Dark sub question

[truong]

Do you people know how to read? The only reason I posted in this thread cuz some of you are saying DRK/WAR is BETTER than DRK/THF damage wise, which is complete utter BS. DRK/THF's big burst of damage > DRK/WAR's 2nd rate DoT, which MNK/WAR, SAM/THF and WAR/NIN all blow away. It's funny how not one of you have given me a reason why a PT should take DRK/WAR over MNK, WAR or SAM.

And no shit, everyone and their grandma know to have all sub readily available. Point me to where I said you should go DRK/THF at all times post? Even in the other thread, I said to sub /WAR 74+, since everything's low VT.

So, what are we debating again? That yes, DRK/THF is the optimal combo 65+ that deals big consistent damage? That you should have WAR readily available to sub just in case you get invited into a pt with really bad job chemistry? OK then.

[Jei]

heh where did we talk about "That you should have WAR readily available to sub just in case you get invited into a pt with really bad job chemistry" ? All the points posted here were pretty clear to me that they are telling you to be "flexible" and ready for every PT set up. You help strengthen my point: you can't read.

[Balodoth]

I would say it strengthens the argument he can't do math. "Big burst of damage" vs. "2nd rate DoT"?

I'd also discuss his grammar, connotation, and capriciousness, but. . . well, a class can only move as fast as its slowest pupil, now can't it?

[fuz]

And no shit, everyone and their grandma know to have all sub readily available. Point me to where I said you should go DRK/THF at all times post?

No one said all times, but you said drk/thf only in 65-74, which most, if not all of us disagree with.

65+ in exp pt, sub THF. You can sub war, but then I'd have absolutely zero reason to choose you over MNK/WAR, WAR/NIN or SAM/THF.

Which is wrong, as stated in numerous other posts.

For all you DRK/WAR fanboys: Give me ONE good reason why PTs should invite DRK/WAR over WAR/NIN, MNK/WAR, SAM/THF 65-74? Go ahead and go DRK/WAR. Then sit in Jeuno LFG.

Gave plenty reasons, and still have more.

So, what are we debating again? That yes, DRK/THF is the optimal combo 65+ that deals big consistent damage? That you should have WAR readily available to sub just in case you get invited into a pt with really bad job chemistry? OK then.

Glad you changed your mind. Adaptability is how you wield true power--better make use of it.

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On another note, If you have the time to consistenly do 2 SC per fight, something is wrong. No matter what sub I use, /thf or /war, I've only had time for 1 SC. If there are 4 melees, then maybe you can have 2 SC per fight. As far as I know, when I sub /thf, I close lvl 3 light or dark, add a MB and the mob is dead or has just a few hundred HP left. Another cast and it's finished off. Blm uses so little MP it's funny.

When there is no thf or /thf to close the SC fighting IT+ mobs, the mob has about 10-30% HP left after the WS+SC, depending on the random WS damage. Still, it's not usually enough to warrant another SC. Fights normally take longer without a strong closer and a blm to MB here. Multi-ranger or monk PTs in KRT are an exception, as there is plenty of spare damage to go around; same for mass VT killing. So yah, /war works just fine, but I often find it a bit harder to pull a #5 and higher.

JP pts for my case rarely ask for war sub. I'd say 90% of the time we're off killing IT+ so that's an instant call for /thf. I did use /war sometimes with a sam/thf. If you think drk/thf DoT is bad, watch a sam/thf--you wonder if it's a 1hs sword they are using. >.> At least they can close for as much damage... if they have 200TP+. Face it, drk/thf is uniquely powerful for a job subbing thf when it's in an appropriate PT setup, even if you hate subbing it.

On a counterpoint, I've also used drk/thf when opening a SC. This is... well, bad to say the least. Sometimes I can't get enough TP to keep up with the closer--it's supposed to be the other way around. Can't get my higher double damage on the SC, and my DoT is too low to make up for the loss in damage. Like /war on IT+ mobs, it's harder to get consistent chain 5+ being used like this. At least I don't have trouble pulling hate like some other xxx/thf jobs.

Depending on PTs, my normal exp rate is 4-6k/hr. Exceptional is 7k+, which I have rarely encountered unfortunately, due to lack of mobs, or odd PTs setups, to people going AFK or D/C, etc.

[truong]

lol still no one gave a reason why choose DRK/WAR over SAM/THF, MNK/WAR and WAR/NIN. Please Fuz, please tell me why I should. Are you saying DRK/WAR's DoT is comparable to those 3 job combos? If so, I won't bother debating with a DRK fanboy.

Hey, Jei: why don't you provide some actual points, instead of making completely irrelevent posts like you're some sort of cheerleader on the sideline? Do you even have a LV 70+ DRK job?

Here, since you guys aren't doing a good job of actually proving your points, I'll do it for you.

