TP gained by the target, like Barrage (this is why Meditate is so much better than Barrage from the party's point of view). Some people may ignore the extra damage their party is going to take from the TP they are feeding to the monster with weak multihit weapons, but that doesn't mean they're actually benefiting the party by using them. I think it's just another symptom of TP obsession at the expense of actually dealing damage.

Another possibility would be to apply the average of weapon DMG to all weaponskills performed by a dual-wielder, eliminating the ability to ignore the low DMG of an offhanded multihit weapon. But I'm not sure this kind of nerf is really warranted - those kinds of setups are flashy, but have hidden costs that affect you whether you ignore them or not. Most monsters can do a lot more with 100% TP than you can - 500 damage plus pretty long stun, aoe for a total of 1200 (sometimes with extra effects like stun or drain), petrify multiple targets - and that's not even counting NMs.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Breaks are a special exception since they're debuffs. If you wanna look at it that way, nobody but WAR and possibly DRK can do Breaks. It was bad wording on my part, though...what I meant to say is that the only way in which one-handers and two-handers really differ is WS/skillchain options. When you look at it, though, one-handers also get some great WS. Rampage, Vorpal/Swift Blade can put out some nice numbers. SA isn't a complete waste with them, either - SA Mistral Axe can also put out high numbers, SA stacks well with Avalanche Axe, and adds enough damage to Rampage to make up for the missing 6th hit from dual weild. Not sure how the numbers compare to Raging Rush/Spinning Slash/Guillotine would do, and sure, two-handers do get more out of SA, but SA on one-handers can put out good numbers. The critical on SA WS for one-handers does similar, if not better damage than the extra hit that comes from DW WS. Plus, many one-handers have DMG that, when doubled, is more than what their two-handed counterparts have, along with some great bonuses which many two-handers seem to be lacking. That DMG and Accuracy/Attack bonuses also help in minimizing whatever gap in damage there may be.

And sure, a shield is useless if you're not taking hits, but that was besides the point...a melee that doesn't rely on positioning to deal optimal damage (anybody that isn't THF or RNG) can use a one-handed weapon and produce very similar, if not equal numbers to a two-handed weapon, while easily getting an average of 20-40% damage reduction from blocking with the shield. That's a pretty big thing one-handers have going for them. For something like Ballista, two-handers kind of leave something to be desired...less survivability, and if for whatever reason the enemy has shadows up that weren't removed by a -ga spell, the enemy also has better survivability. The two-handers also give anyone ample time between swings to cast spells or do WS.

And monster TP is only really an issue if the mob is below 20% health.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Regarding the TP nerf for DW suggestion: DW haste already lowers TP gain per hit, unless you are using the TP floor (which only THF and NIN can do practically)

No, it does not. Ask any WAR/NIN who you're kidding when it comes to who gets TP fast. I consistently get out TP'd by an average build WAR even if I'm clad in 60+ million gil worth of gear (including gear in inventory to swap out) Granted, I'm on DRK/THF, but when everyone, including the BLM, are waiting for the SC, that is pure frustration that a non-DD melee like yourself will never know. If I'm at 66% TP (11% Gswd x 6 hits) the WAR/NIN is already spamming PT chat with 110~150% or more TP on hand ... with TP nerfing on DW, this takes away the TP speed gain. Of course, those of you who thrive on chain 50 jizz-fests will probably beg to differ ... again, there in lies the problem with game balance, as SE never really intended for people to pull stunts off like that ...

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Actually, Aeni, Dual Weild DOES reduce TP per hit to what it would be if you were swinging a weapon with the newly calculated Delay. Them getting TP that much faster than you can only be explained by there being a big accuracy gap, or them using a Joyeuse/Ridill/Kraken Club in their off-hand. Not to mention WAR has Double Attack working in their favor, along with the ability to increase its activation rate with Merit Points. Whatever it is, it's not a direct result of how Dual Weild works.

[bikkebakke]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

DRG's can supposedly make up the damage with their jumps. DRK's are supposed to be able to make up the damage with their spells. That is the whole basis of a DRK, a melee with acces to black magic.

[Sevv]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Ok on the 2handed vs 1handed weapon issue.....

2handed weapons....

Greataxe: have never had the chance to play around with one irl but they are very top heavy so you wouldnt be able to swing one very quickly

Greatsword: i have played with one irl also very top heavy tho if they wanted to balance the tp gain could add a upwords recovery slash for very little damage but more tp just an idea

Scythe: have played with similar things irl and it does not feel natural to bring it back to what would be across an enemy it

Polearm: have played with spears to halbreds..... Spears have a very balanced weight and i t is very very easy to launch more then one thrust at an enemy very quickly to add a double triple attack in normal combat would be logical.... Halbreds on the otherhand would be very easy to use the more of a blade part then to the point combo of attacks

great katana: i have only played with one of these when my cousin came back... not even close to being good with one but very easy to swing and would also be very easy to get off a multiple attack 1st one for good damage due to the full swing then lower damage for each due to more of a shorter ability to attack

one handed weapons....

hand to hand: god anyone can goes try this stand up away from your computer and throw ur hands about as quick as you can lmao .....

