Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

funny, my gs I get 12 tp per hit, but every war/nin i've partied with got 14 tp if both hit, and more often than not they did more damage total than I did in one swing - of course this may be because DRK has to have a shitload of acc, instead of STR, when they use a GS so they can sc every fight. Not to mention those fights where one handed weapons will hit as hard as 2 handed weapons...

The lack of haste gear for DRK is discouraging as well. Unless you have millions to spend on speed belt. Absorbs get pretty much useless near the end of the DRK ladder, as even with capped skill they get resisted most of the time, and as /thf with GS that is time you could be hitting the mob.

Souleater, while a create thing, has way to many penalties. Why does it pull so much hate before even hitting the mob? Not to mention the joke last resort is.. I'm afraid to use it before SC as it will usually pull hate back towards me.

Of course all this whining about people subbing /nin will probably result in a nerf than a boost. :|

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

The only job that gets a significant reduction in the delay of their weapons from the DW trait is NIN. I think the delay reduction anyone /NIN gets at most is 10% or 15%. That reduction is negligible in adding TP over time when compared to the 4-5% more per hit anyone wielding a 2-handed weapon would get.

Dual Weild won't add TP because it lowers Delay. The only two jobs that can get more TP out of Dual Weild in a regular EXP setting (all multi-hit weapons aside) are NIN and THF, because they can push their delays below 180 to exploit the TP floor.

[Omni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

i think the problem here is, people want to gain tp like a war/nin, thf/nin, <insert your fast tp gain job here> but still play a job that uses a 2h weapon. people dont like to be the one holding up the renkei. no one likes to be lagging behind. but to give a 2h weapon user the same tp gain as a dual weidling job, well, its just not realistic, however realistic videogames go atleast.

also, i'd like to point out that even though /nin may receive only DWII bonus', you cannot rule out the fact that war/nin and thf/nin will proc double/triple attack more than once per mob, which in all actuality they will undoubtable proc several times a fight. this is major in terms of tp gain.

[tdh]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

i think the problem here is, people want to gain tp like a war/nin, thf/nin, <insert your fast tp gain job here> but still play a job that uses a 2h weapon. people dont like to be the one holding up the renkei. no one likes to be lagging behind. but to give a 2h weapon user the same tp gain as a dual weidling job, well, its just not realistic, however realistic videogames go atleast.

also, i'd like to point out that even though /nin may receive only DWII bonus', you cannot rule out the fact that war/nin and thf/nin will proc double/triple attack more than once per mob, which in all actuality they will undoubtable proc several times a fight. this is major in terms of tp gain.

I've tried to point this out in the past as well. That with 2 weapons, that gives WAR the chance to Double Attack twice back to back, and a THF to Triple Attack twice back to back. I've actually seen a THF go into a Triple Attack Seizure! Made me wanna level THF to Lv.60 because of that alone! lol But people seemed to just dismiss this, despite that fact that this helps them build TP faster, or make up for a missed swing.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

The thing is, Dual Weild WAS designed so that TP gain was the same compared to single-weilding and two-handers. If a DRK were to dual weild a pair of axes or swords, they wouldn't get TP any faster than if they were single-weilding it, or using a two-handed weapon. The only two exceptions to these rules are NIN (which noone is going to be able to keep up with, really...not with that kind of speed) and THF, and THF could arguably produce similar TP with Double Attack factored in. Really, it's not the fact that they're dual-weilding that's the problem...it's the fact that DRKs aren't subbing anything that'll give them better TP.

That being said, it's my opinion that if DRKs really want to gain TP faster, then they should obviously sub something that'll give them an artificial TP enhancement. That leaves them with three choices: /WAR (arguably the most efficient,) /SAM, or /DRG. The benefits of /WAR are obvious. /SAM offers 15% more TP per hit at 60, as well as Meditate every 3 minutes, but no offensive boosts. /DRG offers 5% Haste, +10 Accuracy, and Jump every 1.5 minutes. At 70, it also offers High Jump, which could arguably be used in conjunction with Souleater to counteract the hate. Interestingly, I just did the math, and considering the slow speeds of Scythes, even with that 5% Haste factored in, a scythe would still only swing 10 times in 90 seconds; Double Attack has a 10% activation rate, so technically Jump is just as good as Double Attack as far as Scythes go. Flamberge-type Great Swords would swing 11 times, so not too bad either. With High Jump thrown into the mix, the TP gain should be better on /DRG than on /WAR.

