Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I've always respected your posts, Langolier but... are you even reading what I'm saying? I've been saying since page 1 that Dark Knight needs more. I think LR sucks, I think SE is too dangerous, and I think 2-handed jobs in general are SOL because they can't abuse a Nin sub like war and rng (and of course, nins themselves, but that's not a sub...).

Adaman is tanking gear. I don't want a DRK to carry full tank gear. I want the idiot to take off his damn Sniper Rings when he gets hate. 2 extra rings, I'd bring a couple extra pieces but I won't get irritated at people for not. Equip changes are hardly ever full-body swaps. A Drk's casting set won't macro everything off. 5 pieces in the macro line with the spell tops. So we're looking at a full set of TP gear (12 pieces), a full set of WS gear(4-12 pieces, depending on level, job, and player commitment), a casting set(5), and a tank set(2-4). So on average: 28 pieces of gear excluding weapon/ammo.

Now Warrior:
no casting gear, obviously.
TP gear(the same 12 as drk), WS gear (same 4-12 pieces).
But then the warriors who actually tank will be toting:
Defense set(4-8 pieces), enmity(shares a lot with our AF, so usually about 2-4 extra pieces), and maybe even haste(for war/nin tanking end game. I'm not going to get into this since I lack the money/experience in this department).
So we're looking at on average, very slightly above Drk. If you've seen gung-ho war/nin tanks like Nny, the amount of gear they have/use is mind boggling. Take a look in the paladin forums at some of the older God/HNM tanking threads. They have all sorts of rings, helms, bodies, anything, really. Even staff or sword/shield and they use it all depending on what they're fighting. Gear specifically for one NM or another. That's sick. With that in mind, what's a little more gear for Drk?

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

The point I was making earlier wasn't that drks should focus their exp careers on being a viable tank. It was a small part of me trying to point out how wars advantages over drk are few until you toss on a nin sub. At any rate some of my opinions have changed having read some of the stuff on the thread. I just don't believe that drk has the def of a rng. War can't possibly have that much of a defensive advatange over drk if you have access to some of the same high def gear (Adaman or no Adaman. Adaman doesn't automatically make you survive a supernova just because you have it) and I'm going to go and find out for myself if that's true or not.

If you really want to know this, Nanatsu, take Maat fight for example.

A WAR goes in, fully buffed, and can win in 2 seconds. My friend did it on his first try, not knowing worth a damn what was going to happen (In fact, he wasn't even properly equipped nor buffed)

A DRK goes in, fully buffed and ... there's no guarantee. One of many things can happen, but I can attest that our best WS and at full buff will never defeat Maat in 2 seconds. Then, when Maat hits us, he hits hard. Ridiculously hard. I can't hit Maat as hard on him but he can do that to me. If you think about it for a second, shouldn't the trade off of defense for offense capabilities be present here? But no, DRK Maat has PLD like defense and DRK/WAR like power.

But, I'm just upset with having to fight Maat 5 times at 70 while 3 of my WAR friends won in 2 seconds, each one of them on their first try (One of them winning at level 67). So this might be a bad example ...

Going back to discussion on defense. Take a 75 WAR without a subjob (can we still abuse that glitch?) and a 75 DRK without a subjob. Make them both try to tank Bune. Let's see how that fares ... if you really want a good test.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

DRG Maat is a joke. Does that mean DRG is teh bestest melee!?!?!

Similarly I don't see the defensive advantage WAR is supposed to have over DRK without /nin. The example you give isn't making a point at all since at first blush both jobs subless would have very similar defensive stats. Illustrating the uses of Defender? Congratulations, DRK has that ability on hand with their most offensively potent subjob. Are you pointing out the hidden passive trait WAR has, "> DRK"? Don't go off the deep end.

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I've always respected your posts, Langolier but... are you even reading what I'm saying? I've been saying since page 1 that Dark Knight needs more. I think LR sucks, I think SE is too dangerous, and I think 2-handed jobs in general are SOL because they can't abuse a Nin sub like war and rng (and of course, nins themselves, but that's not a sub...).

Thank you. I wasn't attacking you though. I'm questioning your reasoning. So DRK can equip a few pieces of decent DEF gear... so what? It's still worse than the gear WAR gets and they have less HP and unless they are subbing /war, /pld, or /nin they have no JA's to take advantage of that defense. Defender will be alot better if you already have a full set of Adaman on. Defender doesn't do much for my DRK on things that are already hitting way too hard. It's just not worthwhile.