axe: playing with a hatch would be what this is similar to and you can swing one very quickly

dagger: basically a big kitchen knife easy to throw about

and others i think you get my point on irl weapons


well ig im a dragoon and now i dont really gain tp to slowly jump and high jump help alot and i play as thief ninja for fun and they do seem to gain tp alot quicker maybe if S-E wanted to fix not NERF the weapons 2h vs 1h they could simply use what is natural to a person not just say hey you thief ninja and /nin less tp for you! They like to hurt one job instead of raising the rest to the same bar tho it make the game more challenging which is good. well just my ideas flame away if you think im wrong

Double Post Edited:
also should add if your only looking at 73+ and you really want to get off double attacks go after virtue weapons not easy but with the virtue stond double att 75%-90% (been said on boards that is the rate.... mine is from Jailer of love /sigh)

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Or DRKs can get a trait that makes them build TP from spell-casting proportionate to the casting time... possibly a trait that gets stronger with level, maybe obtaining reduced benefits in the event of a resist to not make it too powerful in HNM stuff.

Regarding the argument I just skimmed over, the issue seems to be the strengths of disparate melees and the irregular way they translate into damage based on what you're fighting. DRK has WS damage depending on single hit abilities that don't care much about level, backed up mostly it seems by base STR. That doesn't count for shit the weaker things get because the advantage is overkill; you can plaster a deco with some quirky multi-hit like penta thrust, or have a ninja with relatively (relative to drk) low STR and ATT put up impressive numbers by virtue of extra attacks.
As the mob difficulty increases all melee assets decrease, but not proportionately. Penta thrust starts sucking. MNKs and NINs start hitting for shit. And 300% spiral hell is still doing 1500 damage.

I'm not entirely sure if SE designed the game with this in mind or not. Certainly some aspects of balance are entirely pooched but this duality at first glance doesn't seem like such a bad idea, if not for the fact that there are jobs at top dog efficiency in all scenarios.
In any event, nerfs piss people off something fierce even if its painfully obvious they're necessary. I think it would be better to throw DRK a bone than to boot NIN and /NIN in the balls.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

In any event, nerfs piss people off something fierce even if its painfully obvious they're necessary. I think it would be better to throw DRK a bone than to boot NIN and /NIN in the balls.

I never advocated a change in the way Dual Wield works for main NIN. Only when a player subs NIN. Also, I see no reason as to why people should comlain. DRK/THFs had to play gimp due to SA being gimped (You realize what kind of damage you can add to something like Spin Slash if SATA works on sub the way it does to main ...) If SE nerfed /THF, why not /NIN? It's purely logical and I'm sure it may have been an oversight or something that the devs forgot all about.

Armando, it's not about accuracy since that's not a problem that I am suffering for what I'm equipped (Combined with sushi) and read what I said about average build WAR/NINs who don't own a KClub or any multi-hit weapon for that matter.

You need to be there in order to see what I mean. Here is a scenario with a monster that is still IT in every sense of that word to a 71 player ... by the time I have my 100%, realize that an SATA+Spin, when successful (Requires that the WAR/NIN don't mind me pinning this on them, which, unfortunately, is not easy with JP WAR/NIN that don't understand what is going on as they tend to slide a bit to either side as I'm starting this) can usually put out enough that the MB is overkill.

When you get further into the 70s, the problem is exacerbated as everyone expects you (DRK) to sub THF still as the battles seem to conclude more and more to the point getting 100% TP is near worthless. An impatient BLM could hose the monster down with enough nukes on every battle to make acquiring TP a worthless task and I don't blame BLMs for doing so, as they probably wished they were in mana burn PTs at this point ...

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Aeni, I can't say I know why there's such a big difference in TP, and I don't doubt you in the least. All I'm saying is that it's not because of Dual Weild - I can say with 100% certainty it does lower your TP so that you gain it at the same speed as before.

And yes, I realize the kind of damage that could be done if SATA worked just like THF main. /THF would dethrone /NIN and become the end-all solution to doing damage XD Though, it really was unfair to the THFs that everyone could do exactly the same thing as them, only better; I can see why it was nerfed.

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Dual wield may lower TP, but what does that matter? It's such a miniscule amount it makes little difference. The only job that subs /nin and parties with DRK is generally WAR, since we generally don't party with THF anymore after 66 - although we may after 71. Even still, a WAR/NIN will get more TP than me if both of his hits hit, and that doesn't even count double attack.

Regardless, once you get to about 72 or 73, it's almost impossible to get TP in time for a SC without killing the mob first. You can't SC the mob at the beginning and expect to get enough TP to do it again on the next mob either. Weapons have I'm guessing about 3-4K HP. Any DRK with decent gear will finally start to get consistant 1K+ spinning on them, and if you're lucky and the SC does full damage that is going to be over half the HP right there, not to mention the MB afterwards which will probably kill the mob or come close to it. You kill so fast after 73, it almost makes DRK meaningless because of their slow TP gain.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

It does matter. It lowers TP completely proportional to the reduction in Delay. If you consider it to only reduce TP "a bit," then you must also not think it only increases speed a bit.