Can I please ask in which situation, from 65-74, would you sub WAR?

With PLD tank and 1 other DD:
MNK: First of all, the chance of you PTing with a MNK is pretty slim at these level, since they do bone PTs. Even if you do happen to be in this pt set up, guess where you're most likely going anyway? Gustav or KRT. And guess what the pt will have you do? Sub /THF, end Light.

RNG: depending if the RNG subs war, or the PLD being good enough to let go of hate when it comes to SC, since RNG's using a shity WS to start light. But then, starting these level, RNGs do arrowburn pts in Darter/Skimmer right up til sky weapons. Yes, you can sub /WAR here as DRK, and spam guillo > side for fragmentation. That's actually a good idea, if it weren't for the fact that this PT can completely replace you with a WAR/NIN spamming rampage to end distortion. Rampage spam > guillospam anyday.

SAM: lol don't be stupid. SAM don't like pting with DRK, period. They wan't someone to keep up with TP, and DRK's not the job /WAR or not.

DRG: DRG's only use is to start light. You can end light. Guess where this is going? Yeah, you can sub /WAR and use a GS. But then you'd be an idiot.

WAR: aka, the most perfect job combo to compliment DRK/THF. There's no reason for you to ever sub war.

...which brings us to...

THF: aka, the shittiest DD a DRK can pair himself with. The only reason a PT with THF will invite a DRK, or vice versa, is if there's absolutely no other DD seeking, and they've waiting for 1+ hour. It's mandatory that you sub /WAR in this pt. Even worse, they'll ask you to voke at start. We already know this is nightmare. This is the ONLY time (and the least exp and fun you'll have) you should sub WAR over THF. Hence, "bad job chemistry".

With NIN as tank: pretty much the exact same as with PLD tank, except now even a RNG using arching arrow can turn the mob, which just makes your job easier. And pting with a THF actually works out alright

So what is that? 4 of the 6 DD would prefer you to sub /THF for optimal exp gain. The remaining two, SAM and THF, with the former wanting nothing to do with you, and the latter out of sheer desperation for exp? 4 out of 6, with 1 which rarely happens, and the other which guarantees average exp. And this is why I say DRK/THF only. For good exp and a smooth PT. And you people are saying "No, no! have war sub ready just in case you get invited to PT with SAM or THF". Which I completely agree.
The difference? I don't like wasting time, especially doing something as banal as exping, with jobs that have no chemistry, which leads to slow exp gain. Thus, for me (and a lot of people) I go DRK/THF only from 65-74. You guys can have your war sub available too (as do I), and go ahead and join these "situational PT". You're paying for the monthly fee.

So what is there to debate? I only need to ask two questions, and if you people can provide those two answers, I'll shut up.

Why should anyone invite DRK/WAR over WAR/NIN, MNK/WAR or SAM/THF? And in which situation, from 65-74 should I sub war over THF, other then when I'm in PT with THF? This, all assuming the mob is IT or IT+.

I won't bother responding to the cheerleaders in this thread. If you can answer those two question, I'll get back with ya.

[truong]

Originally posted by Balodoth
I would say it strengthens the argument he can't do math. "Big burst of damage" vs. "2nd rate DoT"?

I'd also discuss his grammar, connotation, and capriciousness, but. . . well, a class can only move as fast as its slowest pupil, now can't it?

lol this from a LV 32 DRG. And yes, DRK/THF's big, CONSISTENT, SC burst damage > DRK/WAR's inconsistent DoT, which MNK, WAR, SAM all embarrass DRK/WAR at.

[fuz]

We've already stated that if you're fighting VTs, there is no good reason to sub /thf. Drk/war's DoT output does in fact keep up just fine here. It's not the best in the game, but it's not far behind a monk either. Add souleater and the benefit of debuffs, and it's about the same. Parse it if you don't belive me.

You use drk/war if there are no other xxx/war or war/nin to fill a spot in a PT. That's when drk/war is wanted. There is no other job, melee or mage that can reliably stun, which is a great plus fighting gobs and weapons.

Other reason is if you're in a KRT PT with dual monks, you don't need to sub thf. You can sub thf if you want, but you can't end light a 2 person light SC with a monk. If you can't get the damage multiplier from a SC, then /thf will not do much damage. I've only been invited to spam guillotine, with the monks spamming ashuran. You can have a 3-man SC, but that's akward, and the weaker WS are a waste of potential damage from ashuran.

Actually, anytime you can't close a lvl 3 SC, you should probably sub /war. A lvl 2 SC just doesn't have the damage potential to offset the low damage melee hits.

If you have 2 rangers who are going sidewinder --> guillotine constantly, then you don't use /thf, especially if you have a bard and are going after processarines. They just die too fast for a drk/thf to build up TP in time for a fight.

...