Here's another interesting proposition: Haste Belt. They're about 60k on Midgardsormr last I checked, WAR/PLD/DRK only, gives a Haste effect that stacks with the spell, lowers recast timers by 10% (unsure of the exact % it lowers speed by, but I'm assuming it's close to that.) Each belt has 20 charges, and each charge lasts 3 minutes, so that's one belt per hour of nonstop fighting. NIN has to pay for its tools, so if DRKs are really that concerned about their TP gain, then this would also be a push in the right direction.

I've tried to point this out in the past as well. That with 2 weapons, that gives WAR the chance to Double Attack twice back to back, and a THF to Triple Attack twice back to back. I've actually seen a THF go into a Triple Attack Seizure! Made me wanna level THF to Lv.60 because of that alone! lol But people seemed to just dismiss this, despite that fact that this helps them build TP faster, or make up for a missed swing.

That really doesn't matter...the WAR or THF has just as many chances to get double attack/triple attack back to back on two separate swings; it just looks more impressive on /NIN because they all occur consecutively, but it's not really any better.

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

you're right, those dual wielding jobs just get more tp. Either via dual wield itself or the nature of those jobs (or a combination of the 2, such as offhanding a viking axe).

And Omni makes a good point when he says if you're gonna sub thf, you're gonna lose tp gain. However, that argument falls around a powerful SC. What if the drk is soloing or opening ( Guillotine >> Raging Rush = Fragmentation, for those of us that don't use level 3s)? In this situation, shouldn't the drk sub war? why yes, and he does if he'll live (the dark knight's problem), but the fact is, even /war, he won't gain tp as fast as a monk or a ninja. This last one isn't a Dark Knight-only problem, it's why you don't see 2 handers succeeding in keeping up in damage. <---- Opinion.

As i've said before, I don't think Dark Knights should be able to keep up with wars, but I think 2 handed weapons should be a viable choice. Wars jog out their greataxes only with party's permission for a terrible reason: it won't do as good.

Double Post Edited:
And Armando, you left out Monk twice.

Monk can be subbed to up tp (gimpy Focus all right!)

and this is the real one but it's really more of a question: can mnk abuse the tp floor as well? I'd be inclined to think they can, but not sure and HtH delay is so hard to find. ><

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Lol...they could sub MNK, but Focus is +20 Accuracy for two minutes. At 60 DRG sub gives +10 Accuracy full time, along with that 5% Haste (Wyvern Earring) and Jump to offset the lack of Double Attack (Jump also has an edge because its timers are running even during downtime, so you should be able to Jump more than you get Double Attacks.) But, you're right, I didn't ommit it because I considered it inferior (TP-wise) to /DRG, but because I forgot.

As for the TP floor...um...technically they can, I believe. With their last Martial Arts level their combined Delay is 300, which means each fist is 150 Delay. Of course, they'd have to stick to weapons with +0 Delay to exploit that.

EDIT: While we're on the subject, we all forgot about another sub: /RNG. If I remember correctly, they get Accuracy Bonus II at 30, which means a 60 DRK/RNG gets a permanent Accuracy +22. It's like having permanent Focus, just slightly better ^^

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

If I don't miss and the war never double attacks I can usually meet or surpass them in tp, but how often does that happen? Of course that's assuming the war isn't offhanding a joyeuse or other multihit weapons.

It's not like many DRK's can sub anything besides THF after 60-66, because who's going to invite them? People invite for 800-1k+ spinning slash, and that's not possible without /thf, or if you have 300% tp.

DRK is the only DD job that doesn't get a way to gain extra tp somehow. DRG gets jumps, SAM gets meditate, RNG gets barrage, WAR gets double attack, THF gets triple attack, etc. Just seems backwards how the fastest hitting DD gets triple attack, when the slowest hitting DD gets nothing. Maybe SE assumed we'd sub war to 75?

If they are giving new job abilities to jobs in the next update, I'm anxious to see what they do to DRK. I hope it's not another resist paralyze ability. >_>

[Omni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

lets not forget all the other things drk can do. yea drk might lack in tp gain, but they also are the only job that can get an +10str and +10dex boost. as well as stunning the target.

i really think people that play a job need to be content with it. if you want to play a fast attacking, fast tp gaining job. you know where to find it. if you want to play a job that drops one of the meanest if not THE meanest light ending ws, play drk. if you are looking for an all in one wonder job that does everything the best, well... keep dreaming.

as far as the fastest hitting dd getting triple attack i think its fair considering thf normal hits are pretty meager. thf is built for the renkei. you cant rely on thf dot for dmg. you rely on thf giant renkei for dmg. theres the trade off.

at any rate, how much slower is drk (since this is the job we are talknig about) compared to other jobs in tp gain? from my experience, i set pt with a drk 60-75. as a tank im quite aware of how the flow of the battle is going. is the drk taking so much time gaining tp that a renkei would be overkill on the mob? no. is the drk taking so much time gaining tp that he wont be able to renkei on the mob? no. so what exactly is the problem? just b/c a mnk or war beats you to 100% tp means that you are inadequate as a renkei partner or that the drk job is lacking? hardly.