Now another question... that I've brought up before: is our concept of the Dark Knight vs the Warrior even accurate? I mean in the actual game WAR clearly has better offensive and defensive abilities than DRK. DRK has 'tactical' abilities. None of their abilities or spells are the type you just want to throw on for kicks. They are all very situational. DRK might not have ever been designed to outdamage WAR (at least not most of the time). Perhaps it's more of a tactical job, a situational powerhouse when the conditions are right.

That's why I'd like to see DRK get more debuffing abilities. Give us the classic Meltdown spell and let it stack with Dia and Acid bolts. Give us an ability/spell to Absorb a buff from the mob or transfer and enfeeble from us to the mob. That would sure give Poison pots, paralyze potions, and other such items a uniquely DRK-ish use. I would be more than happy to slow my TP-gain and DoT a little bit more if it meant I could enhance my fellow melee buddies even more via' weakening the mob defensively/offensively. Perhaps an "Absorb-Haste" spell that slows the mob (stacks with slow and Bard slow, whatever) and gives us a 5-10% haste for about a minute.

DRK's should be required to utalize their magic in order to reach their full potential. They should do this via' weakening the mob so they themselves hit harder and more accurately, but also so that their comrades do the same. You will never want to over-cast, but casting should be about on par with meleeing for a DRK, I think. As it stands though casting just gets in the way and hurts our perfomrance in combat.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

DRG Maat is a joke. Does that mean DRG is teh bestest melee!?!?!

Similarly I don't see the defensive advantage WAR is supposed to have over DRK without /nin. The example you give isn't making a point at all since at first blush both jobs subless would have very similar defensive stats. Illustrating the uses of Defender? Congratulations, DRK has that ability on hand with their most offensively potent subjob. Are you pointing out the hidden passive trait WAR has, "> DRK"? Don't go off the deep end.

DRG is actually a very good melee, in the hands of competent players. But I digress. I was merely pointing out that a Warrior's potential can exceed those of a Dark Knight in one potent instance. That was my purpose, although, as I've already said, it may have been a bad example.

And that is your mentality, which Lmnop was talking about earlier, how 99% of all warriors think they need /nin to tank. You, sir, is one of those raving loonies that believe that to be the case, just with that line (I bolded for convenience)

However, if you would like to know, in my experience, even a WAR/WHM can tank better than a DRK/WAR. You place stock in "defender" when you might not even know how it works (Trust me, it doesn't, unless you're a 75 DRK that can test this yourself, you'll just have to go with the words of the DRK community here)

Even PLDs can't tank as well as a WAR if you stripped all main jobs of their ability to subjob. NINs won't even come close ... they're horrible at tanking, much more so than a PLD.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Well, being a DRG, I'm flattered and disappointed you missed the irony.

I'm not getting your argument at all. When DRK's defensive abilities were put on the spot in comparison no one ever mentioned or even vaguely implied that the argument had anything at all to do with tanking. The issue was DRK's ability to mitigate damage taken which is not tanking, since tanking has to do with holding hate, keeping it and all that jazz which is totally irrelevant to this discussion. The fact that Ninja or Paladin are worse tanks subless than warrior does not change anything. In terms of sheer damage mitigation WAR sucks. NIN and PLD are better for that regardless of what subjob they're using.
DRK has stat and gear development so similar to WAR that it comes logically that fundamentally they have the same basic ability to take hits. Unless I missed something, you've never definitively said what exactly puts such a substantial gap between a subless war and a subless drk. In fact, all you've said is that the small difference in VIT and DEF between either job on paper is trivial. So what is your point?

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I'm not getting your argument at all. When DRK's defensive abilities were put on the spot in comparison no one ever mentioned or even vaguely implied that the argument had anything at all to do with tanking. The issue was DRK's ability to mitigate damage taken which is not tanking, since tanking has to do with holding hate, keeping it and all that jazz which is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

First of all, you have no clue on what tanking is. Yes, you're right, tanking is about maintaining hate (or enmity if you prefer) Yet, maintaining hate entails more than just casting Flash or using Provoke.

I use tanking as a general term, because in reality, it encompasses much more than just using Flash or Provoke ... any competant tank will agree with this.

The fact that Ninja or Paladin are worse tanks subless than warrior does not change anything. In terms of sheer damage mitigation WAR sucks. NIN and PLD are better for that regardless of what subjob they're using.

