Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

No, I think you're missing the problem Armando.

I hated drk/thf to close my SC. I insisted on a THF if one could be found and if not, I'd suggest the DRK sub WAR and I'd close with wheeling thrust. Their TP growth with /THF is that useless.
Aeni and Smash already explained it very well. In the ~55 seconds a DRK/THF takes to gain TP (optimistically, its gonna be more because you're going to miss), straight damage is gonna take that mob down to where the SC and MB is overkill unless its high, high IT. What are you going to do, SC every two fights? It's frustrating as hell to watch your TP hit 200 because of unworkable SC timing. That shit just doesn't happen with a THF... they're ready to go after 45 seconds on -average-.

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

blood weapon as a 15 minute or even a 10 minute wouldn't be overpowered at all... that is, if S-E didn't break the game by adding kraken club. Seriously, what were they thinking? double attack trait only kicks in 10% of the time, additional effects on weapons only trigger some 5-15% of the time. What made them decide this chance to mult-attack should be any different? No, they went and made a weapon that hits 4 times on average. Ridill isn't much better. The only balanced multi-attackers are the 2-handed ones.

For DRKs, being able to freely use souleater would enhance their tp a bit, as it ups acc. But on it's timer, that's not reliable enough. To me, the problem isn't that drk/thf is slow as molasses +1 at tp gain, it's that subbing anything else gets them killed.

2-handed weapons in general have the problem of being less exploitable (pairing of complimentary 1handed weapons) and don't even have as good of stat boosts as 1 handers, as detailed before.

and for the record, no. War/nin does not get uber tp gain. Drg/war outpace me -every- time. And yea, that's mobs that check IT low evasion.

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

No, I think you're missing the problem Armando.

I hated drk/thf to close my SC. I insisted on a THF if one could be found and if not, I'd suggest the DRK sub WAR and I'd close with wheeling thrust. Their TP growth with /THF is that useless.
Aeni and Smash already explained it very well. In the ~55 seconds a DRK/THF takes to gain TP (optimistically, its gonna be more because you're going to miss), straight damage is gonna take that mob down to where the SC and MB is overkill unless its high, high IT. What are you going to do, SC every two fights? It's frustrating as hell to watch your TP hit 200 because of unworkable SC timing. That shit just doesn't happen with a THF... they're ready to go after 45 seconds on -average-.

Hence my "How many DRKs get to sub /WAR?" comment. From the looks of it most don't get to, which is a real blow to their TP, and while they won't compete with THFs or DRG/WARs, I'm sure they'd do much better with Double Attack thrown into the mix.

For DRKs, being able to freely use souleater would enhance their tp a bit, as it ups acc. But on it's timer, that's not reliable enough. To me, the problem isn't that drk/thf is slow as molasses +1 at tp gain, it's that subbing anything else gets them killed.

Agreed. That's why I said the problem is that DRKs aren't (guess I should've used the word "can't") using their full potential. DRK/WAR using Souleater every time it's up would undoubtedly be great, but it'd also get them killed for sure.

Has anyone tried DRK/DRG? I'm really curious now, since it gives better TP and Accuracy, and a hate-shedding ability.

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

DRK/DRG I hear is good too, of course I hear war/drg is is even better since they can wear barone. >->

I don't think there is any DRK that likes subbing or leveling THF. 59-65 levels subbing war; It just seems so natural and fun.

[Macht]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Ok, skimmed threw the pages. The most common thing I see players commenting is solely just on the DRKs weapon ability, they seem to ignore completly the fact that DRKs are also Magic Users with the common theme to their magic being something to the effect of a vampire.

Drain - Consume the opponents HP
Absorb - Consume the opponents MP
Absorb STR - Consume the opponents STR
Absorb DEX - Consume the opponents DEX
.... etc...

Hell even the DRKs gear and newer gear released tries to push that same theme. So all I can say is ever consider that your are taking the Focus on the DRKs place in the wrong context??

[Smasholays]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

That "new gear" is insanely rare/expensive, and I also like how SE made DRK JSE the only JSE with a negative effect, and besides BRD probably the hardest to get.

The only piece I could likely ever find to buy was black cuisses. I'm sorry, but if the gear that is supposed to make us what we are supposed to be are at level 70+ then what the hell are we supposed to be from 1 - 69? What are you insinuating DRK's place is? An enfeebler? Hell, I don't even get blind.

DRK doesn't have any magic+ job abilities/traits, they have ATT+ abilities/traits. I think DRK is what it's supposed to be already.