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

While I do still believe that there are issues with 2 handed weapons -- not just dark knights, I'm surprised at how little complaints I hear about Thf Underpowered-ness. They get to tap HNM for TH and um... they're cool on birds. It must be that all the good thieves of these boards don't like to give out their trade secrets so people like me will never know how secretely incredible they are at everything.

[Karinya]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I've tried to point this out in the past as well. That with 2 weapons, that gives WAR the chance to Double Attack twice back to back, and a THF to Triple Attack twice back to back. I've actually seen a THF go into a Triple Attack Seizure! Made me wanna level THF to Lv.60 because of that alone! lol But people seemed to just dismiss this, despite that fact that this helps them build TP faster, or make up for a missed swing.

Yes, they can double attack twice... and if they do, it has the same total effect as the great axe double attacking once.

Honestly, have you never seen double attacks with a 2 handed weapon? Both the damage and the TP gain are incredible.

THF can gain TP very fast, but their weapon damage and STR are very low outside SATA, so they can't normally compete with other DD jobs in normal hit damage. I don't know why they keep getting brought into this discussion.

DRK/THF has bad normal hit damage and poor TP gain compared to other subjob choices. If you sub THF you are sacrificing those things to contribute to hate control (and not take hate from your own WS). I don't see the point of then whining for them back. You have a choice between doing more total damage, and doing less damage but getting less hate and adding more hate to the tank.


The other thing to consider in TP gain is that after the first SC of the party, the closer *starts out* behind every time. The opener uses her WS, gets her TP return, then keeps attacking for the next 3 sec. Then the closer uses his WS and gets his TP return and *if* the monster doesn't die, can swing again afterward. This is really obvious when you have two of the same job with very similar gear in a party, such as monks in KRT. Whichever one went first last time will almost always get back to 100% first because they already had 15-20% by the time the closer used his WS. Since 2-handers (and especially DRK/THF) usually close SC, this could also contribute to people's perception that their TP gain is slower.


I think the issue of stat weapons is a real problem, though. Two Viking Axes have as much +acc as Ragnarok. That's just *wrong*. One-handed weapons need to have stats in line with the fact that they only take up one slot while 2H weapons take two. Things like Juggernaut, Viking Axe and Wrath Tabar shouldn't have been made with such high stat bonuses - unless 2H weapons are going to be made with double the bonuses. Imagine a great axe with the stat bonuses of, say, Juggernaut and Viking combined (let alone Woodville/Juggernaut) and you will quickly see how ridiculous 1H stat weapons are right now. Heck, there isn't even a 2h weapon (outside Dynamis and maybe sea) with the stats of Juggernaut by itself, I don't think. I don't think SE really thought about the issue of DW weapon combinations when putting stats on weapons (except maybe katanas), and it's really coming back to bite them in the ass now.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

RK is the only DD job that doesn't get a way to gain extra tp somehow. DRG gets jumps, SAM gets meditate, RNG gets barrage, WAR gets double attack, THF gets triple attack, etc. Just seems backwards how the fastest hitting DD gets triple attack, when the slowest hitting DD gets nothing. Maybe SE assumed we'd sub war to 75?

Considering that TP scales with Delay, it doesn't really matter how fast they swing (unless they're severely under 180 delay.) If you gave Triple Attack to DRKs too, they'd gain TP faster, that's for sure, but they wouldn't have a distinct advantage over THF's Triple Attack or vice-versa.

I think the issue of stat weapons is a real problem, though. Two Viking Axes have as much +acc as Ragnarok. That's just *wrong*. One-handed weapons need to have stats in line with the fact that they only take up one slot while 2H weapons take two. Things like Juggernaut, Viking Axe and Wrath Tabar shouldn't have been made with such high stat bonuses - unless 2H weapons are going to be made with double the bonuses. Imagine a great axe with the stat bonuses of, say, Juggernaut and Viking combined (let alone Woodville/Juggernaut) and you will quickly see how ridiculous 1H stat weapons are right now. Heck, there isn't even a 2h weapon (outside Dynamis and maybe sea) with the stats of Juggernaut by itself, I don't think. I don't think SE really thought about the issue of DW weapon combinations when putting stats on weapons (except maybe katanas), and it's really coming back to bite them in the ass now.