[Omni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Dual wield may lower TP, but what does that matter? It's such a miniscule amount it makes little difference. The only job that subs /nin and parties with DRK is generally WAR, since we generally don't party with THF anymore after 66 - although we may after 71. Even still, a WAR/NIN will get more TP than me if both of his hits hit, and that doesn't even count double attack.

Regardless, once you get to about 72 or 73, it's almost impossible to get TP in time for a SC without killing the mob first. You can't SC the mob at the beginning and expect to get enough TP to do it again on the next mob either. Weapons have I'm guessing about 3-4K HP. Any DRK with decent gear will finally start to get consistant 1K+ spinning on them, and if you're lucky and the SC does full damage that is going to be over half the HP right there, not to mention the MB afterwards which will probably kill the mob or come close to it. You kill so fast after 73, it almost makes DRK meaningless because of their slow TP gain.

i wouldnt go so far as to call them meaningless. this is where i think you are having way too much envy over other jobs. no offense but, if you are chaining 5 happily, i dont think anyone should complain about their pt/job being ineffective. being able to chain 6+ is really more of a novelty imo rather than actual necessity.

i've pt with g.axe wars and drks at this lvl and i think its just fine. even if you cant drop a renkei on the mob, its no biggie at this lvl. as you said, these mobs go down really fast so even if you cant renkei, i highly doubt it would affect your ability to chain 5. the 'fast' tp gain job would probably blow their ws to help it along or the mage would drop a few more nukes. if you are running with 4 melee, the other renkei team would probably go or drop solo skills.

[Karinya]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

It doesn't occur to you that if you kill the monster before you get to 100% TP, then TP are not that important to your ability to kill monsters? WS and SC are very important at mid levels, but by the highest levels, they're not that important anymore. You did 2-3x more damage getting TP than you'll do using it, and BLM are almost never resisted whether they MB or not. (Assuming non-HNM, of course.) Especially if you fight VTs instead of going to Lufaise/Uleguerand.

You don't need to skillchain every fight. You just need to do 100% of the monster's HP every fight. SC's are still useful to beat that #5 timer, but they're not that much of your overall party damage, nor are they crucial to success in an exp situation at the highest levels. If you don't believe me, get a parser and look at someone's total WS damage over the whole party vs. their total normal hit damage. 15k vs. 50k is about right IMX.

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

It doesn't occur to you that if you kill the monster before you get to 100% TP, then TP are not that important to your ability to kill monsters? WS and SC are very important at mid levels, but by the highest levels, they're not that important anymore

But that's the problem. No one invites us for the damage in between, people invite for spinning slash, or spiral hell, or some ws. You never hear anyone say "we need DOT, so get that DRK", because a DRK/THF with GS has probably the lowest DOT of any DD in the game. Although with a BRD, it's alot better.

I never got asked to go to a party after 72-73 as DRK/WAR and use scythe. Maybe I was just unlucky? I'm not envious of other jobs, because I can go and level to 75 if I wanted, and I'm not the kind of DRK who constantly bitches about how the job sucks. DRK is probably my favorite job in the game with WAR probably a close second. Everyone says the "golden level" of DRK are 66-73. After that we can't keep up in terms of damage to MNK or WAR, etc, because everyone knows DoT is best in merit parties.

Most of the DRK's problems are mostly community related, I will give it that. Most people have a bad opinion about DRKs, because of the idiots who decide to level it and don't how to play their job at all. I see it too, DRK's wearing AF at 70, and other stupid things. Anyways, a DRK/NIN with the right axes (Woodsville/maneater or maybe even martial/maneater) can be a great DD in merit parties, although it's doesn't get the bonuses war/nin does. DRK/WAR might do better though spamming guillotine, but pretty much everyone seems to want DRK/THF for everything then bitch about their slow TP gain. But that's only exp wise after 73. Endgame is another story.

My point with the tp reduction is that they still gain more tp than I do, and will generally attack faster than me as well, not to mention at 75 when 1h will do damn near if not more than 2h damage. So it doesn't really matter that their tp is reduced a point or two an attack round since they still beat me in every aspect. Not to say I want /nin nerfed, I rather not have anyone nerfed if it meant boosts instead. I guess as a DRK/THF I have developed a feeling of frustration and embarrassment if I can't keep up in TP. May be a stupid thing, but when it's holding the party back; I can't help but feel that way. I don't think DRK sucks, and I don't think it should be an overpowered job, I just see there could be a lot of small changes that could benefit the DRK and anyone it parties with for the better.

Edit: A lot of DRK's seem to want their 2hour made into a 15 min JA, while that certainly could boost DoT every 15 minutes, I'm not sure if SE would ever do such a thing. People say DRK's that offhand kraken are overpowered with the 2hour as is, although I disagree since how often does a DRK have kraken? What are people's comment on this? :3

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I think the problem is the DRKs aren't using their full potential. How many DRKs get to make full use of Souleater? How many DRKs get to sub /WAR? Souleater can do some crazy direct damage that should make up for any damage difference.

EDIT: Turning Blood Weapon into a 15 minute ability would be waaaaay too powerful. What DRK needs is to be able to get away with using Souleater (in other words, not turn the mob).