Edit: and if they just made more IT mobs at 75, there would be so many less problems. But that still doesn't help DRK on HNMs/Dynamis/etc.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

The more I think about it, the more that idea rocks. TP from spell casting, yo.

[Aeni]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Ok, skimmed threw the pages. The most common thing I see players commenting is solely just on the DRKs weapon ability, they seem to ignore completly the fact that DRKs are also Magic Users with the common theme to their magic being something to the effect of a vampire.

Drain - Consume the opponents HP
Absorb - Consume the opponents MP
Absorb STR - Consume the opponents STR
Absorb DEX - Consume the opponents DEX
.... etc...

Hell even the DRKs gear and newer gear released tries to push that same theme. So all I can say is ever consider that your are taking the Focus on the DRKs place in the wrong context??

Macht, you'd think if SE thought along the same lines as you did, then they would explain to the community on why *they* gave us the use of only tier 2 spells when they give RDMs, who're about one whole grade lower in elemental skill, tier 3 spells. Can someone please explain the effing logic in that?

http://www.ausystem.org/~aushacho/gbox/ff/skill-e.html

If we're the melee version of our Black Mage brothers/sisters, then we should get Tier 3 spells and Tier 1 & 2 -ga spells. This should counter our slow TP gain. They should also add some +mag acc, +mag atk and +refresh stats on some of our best equipment sets or at least on the AF if they're serious.

Because of the lack of "polish" on the capabilities on DRK, then what you're trying to say is totally foolish to many DRK players who've tried every possible way to tap that potential. Ask any DRK players who've tried to push it to the limit and they'll tell you spells are pointless. I think even Meo (Midgardsormr) has already addressed this issue (She has all 5 225+ WSs, has capped Enf and Elem on DRK as well)

Again, please don't mention spell casting in this thread again. Like I said, if we're suppose to do that, how do you propose that you do this with 50+ mp spells on a 300 (On a hume, which is the average of what a Tarutaru might have and what an Elvaan/Galkan would have) mp pool? Abs and the other spell sets are given, but remember, they make minute differences at the upper levels (I think Abs benefits start to wane in the 70s, even on T mobs at 75)





BTW, DRK/DRG works well, but is only situational (On mobs that will succomb to the Wyvern Killer passive trait)

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

The more I think about it, the more that idea rocks. TP from spell casting, yo.

I thought of it first!!! >.>;
Though I think your guys' extension of the idea is what would actually make it fair and wonderful -- Would have some interesting HNM effects, btw.

To what Aeni was saying:
I agree that Drk doesn't get enough "polish" on their magic abilities. Some equip with dark magic skill+, enmity-, and -unless they bring in the magic-tp idea- fast cast.

About Dark Knight enfeebles: of course it's not your duty to blind. And no one expects you to sub rdm and land gravity, slow, paralyze. It was designed so that a party with a rdm + drk could lay down so much pain on the mob that the other DD could more than pick up the slack for the drk who spent that time casting. Unfortunately, they forgot about that whole time = tp thing... I don't know if any of that made sense -- basically, to make up for their lower DoT, they bring incredibly unique enfeebles to the table. But as you stated, they loose their oomf in the higher levels and they have too much hate in the lower levels, so we find ourselves scratching our heads.

So I don't think Dark Knights would be happy to do this, but this is a point of interest for me:
On HNM, I'd like to see a mage-built Dark Knight. I know quite a few people take both, black mage and dark knight up to 75, so they'd have all the gear needed for this. Basically, as much dark magic skill and Int as you can get and just try to land ABS spells. Toss on a Dark Staff for Abs, and equip on a thunder staff for stun on -say- Kirin who likes to resist it. I doubt it'd be that useful unless you had a party make-up that could capitalize on the effects -- assuming they could even stick. Going back to the magic tp idea, you could opt to keep a weapon equipped and just TP up by being in a refresh cycle and trying to cripple, then swap to melee gear and actually abuse any enfeebles yourself. use Scythe and close Darkness, and MB an Abs on it even. Well, just a point of interest for me -- maybe some day i'll get to see.

I also wanna see a drk/nin main-tank Tiamat >.>;

Double Post Edited:
forgot to mention:

I don't like the idea of nerfing /nin only. It is my opinion (Omni disagrees with me on this) that Ninja mains are the ones who are abusing the game the most. The damage potential of a nin/war is just so outstanding.

However, I do like Armando's idea of nerfing multi-hit weapons in general. 1 tp/extra hit would be fair, IMO. You'd still get crazy DoT from using such weapons. Well, I dunno how it'd turn out. It may have people /tossing their Ridills. I really couldn't say.