I agree...like I said in an earlier post, if you started making two-handers with high DMG (compared to two one-handers) and, say, Haste +10% or multi-hits, you wouldn't see so many people favoring one-handers. Another thing we need is shields with better offensive bonuses. Right now the mentality is "dual weild or two-hander, we have no use for single-weilding" which is dead wrong, considering the incredible power shields have to mitigate damage. There are few shields with really good DD stats...Viking Axe and Tatami Shield are the only things I can think of off of the top of my head. The one trade off to one-handers was that their delay was higher than that of two-handers, but Dual Weild already does away with this, while also stacking bonuses.

While I do still believe that there are issues with 2 handed weapons -- not just dark knights, I'm surprised at how little complaints I hear about Thf Underpowered-ness. They get to tap HNM for TH and um... they're cool on birds. It must be that all the good thieves of these boards don't like to give out their trade secrets so people like me will never know how secretely incredible they are at everything.

Haven't mentioned it because I really don't feel THFs are underpowered. At least, not in EXP. Merit Point parties and HNMs are a completely different ball game, one which I still haven't played.

lets not forget all the other things drk can do. yea drk might lack in tp gain, but they also are the only job that can get an +10str and +10dex boost. as well as stunning the target.

i really think people that play a job need to be content with it. if you want to play a fast attacking, fast tp gaining job. you know where to find it. if you want to play a job that drops one of the meanest if not THE meanest light ending ws, play drk. if you are looking for an all in one wonder job that does everything the best, well... keep dreaming.

as far as the fastest hitting dd getting triple attack i think its fair considering thf normal hits are pretty meager. thf is built for the renkei. you cant rely on thf dot for dmg. you rely on thf giant renkei for dmg. theres the trade off.

at any rate, how much slower is drk (since this is the job we are talknig about) compared to other jobs in tp gain? from my experience, i set pt with a drk 60-75. as a tank im quite aware of how the flow of the battle is going. is the drk taking so much time gaining tp that a renkei would be overkill on the mob? no. is the drk taking so much time gaining tp that he wont be able to renkei on the mob? no. so what exactly is the problem? just b/c a mnk or war beats you to 100% tp means that you are inadequate as a renkei partner or that the drk job is lacking? hardly.

Yeah, too many people are obsessed with getting TP extremely fast. I also feel DRKs are fine as it is. However, I can't help but feel that one-handers have a distinct advantage. Even with Dual Weild out of the equation, I don't have a really good reason to use a two-hander. I negate so much damage by shielding it's ridiculous, and one-handed damage is more or less equal...so where's the advantage in two-handers? Aside from WS options, one-handers can hold their own against two-handers, which is exactly the problem...shouldn't the two-handers have some saving grace to outdamage one-handers?

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

With most endgame mobs, if I have 12 tp at the start of the fight I won't get 100% until about 50-60% depending on how good (or bad) the party is. If it's a good party, it's hard to get tp fast enough to sc without overkilling the mob, especially if you have a BLM. When partying with WAR I generally don't have too much trouble keeping up with tp. RNG if they barrage, I have no chance. Sam is out of the question, and DRG is pretty hard to keep up with too if they use their jumps regularly. It's not really so much that we want to be uber fast TP gainers, we just want to get rid of the stigma that we are crappy DD because we can't gain TP. I'm not requesting triple attack added to DRK, as if DRK did have that and all 3 hits, you'd probably have a DRK tanking.

There are alot of things about DRK that arguably should be fixed. Last Resort and Souleater pull way too much hate on activation imo. Absorbs take too long to cast, and aren't very useful endgame. And of course the problem with 2h weapons vs 1h. I'm sure many DRKs feel that it's our turn to get some fixing, after DRG got theres. Hopefully next couple of months ^-^

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I want to make some clarifications on posts made in this thread. Too many errors here and there ...

First of all, on Great Katanas. It has a slightly lower delay than a Scythe, but definitely not lower than a Great Sword and some Great Axes. SAM mains have enough Store TP to nullify this.

