Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

[Hustler_One]

I think everyone wielding a twohanded weapon is aware of the problems with it. We have higher delay of course, but the fact is, Dual wielding jobs can do just as much or MORE damage then jobs using twohanded weapons. SAMs/DRGs/DRKs. This is more prevelant endgame but you see it a bit earlier aswell.

I'd like to get some suggestions from other people about how this might be worked out, to balance these two combat styles without 'nerfing'. Cause nothing is gained by just gimping dual wielding.





Kashi, from Alla had these suggestions-

An ability equivalent to Dual Wield, but affects 2-handed weapons could be given to dark knights, and perhaps dragoons. Samurai already have Zanshin to help them attack more (in the event of a miss.)

Dark Knights need this slightly more than dragoons, as dragoons get jumps that act as extra attacks. Dark knights get absolutely no attack speed increase of any sort, and are unique among the physical damage dealers in this respect.


Alternatively, a boost across the board for all jobs using 2-handed weapons could simply be applying a 1.2-1.5x multiplier to strength when calculating the damage on two-handed weapons. This would represent the use of both arms and give a general damage boost to using such weapons.


Those have both been suggested before (by myself, as well as others.) Now if only we could get S-E to actually do something about it.


I think that if we just try to keep sending them information about it. I'm going to get some parser data so that they can SEE exactly the differences. But well I know it won't be any time soon. But hey, you never know. If anyone ALREADY has some parser data showing WAR and NIN DoT and Total Damage, along with DRG/SAM/DRK Dot and Total Damage. That'd be great.

I'd like to give SE as much Feedback, and maybe if you want, also do the same. Maybe we can get this ball rolling again?

[neighbortaru]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

why is this a problem? why can't dual-wield do just as much or more damage?

we don't need complete and utter damage dominance of one job over the other. look what happened to RNG as a result.

[Hustler_One]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Because with dual wielding comes faster tp rate, and usually higher damage. Which is what some jobs are supposed to be doing. Shouldn't they be equal at least damage wise and not fully out classed?

In previous FF games, their were abilities. Like "Two-Hand Wield" Or items, like Gauntlets that had the same effect. So why not include an ability like this?

And I don't mean just to effect these jobs in particular. I mean, it's possible for game balance, but two handed weapons themselves just don't match up against two one handed weapons.

People have suggested 1.2-15 damage increase when wielding something two-handed. Or % damage increases based kinda like Traits move up in tiers.

[Omni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

having a 1.2-1.5 dmg increase would be redundant. they already take this into account when determining the base dmg on each weapon. the fact that it takes 2 hands to wield warrants a higher base dmg. giving it ANOTHER increase would be no where near game balance but more of just a pipe dream of 2h weapon users envying the fast tp gain of their renkei partners. that is the whole give and take of using a 2h weapon. more risk more reward.

if you gave a job like drk this trait, every drk would then switch their sub back to war and with all the goodies war has to offer + that added dmg bonus for using a 2h weapon, drk would be an uncontrollable beast. if you really want to tackle what the whole problem with 2h weapon users really is, you really should think about the reliance on the /thf. the fact that many drks need to sub thf to drop big numbers completely limits its capacity to produce dmg and gain tp. all you have to look forward to is the renkei. you lose a ton of str/atk in addition to double attack. if you just double attacked ONCE during a fight, thats almost an instant 30+ tp right there. double attack + next regular attack soon after. but with /thf, you kill your tp gaining ability for the sake of 1 giant renkei. that's where the problem lies imo. not in your dmg production but in the reliance on the thf sub.

[Hustler_One]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

You do make a valid point. And even with a damage increase, we would have to rely on /thf to not get killed.

Although, I usually use /war most of the time. But that's because my static PLD is capable of securing my hate. We work well together, but we've leveled from 10-75 together.

What about a similar ability to Dual-Wielding? An ability that lowers Delay on Two-handed weapons? Or maybe something similar to Double Attack or Zanshin?

Maybe something that triggers whenever we make a critical hit, disregarding SA of course. Then make a second attack? I wasn't looking at that particular angle. So I'll have to think about that one. lol

Thanks for your input though. If you have some suggestions, please elaborate.