Btw, Bahamut's Zaghnal = utter crap. Doesn't even have as good base damage as a Ridill. Keeping in mind what we've discussed in this thread about the abuse of off-handing, doesn't anyone see what's wrong with that?

[Armando]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

You know what'd be an interesting idea, too? Giving DRKs a new trait - Magic Accuracy Bonus. I mean, honestly, how can DRK put their spells to good use if they're just gonna get resisted? Few mages would sub DRK in EXP, and those that would do it for HNMs would also be limiting their spell selection.

I think the multi-hit weapon TP gain could be implemented easily if it only applies to the off-hand. A WAR getting faster TP with a Joyeuse isn't a problem...a WAR getting faster TP with a Joyeuse while still being able to spam Axe WS is kinda broken. The nerf would force those that want enhanced TP gain to mainhand the multi-hit weapon and use the WS that come with it. Just as well - Vorpal Blade should be comparable to the so-loved Rampage. And yeah...Ridill is probably THE weapon of brokenness in the game.

[Hustler_One]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Hence my "How many DRKs get to sub /WAR?" comment. From the looks of it most don't get to, which is a real blow to their TP, and while they won't compete with THFs or DRG/WARs, I'm sure they'd do much better with Double Attack thrown into the mix.


Agreed. That's why I said the problem is that DRKs aren't (guess I should've used the word "can't") using their full potential. DRK/WAR using Souleater every time it's up would undoubtedly be great, but it'd also get them killed for sure.

Has anyone tried DRK/DRG? I'm really curious now, since it gives better TP and Accuracy, and a hate-shedding ability.

Yeah 'can't' would have been a better use there. Because we are able to and I think a lot of DRKs would rather do it. When I level with my PLD friends, I get to use it, it's just slightly dangerous. But with a NIN tank or in a WAR WS/Weapon spam party, it's pretty much suicide. If we only had some way around the whole issue of basically Gimping ourselves for the sake of survival. -_-

[Lmnop]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

If we only had some way around the whole issue of basically Gimping ourselves for the sake of survival. -_-

...Which is the whole basis of what makes nin and war/nin so(too?) good. They're not gimping, just the opposite.

I've been posting a lot in this topic...

[Tipsy]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding












/think

[Hustler_One]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Honestly, our magical capabilities are laughable. Can have the best MAtk+ and INT+ gear equiped. But they are Tier 2 spells [LOL] Shouldn't expect much from them. The spells that are worth anything are Drain/Aspir/Stun/Absorb. Only the first two matter attack wise. The tier 2 stuff is a joke to exp mobs and nms.

[Karinya]

Re: Two-Handed Weapons and Dual Wielding

Yeah 'can't' would have been a better use there. Because we are able to and I think a lot of DRKs would rather do it. When I level with my PLD friends, I get to use it, it's just slightly dangerous. But with a NIN tank or in a WAR WS/Weapon spam party, it's pretty much suicide. If we only had some way around the whole issue of basically Gimping ourselves for the sake of survival. -_-

That's why I suggested -enmity two pages ago. (Although I suggested it for DD melees in general, because some others could really benefit from it too at high levels - monks come to mind.) DRK is invited more as a hate manipulator than as a damage dealer because tanks just can't hold hate by themselves off what a 70+ DD can do to VT mobs. Even on IT mobs, if your skillchain doesn't include SATA, the damage dealers get to tank from then to the end of the fight, pretty much.

Damage outstrips tank hate generation by so much it's ludicrous (and merits make it even worse - the double-edged nature of enmity merits applying to your other jobs means almost nobody takes them, so the DDs have +skill, STR and crit merits and the tanks have... survivability merits, with nothing to help hate). So unless you have a lot of that damage working for the tank via Trick Attack, you basically don't have a tank at all, and jobs that trade off vulnerability for power, DRK in particular, die.

More +enmity for tanks is up against a wall of diminishing returns - I have over +20 enmity already on my PLD, each new point adds less and less. -enmity for DDs is starting from 0, which means it still has huge untapped potential to keep their hate under control while they pump out 2000 damage per fight.

At first, I thought it was just a tank's-eye view that made it seem like enmity was the real problem, but this discussion of DRK/THF vs. DRK/WAR and why DRK have to limit their own potential makes it clear: enmity IS the real problem at the highest levels. If DRK didn't have to be hate manipulators, they could do a lot more damage, keep up in TP, and basically be the job they want to be.