Tanking, again, encompasses a lot more than just one part of the sum. You're picking out parts here for your convenience, to shore up some kind of argument (of which I don't understand why, since you're a DRG and this discussion has little to do with your class) A Ninja better than a WAR? How does this ninja hold hate without provoke? Last I heard, SE's nerfing utsusemi made it even that much more difficult for a ninja to hold hate without provoke ...

DRK has stat and gear development so similar to WAR that it comes logically that fundamentally they have the same basic ability to take hits. Unless I missed something, you've never definitively said what exactly puts such a substantial gap between a subless war and a subless drk.

See below for my response, since I need to address this next statement:

In fact, all you've said is that the small difference in VIT and DEF between either job on paper is trivial. So what is your point?

Where did I say the difference was trivial? Go scroll up and cite an example. Otherwise, stop inserting anonymous random sound bites in an otherwise leaky argument you're trying to build here.

I already gave an example of how a WAR friend survived and mitigated damage a lot better than I did, so you should go back and jog your memory to that point earlier in this thread.

I've seen so much nonsensical ramblings in this thread from people who don't play the DRK job class putting in their "2 cents" for no reason other than to inflate post counts or to amuse themselves or incite or illicit responses from which they wish to create an entertainment for themselves with. I see no purpose beyond this.

As for my own experiences, I've learned a lot from it and have thus seen many things that need to be addressed in this game. Play balance is a tricky subject, but by no means is it something that is self-correcting. A flaw in the game balance, when left alone, is open to player abuse which then sends out waves of reprecussions that can affect many other areas of game play.

I came in this thread to address several glaring errors as well as dispel a lot of urban myths surrounding this job class. I do appreciate the input of other DRKs as well as those of other job classes in this discussion. I really do love my job class or otherwise I would not even give a few seconds to this thread or any other thread in the DRK forum. I am also enjoying mage class jobs and have fallen in love with the RDM class. I'm sure that I will, as my mage jobs progress in level, be able to view my own job class at a different perspective to build upon my knowledge. However, there's only so much a player can do and this is where I believe SE should step in and provide some support to this otherwise neglected facet of the game.

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

NIN doesn't need war sub to tank. NIN/BLM spam.

I like the irony of a DRG against a DRK buff. I never bitched about a DRG buff (infact I agreed). I also like the RDM's or BRDs who are against DRK buff as if any buff has any effect on them (nevermind a buff is good for everyone ).

War gets defense bonus and defender (not to mention PLD type armor) to help remove damage taken. DRK has to sub WAR to get defender or defense bonus thus removing our chance of adding shadows to the mix. War is the only DD job that can do both damage and tank, obviously there is something broken about that since they excel at both over every other melee DD. No DD, mage or not, has very good def. There was a reason for that, same reason why WHM has higher def than BLM - it's pretty much a tradeoff, except for WAR which gets both.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

WAR gets both but can only do both at the same time if the party has duo WAR/NIN tanks or WAR/NIN at endgame, though. If those conditions aren't met, WAR is great for taking hits straight up, but not as good as PLD. I do agree that when WAR can do both at the same time it causes some balance issues though. But like the others said, NIN is equally guilty of this.

Also, I believe most DDs in the game get average Defense, not low. Defender aside, if a DRK was subless he'd have what...10 defense less than from that Defense Bonus trait? DRG can't wear heavy plate armor, but some harnesses are pretty decent defense-wise. The main difference is that DRK and DRG don't have access to shields (DRK has shields but 0 shield kill to go with them,) which are a major factor in damage mitigation. However, DRK get Drain and Apir, and DRGs get Healing Breath. Plus, I'm sure even a DRK could overkill his Defense with Defender and any defense food appropriate for his level. Of course, over extended periods of time he'd still take way more damage than a PLD or WAR because of a lack of shielding ability. SAM also has similar armor selection to WAR, and post-AF they can use rice balls that'll give them +40 Defense and +40 Attack at the same time. Roshi Jinpachi can double that at 71. I believe they also have B parrying. THF defense is fairly underwhelming but their Evasion is overwhelming. I think the only melee DD that can't do anything about being torn to shreds (other than Shadowbind > run away) when taking hits and they have no Utsusemi to back them up is RNG. Of course, when you're caught off-guard with DD armor, Sniper's Rings, Berserk up and no Defense food, you're gonna get hit really hard.

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Kinda off topic and on topic at the same time but...

http://groups.msn.com/BobbyJosh/tank...agetorzak.msnw

I don't use snipers on DRK because I don't like getting slept by level 5 mobs, then having them hit me for like 50 damage. So apparently defense bonus trait doesn't matter, so why does anyone need attack bonus if it's pretty much the same thing on the opposite side. I feel defense bonus is getting vastily underrated in this topic.