[Karinya]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

This just isn't true. Two handed weapons do more damage per swing and get more TP per swing. Dual wield haste reduces delay, but also reduces TP gained per hit (except THF/NIN, which can use the TP minimum of 5 - but THF has no strength and usually low attack on top of low damage weapons, so their damage wouldn't come close to keeping up with regular DDs without SA+TA.) - so it does a little extra damage, but doesn't actually speed up TP gain.

Two-handed, hand-to-hand, and dual wield are already balanced. If there is a balance problem with WAR/NIN, it's not that they do more damage, but that they don't *lose* damage to fairly compensate for their gain in survivability from Utsusemi. WAR/NIN shouldn't even equal the damage output of WAR/THF or WAR/SAM, because those setups are more vulnerable and therefore less suited to pulling/offtanking some mobs.

In fact, I don't know if it *does* equal the damage output of those setups at high levels - it certainly doesn't in the 30s, SA Sturmwind > all. Furthermore WAR/THF can help control hate and WAR/SAM helps *all* DDs do more damage with Shield Break.

This thread could really benefit from less speculation and more hard data as to what actually does more damage, at what levels, to what mobs. Any individual comparison is between only a few players, but when you add up dozens or hundreds of parties, you could statistically analyze the data and determine whether or not WAR/NIN were really doing more damage on average than, say, DRK/WAR. (Although indirect effects *from that job* like Warcry and Shield Break will still muddy the results, you can statistically control for factors like the presence of bards.)


P.S. If you want Double Attack - not an imitation but the real thing - you know where to find it. Omni-Ragnarok is right about /THF limiting your damage in exchange for giving you better hate control. In some ways I think the best solution would be more availability of -enmity gear for physical DDs; then you could see more DRK/WAR keeping berserk and double attack at high levels. Mages get tons of -enmity free on their AF and can get a ton more with gear; physical DD have practically none and it constantly puts them in danger of screwing up hate control.

[Omni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

You do make a valid point. And even with a damage increase, we would have to rely on /thf to not get killed.

Although, I usually use /war most of the time. But that's because my static PLD is capable of securing my hate. We work well together, but we've leveled from 10-75 together.

What about a similar ability to Dual-Wielding? An ability that lowers Delay on Two-handed weapons? Or maybe something similar to Double Attack or Zanshin?

Maybe something that triggers whenever we make a critical hit, disregarding SA of course. Then make a second attack? I wasn't looking at that particular angle. So I'll have to think about that one. lol

Thanks for your input though. If you have some suggestions, please elaborate.

i think you need to look at the whole picture. this new ability you are looking for would not just be to balance drk in the way you play it but, it will be available to all drks that might play the job differently. IE: drk/thf with native double attack? how many spinslashes do you want to put out a fight? you need to look at the whole picture. giving something like this to drk and players will abuse it.

karinya: the -enmity for dd might be a good idea for melee to have so they can be all that they can be, but this then poses another question. tanking.

if all melee had access to decent amounts of -enmity, then what would be the point of hate control? tanking would then be a walk in the park in terms of hate. all the melee can whack away to their hearts content. drop big numbers, SA randomly and all the tank needs to do is provoke. boy would this make plds mad. nin would truely be the undisputed tanking king.

[Hustler_One]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

My point is that WAR/NIN is statistically better over all. The next PT I am in probably tonight depending on invites I will get a paser done. LOL But seriously, a War/Nin in a DD setup can do a lot more damage. Also a NIN in a DD setup gearwise will be very close to that. That's why I am saying what I am saying. Yes 2handed weapons have higher damage and make more TP per swing. But add in the fact that dual-wielding gets enhanced to lower that delay, you are hitting more, thus making more damage, which in turn means more TP. Which makes for spamming WS.

And I'm not talking specifically about DRK. It's just that, it is my job. So I am more aware of how it plays out. Then say DRG or SAM. I'd rather not go into spamming Spinning Slashes or anything like that. But a slight increase in attack speed would not hurt gameplay balance if we got the TP for a bit faster to get to that WS. SAM doesn't have this problem of course. DRG has their jumps to help with TP gain, but I am unclear on how much that helps. DRK rely only on hitting the enemy, and everyones regular melee attacks are limited to how much they will do by the time you get to 75. This itself stumps the damage a 2 handed weapon can do. Yes 2handed weapon users do say 160 damage in one swing. But a Ninja or War/nin can do 80 or so damage each swing, and swing again before we swing again also. Because of dual wield and dual wield enhancements. But like I said these are just random numbers. I would very much like to get some hard data so we can be certain.