DRK/THF would not get 30+ TP on a double attack (You can get double attack from a sushi without WAR main or sub ... I've tested this already with DRK/THF) unless they are using a scythe. Even so, the TP gain is roughly 12.5% per swing, not 15%. Very large difference. It's a lot lower for DRK/THF, that is why the TP gain is painfully slow on that job combo. It's a direct result of the subjob and weapon combination (Great Sword produces very low TP per swing for a 2hd Weapon, around 11% or so, with a couple HQ versions putting out 10.5% IIRC) Even if that player puts out a nice SATA Spin, it's not a good compensation in comparison to a DRK/WAR (I've parsed this before and clearly, the DRK/WAR destroys DRK/THF unless the DRK/THF puts out 1,500~2,000 Spins/GStrikes per fight - which won't happen in TP burn PTs with partial merits @ 75)

We know SAMs gain TP very quickly, but a consistently double attacking DRG/WAR is a very good TP gainer as well. The lance delay is insane and one double attack will give a DRG/WAR almost 40% TP in an instant (Attila Earring and any other additional TP Store will allow this to happen)

So far, it seems that we are dealing with TP gain issue, not really the merits of damage potential on dual wielding.

My proposition, then, would be to nerf TP gain on the offhand on a subbed NIN. Probably reduce it by 50%. In other words, with identical weapons, TP gain for a main job dual wielding will be X + 0.5*X or 1.5*X TP. For example, instead of a WAR/NIN gaining 8%+8% or 16% TP per non-DA'd strike, it would gain only 12% or equivalent to a scythe wielding DRK/THF (Slightly less, actually). DA'd on offhand produces the non-nerfed TP gain on just a normal swing (In this example, 8%+4%+4% or 16%) while DA on main will be the only meaningful bonus a WAR/NIN will gain (8%+8%+4% or 20%). Main NIN will not suffer this penalty, since I believe that class is balanced offensively already (excluding damage from non-wielded sources)

This then hurts players trying to offhand weapons like Ridill and Kraken Club, seeing that the TP gain potential is reduced to the point where one questions the value of doing this in the first place. THF/NIN may cry about this, but they shouldn't be the next posterchild for "pentaspamming" either and this may reduce the number of KClub wielding THFs out there.

As for 2hd Weapons, I believe they should not be changed. Not in TP gain, delay or damage potential. It is okay the way it is. However, I strongly feel that nerfing the dual wielding trait on subjobs is the way to go and no one should argue with this (They already nerfed SA on sub THF, among other examples)

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

We know SAMs gain TP very quickly, but a consistently double attacking DRG/WAR is a very good TP gainer as well. The lance delay is insane and one double attack will give a DRG/WAR almost 40% TP in an instant (Attila Earring and any other additional TP Store will allow this to happen)

I don't think that's possible...Lance delay is lower than Scythes. Most have 492, which is 12.15 TP per hit. Store TP works based on percentages, so you'd need need Store TP +65 to raise Lance TP gain to 20 per hit.

My proposition, then, would be to nerf TP gain on the offhand on a subbed NIN. Probably reduce it by 50%. In other words, with identical weapons, TP gain for a main job dual wielding will be X + 0.5*X or 1.5*X TP. For example, instead of a WAR/NIN gaining 8%+8% or 16% TP per non-DA'd strike, it would gain only 12% or equivalent to a scythe wielding DRK/THF (Slightly less, actually). DA'd on offhand produces the non-nerfed TP gain on just a normal swing (In this example, 8%+4%+4% or 16%) while DA on main will be the only meaningful bonus a WAR/NIN will gain (8%+8%+4% or 20%). Main NIN will not suffer this penalty, since I believe that class is balanced offensively already (excluding damage from non-wielded sources)

That's so ingenious I'm not sure why anyone hasn't thought of it yet. I have a better solution, though; Dual Weild isn't a problem in itself, it's the multi-hit weapons. You could apply the same TP nerf S-E implemented on WS to the off-hand - additional hit procs on your offhand weapon will only give 1 TP. This keeps people from using off-hand weapons as an artificial (but clearly superior to any other option) TP boost that allows them to spam WS at an increased rate without compromising WS selection or damage (since WS selection is determined by your main-hand weapon, and all but one hit use the main hand weapon's DMG rating.) If they want better TP, they'd have to mainhand the multi-hit weapon and be limited to the WS of that weapon type - in which case, they may as well single-weild it, since dual weild technically slows down TP gain if you're using multi-hit weapons (because the multi-hit weapon attacks just over half as often compared to single-weilding.)

It's all relative, though. You could nerf Dual Weild, or you could increase two-handed weapons, either solution will close the gap between one-handers and two-handers. I feel nerfing Dual Weild would be more fitting, though. Honestly, the whole trade-off to multi-hit weapons is that their lower DMG rating makes for weaker WS, but Dual Weild completely eliminates that, even when using two of the same weapon type (THF/NINs with a strong mainhand knife and a Mercurial Kris in the offhand, for example.)