As for RNG, that's only now. Before it didn't matter if they got hate or not, they could just keep spamming away. But if you're going to apply the "if they don't have any shadows" to RNG you might as well apply that to every DD who uses shadows.

SAM have A- Parrying and B+ EVA, and Third Eye to save them at least one hit. THF of course are made to evade. MNK can counter and have focus to help evade, have high HP and VIT so can tank until the mob dies. DRG have jumps to remove hate. And WAR can tank regardless. Rng has 6 shadows he can use to give the tank enough time to pull back hate. Besides BLM, I think DRK is the only DD that has to rely on a subjob to remove hate or have to hold themselves back greatly to keep from killing themselves. Everything from our best JA to most our equip all points at lower defense, lower evasion, or taking away HP. Maybe SE intended DRK to be masters of Suicide?

[Lmnop]

I didn't want it to come to this but...

Get your head out of your ass before you post, Aeni.





I'll post on this later when I'm less irritated.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

I said Ninja and Paladin mitigated damage better than Warrior, regardless of their subless hate holding capabilities. When I say mitigate, I mean to molify, to take the sting out of, to lessen negative impact, as is the typical standard english definition of the word "mitigate", which can be found here: http://m-w.com/dictionary/mitigate. I say this in the hope you'll re-read my argument and try to understand that mitigating damage and holding hate are two different things. That warrior holds hate with provoke in a superior manner I'm not contesting, but it is not pertinent to bring up tanking issues in a discussion of damage mitigation. Subsequently it's the only issue with Dark knight, as it is common opinion that they are paper dolls.
Here's where you say the difference is trivial:

Also, higher VIT means nothing ... when you don't have the defense boost to hit the ceiling on the defense curve ... that's like, Stats 101 ...

That said, fuck you. You're an idiot. Learn how to read for the love of god, you melodramatic shit-faced emo dark knight bitch. You're pulling a fucking DRG here. I mean truly, I didn't know the universe could accommodate this much irony.

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

What the hell does it matter if WAR can "Mitigate damage" or hold hate better than PLD and NIN?

The issue is DRK vs WAR, not WAR vs other tanks.

The fact is they hold hate just as well if not better than DRK/WAR or DRK/anything, but they also mitigate damage better simply because before selecting a subjob they have excellent abilities and traits for DD. So they can remain a DD and then pick up a defensive sub and great both at the same time. DRK cannot. Theoretically this might make some sense because DRK is supposedly meant to be "locked" in the DD spectrum of things. Only by adding NIN SE inadvertently threw the balance out of line. Now WAR can boost it's "damage mitigation" to high enough levels that they can let loose and DRK can't. So DRK becomes a less versatile and less-powerful job.


What the hell is the tangent we are on here? Exactly what the hell are you people arguing about?

So what if DRK has slightly higher VIT... it doesn't matter. What matters is that WAR has Berserk, Defender, and Double Attack all on it's main so it can choose anything it wants to enhance those where as DRK has to choose from the lot just to be effective because the abilities native to it are useless and weak.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Yeah, that's true Langolier. I just wanted to bring Nanatsu's argument into relief since I really don't think Aeni addressed it properly...

The point I was making earlier wasn't that drks should focus their exp careers on being a viable tank. It was a small part of me trying to point out how wars advantages over drk are few until you toss on a nin sub. At any rate some of my opinions have changed having read some of the stuff on the thread. I just don't believe that drk has the def of a rng. War can't possibly have that much of a defensive advatange over drk if you have access to some of the same high def gear (Adaman or no Adaman. Adaman doesn't automatically make you survive a supernova just because you have it) and I'm going to go and find out for myself if that's true or not.

I'm not against a DRK buff either, I just think complaints need to be made in moderation.

[Langolier]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Yeah, that quote isn't proving anything. The fact is WAR does have access to a NIN sub.

WAR would have no real survival advantage over DRK if DRK could use NIN. However DRK can't use NIN because DRK does not have enough firepower on it's main to contribute to a party without /WAR or /THF.

I'm not sure what said poster is trying prove either. Am I supposed to switch into a full set of Darksteel anytime I steal hate and hope that the measely extra 30-40 defense is enough to save me?

To be honest I think WAR's HP advantage both naturally and through alot of really good +HP (and +DEF) gear does indeed give them a survival advantage that I don't have.