I'm just trying to get suggestions or opinions on what exactly could be done or changed, once a clear difference is shown. To level the playing field.

[Karinya]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Omni: I don't think that would really be the case if melees got, say, -5 enmity (not really that much). They'd be less likely to pull hate off before SC, but after, NIN would still have trouble on some mobs (especially without a THF or /THF - PLD can do this if they work for it). Furthermore, *mages* can pull hate off a NIN - it's pretty rare for a mage to pull hate off a high level PLD unless somebody did something pretty darn stupid.


To return to the point of 1H vs. 2H - I have never seen a dragoon outdamaged by anyone while his wyvern was alive. A weapon that does good damage, acc and atk traits, plus the wyvern (which you can keep out a lot more now) equals a damn effective DD. SAM - well, obviously they don't lag in TP gain; their damage with regular hits is not as high as some DDs, but that's to make up for their frequent, and strong, WS. (Also I think GK delay is a bit shorter than greatsword, greataxe and scythe, and of course they have Zanshin too.)

As for DRK, I think people should remember that it is not a pure melee DD; DRK has spells that weaken mobs and make the fight easier for the whole party. If they did the same damage as a monk (for example), who would invite a monk, when you can get the same damage, stun, absorbs and better pulling (if you don't have someone better already)? Their TP gain is slowed a bit by casting, and even if they don't cast their damage may be a percent or two lower with comparable equip - and that's fine, because they're still useful. In some parties a monk is a bit better, and in some a DRK is a bit better. Same goes for SAM, DRG, RNG, WAR...

Furthermore, any DD that subs THF is sacrificing some damage potential in order to contribute to hate control - if this causes you to do a little less damage than someone with WAR sub, well, what did you expect? Someone that isn't using their most damaging subjob is in poor position to complain about their damage being low. If you don't like the DRK's current role as mostly damage but with some support roles (stuns, absorbs, subbing THF) - perhaps you would be happier changing to a pure damage-oriented job like MNK or RNG? DRK hit things, but that isn't *all* they do. Yes, DRK *is* the only 2H weapon user that doesn't have an acc up trait or ability (well, Zanshin isn't technically acc up, but it works like one) - but they're also the only one that can stun without spending TP. Tradeoffs.

WAR/NIN is popular in pickups because they don't die much even if the group sucks, and they're a good first voker to set up SATA. They don't do as much damage as other WAR setups or other DD jobs, just like RNG/NIN and THF/NIN don't do as much damage as RNG/WAR and THF/WAR; but they're common anyway because people don't want to die (and at high levels, because some areas favor Light SC over Darkness).

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

hmmm wow. So many thoughts swarming on this topic, I wonder if I can pin them all in one post.... doubtful.

First off, we need Armando. I forget where he said it and I forget what he said, but he mentioned somewhere how attack affects quick swinging weapons just as much as it does 2 handed weapons. Whether or not that's true, Strength seems to benefit quick attackers more. the STR-VIT thing is linear, so if it ends up @18 extra damage a swing due to STR alone, the more times you swing, the more times you get that 18 dmg.
As for warriors... I'll get back to warriors at the end.

Name me any DD job in the game, and I'll give you a gimmick they use for tp... Except for Dark Knight and Beastmaster. Beastmaster is an interesting creature that we're not gonna look at today. Dark Knight, on the other hand, just has a negative to tp gain: casting spells.

I'll tell you that I was dissapointed that dark knights couldn't equip crow gear -- not sure why I'd expect them to since it's all clothy, but it would've been nice. As Omni pointed out, I think it'd be overkill. What I'd like to see is some pieces of gear that are geared towards dark knight casting -- Int or Dark Magic skill + as well as some amount of enmity - and dare I say it? Fast Cast? So while they'd be useless pieces for normal melee, a smart drk would macro them on for spells. We all know that if a Drk takes the time to cast 2 ABS spells, they have hate. Toss in a Stun and they're toast.

I've also thought about an ability before where a drk would gain some trivial amount of tp -- like 5 or so, from casting spells. This way the 5 seconds that you're not swinging from casting an ABS spell isn't completely wasted. It couldn't be used to speed up tp, just offsets the penalties they're taking to themselves. But I don't think of new ideas for a reason.

Onto Warriors: go look into Relic Greataxe. Most warriors feel that they'd rather dual wield than use their freakin' Relic weapon! No one uses greataxe for exp. Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with that? As for war/thf and war/sam. I'm not gonna say that they're less useful than /nin, but /nin is the only thing that most warriors care about. Granted, I hate most warriors as they take one dimension of a great job and run it into the ground, but its damage is consistently rediculous.

Onto quick-hitters: sky parties' elite members are war/nin, nins, and monks. See something in common? A ninja my sister hangs out with a lot outparses everyone else too. Because he has a great DD set up, and with Unji/Unsho, he abuses the tp floor even worse than thieves.

I guess my point is that it's simply true. If drks aren't gonna do the best DD around, then they should at least be able to reliably use their magic. Meanwhile, Drgs, Sams, and Greataxe Wars always take the backseat to quick-hitters.

[Omni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

karinya: giving someone -5 enmity, would that be really worth it at all? i mean, it seems too little too late sort of thing imo. if you want to give them something useful, then give it to them in full, or atleast in an amount that it can be put to good use. having -5 enmity on all the time would probably not be the best use of whichever slot that piece is in. and having -5 enmity on fuidama is the last thing you want to do since your enmity gets transfered to whoever you are trying to fuidama onto, iirc. so i suppose its a difference in opinion.

lnmop: i do agree with you on giving drk something that can add to their magic skill. like the ever so rare never seen black set? those have +absorb attributes. i think something on those terms would be interesting. however, i still think that if you want to give up the all purpose warrior sub for the 1 time big renkei sub of theif, losing DoT and TP gain is the price you need to pay. if you take a look at the 1 job that can sub thf and still pump out renkeis, you can see what kind of havoc they can do: sam/thf. sams arent even the hardest hitting melee out there. give this attribute to a g.axe war, drk, and drg and you'll have quick renkei + dot monsters.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Wow, I can't believe someone's actually asking for me XD;; I'm flattered Technically...DRK does have a TP gimmick. Souleater increases Accuracy by 20, and it lasts 1 minute. Granted, it does have penalties...

I do have to agree that DRKs should get more emphasis on their magical abilities, though. Giving them a trait that gives TP proportional to the casting time of the spell would be fitting and useful, without being overpowered. While it simply offsets the TP loss from casting, it'd be more reliable TP - it's easier to stick a spell than to hope your swing lands. Resists could cut back on the TP return proportionately to the reduction in damage/duration, to encourage efficient casting. And I do think they should also capitalize on their Absorb spells, too...not even PLD gets its own line of spells like that, and they're dead useful.

As for the STR issue...I used to think it was linear, but apparently it isn't. It's supposed to scale faster on two-handed weapons to offset that. However, Apple Pie never really went into much detail on fSTR...I wish he had; he did give a link, but it's in Japanese... http://pamama.hp.infoseek.co.jp/FF11...-03-10-31.html If anyone could translate that, I'd be eternally grateful, since it's been bothering me for quite a while.

Attack does affect weapons of all DMG equally. Assume the ratio of your Attack and the mob's Defense is 1.5. Let's say you have a one-handed weapon with 30 DMG and a two-handed weapon with 60 DMG. 30 x 1.5 = 45; 60 x 1.5 = 90. Thus, two swings from the one-hander would add up to one swing from the two-hander. Of course, there's a random variance within a certain range, but if Attack/Defense is the same, then so is the range.

Dual weilding isn't really damaging in itself...the thing about Dual Weilding is that it allows certain things that normally aren't possible. For example, WAR/NINs will speed up their TP gain by using Joyeuse in their offhand, allowing them to spam Rampage more often. And Ridill is pretty broken just from looking at its stats...Then there's NINs, who at 75 will have a total of 40% Dual Weild delay reduction (35% from DWIV and 5% from Suppanomimi.) That alone means a TP gain that's so quick it's ridiculous. With 227 delay katanas, 40% Dual Weild will bump them down to 136 or so delay each, 272 combined. That's 10 TP every 4.5 seconds, so they'd reach 100 TP in about 45 seconds if you assume 100% accuracy (which won't happen, but I've heard of high level parsing at 90%, and when you throw in Double Attacks into account...) Of course, most NIN tanks will have Haste cast on them, and they'd probably be wearing Byakko's Haidate for that +15 DEX and 5% Haste, further speeding up their TP gain. I'm not sure how viable it would be, but NIN has a C+ with dagger; a NIN with a Mercurial Kris in the offhand would be gaining TP ridiculously fast if they could get good accuracy with that hand.

You also have to take into account some one-handed weapons get some very sick bonuses (+30 Attack from Juggernaut, multi-hits on Joyeuse, +10 Accuracy on Viking's Axe, 56 DMG in a full party on Company Sword...) and when you can use two of them, well, it stacks up quite quickly.

In the end, I think the two issues with dual-weilding are TP gain (doesn't apply to DRK as far as I know, unless they own a Ridill) and the bonuses on one-handers. If you two-handers had bonuses like +10 Accuracy or +10% Haste or something along those lines, I'm sure most people would use them. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for two-handers myself...too many people jump on the WAR/NIN bandwagon without knowing how Dual Weild works, and use it as a quick fix to every situation. I also have no high level experience (heh...just hit 50 last week X3) so I'm talking purely out of theory here. The funny thing is, the bonuses on one-handed weapons are one of the reasons people dual weild so much, yet you never see people single-weilding them. It'd be interesting to see a WAR/anything that isn't NIN single-weilding Joyeuse + DD shield (Tatami, Viking's, whatever) and spamming Vorpal Blades. It'd be faster TP than dual-weilding axe + joyeuse, at least, and Vorpal Blade should be able to do numbers similar, if not better, to Rampage's. It'd actually make WAR/SAM an interesting combo, since that 15% added TP per hit (20% with Rajas Ring) would really add up on Joyeuse, and while Meditates only recover 60 TP, 40 TP gap can quickly be closed.

[tdh]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I've often thought that DRK should have a Double Attack-ish ability at about Lv.65. DRKs have to load up on all the ACC they can get because if we sub THF and miss one swing, we postpone the Skillchain even longer! At Lv.66, we have 2 jobs we can form a Light Skillchain with. WAR, and RNG. Two jobs that build TP at amazing speeds at Lv.66.

Now I would like them to fix Last Resort, but if they don't I won't be hurt. But our own native Double Attack like ability would be very helpful. Allowing us to keep up with our TP partners, or even help us catch up after we've used an Absorb spell of some sort. Now if they made Last Resort a little more like Berserk and gave DRK a Double Attack THAT would make us over powered. But I don't think having a Double Attack ability would us too strong. Especially if you don't make the ability until Lv.65.

I kinda see how Souleater is a "TP Gimmick." But with a Scythe for example, that's only 4 or 5 swings. I've always used Souleater to keep Chains going, now I only see DRKs use it for one big Skillchain ever 5 minutes and cancel it right away.

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

yeah, a fella on KI did the math and showed how statistically, war/drg + Ridill is really the best DD in um... the game (this is as far as level 75 speed kill parties are concerned). He didn't own a Ridill and his war wasn't even 70+ but his math was pretty much right on. Of course, he got flamed because nobody wanted to accept anything other than /nin but someone did give a good arguement (I have a feeling it was Luminaire/ Uroburos): losing shadows hurts you the most.

And so we come full circle with why 2handers don't function so well. When a war or a thf subs nin, they gain an advantage in their DD potential. Whether or not another sub would be more useful is irrelevant, the fact is they get something out of it. Meanwhile, a drk, drg, or sam only gets survivability -- nothing to up damage.

[Intensity]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

My point is that WAR/NIN is statistically better over all. The next PT I am in probably tonight depending on invites I will get a paser done. LOL But seriously, a War/Nin in a DD setup can do a lot more damage. Also a NIN in a DD setup gearwise will be very close to that. That's why I am saying what I am saying. Yes 2handed weapons have higher damage and make more TP per swing. But add in the fact that dual-wielding gets enhanced to lower that delay, you are hitting more, thus making more damage, which in turn means more TP. Which makes for spamming WS.

The only job that gets a significant reduction in the delay of their weapons from the DW trait is NIN. I think the delay reduction anyone /NIN gets at most is 10% or 15%. That reduction is negligible in adding TP over time when compared to the 4-5% more per hit anyone wielding a 2-handed weapon would get.

I admit though, with the right set of weapons, WAR/NIN's get some crazy stat bonuses. I think it'd be cool for SE to come out with a set of all the 2 handed weapons that have, say +Haste 15% or something like that.