Now for the conclusion, I didn't state that /war is better than /thf, even in the majority of PTs. In fact I stated the opposite. But you for some reason think I did. Also you say that /thf is better 100% of the time which it is not.

The only pathetic excuse you have is saying I'm a fanboi, and suddenly that justifies your logic? Looks like someone's so blinded by anger he can't see what really going on.

[Shiro_Hayate]

Because none of those jobs you mentioned have Absorb-Dex which helps the entire party out by making the mob hit less, saving MP and so on. Now shut up, you sound like some close-minded fool who's trying to piss people off for fun. Just reading you talk pisses me off, you accomplished what you wanted now get out.

[Langolier]

I'm not gonna debate... I have both subs, and when a party is forming I use my judgement and common sense to pick a sub.

Today I joined a party with PLD, THF, BLM, BLM, RDM... found out the THF didn't have Evisceration.

No problemo... we'll do Shark Bite ==> Cross Reaper for Distortion.

The mobs were VT and low IT.

Guess what?

Consistant chain 5's. Cross Reaper was doing about 600 damage, on average. The SC didn't do much, but when you have two BLM's dropping 1.5k Blizzaga III's, it don't matter. :p

Of-course this party was not standard, and I blame the PLD for inviting a THF to a PT with a DRK out of ignorance. No matter, sometimes you can make this work.

I must say, /war was a nice ego-boost... nothing like hitting an exp mob for 200+ damage each hit.

[MAK]

Actually DRK/WAR in exp PTs is fine, make sure you use a scythe. With NIN-RNG-DRK-BLM-BRD-WHM things die so fast you hardly have time to skill chain. Guillotine does a steady 800-100 damage normally if you add it with darkness you get even more. Double attack and berserk help a shit load. I hate subbing THF on anything but tu'lia gods because you lose so much attack. Nothing can beat a DRK/WAR with a scythe in DoT unless you're on bones with a mnk.

[Kosy]

www ... ignorance runs thick ...

Originally posted by truong
With PLD tank and 1 other DD:
MNK: First of all, the chance of you PTing with a MNK is pretty slim at these level, since they do bone PTs. Even if you do happen to be in this pt set up, guess where you're most likely going anyway? Gustav or KRT. And guess what the pt will have you do? Sub /THF, end Light.

End light how? You ARE NOT able to form a 2-person light with MNK as a DRK.

http://www.adennak.com/renkei10.jpg

You tell me how that is possible. C'mon, you leveled (supposedly) DRK in your 70s with MNKs and you didn't know this? Waiting around while PLD is busy casting and keeping hate and trying to gain TP for 3 way is also a waste of time. No PT will have DRK if there's already 2x MNK. Better to staff with 2x BLM instead for the MBs ... or SMNs or any other mage that can MB ...

RNG: depending if the RNG subs war, or the PLD being good enough to let go of hate when it comes to SC, since RNG's using a shity WS to start light. But then, starting these level, RNGs do arrowburn pts in Darter/Skimmer right up til sky weapons. Yes, you can sub /WAR here as DRK, and spam guillo > side for fragmentation. That's actually a good idea, if it weren't for the fact that this PT can completely replace you with a WAR/NIN spamming rampage to end distortion. Rampage spam > guillospam anyday.

There's two types of PLDs. One that can't hold hate worth a dime and the other who has an iron grip hold on hate. I partied exclusively with the latter as of late and I have no fear of pulling hate even on a 800 spin + 1000 light on a 3 way. Why? Because as DRK/THF, I am barely on the hate list with my piddling per-hit damage, LMAO. If I do steal hate, that means monster is still alive for some reason and I MB with Stun and it's usually dead soon after or I can just run behind the PLD on the occassional severe (big dmg) Lights for Cover. Even with RNG in PT, I don't SATA behind PLD. It's the other way around. RNG is behind PLD, in case he manages to pull hate. Makes things less complicated and I haven't died yet ;3 Oh yeah and ...

SAM: lol don't be stupid. SAM don't like pting with DRK, period. They wan't someone to keep up with TP, and DRK's not the job /WAR or not.

I partied with RNG and SAM in my PT today. SAM or anyone don't give a **** because after LFG for hours, you wouldn't either. Who has the luxury of being "picky?" I remember this NIN who refused to p/u any melees for the two spots that weren't RNGs. Guess what? After half an hour of waiting, the BRDs disbanded and joined up PTs w/o RNGs. You're an idiot if you think you know anything about what other job classes think.

DRG: DRG's only use is to start light. You can end light. Guess where this is going? Yeah, you can sub /WAR and use a GS. But then you'd be an idiot.

Sure, if you can find a DRG to PT with. I've NEVER PT'd with a DRG once for the past 150K worth of EXP. That's because none are seeking when I look. So what's your point?

WAR: aka, the most perfect job combo to compliment DRK/THF. There's no reason for you to ever sub war.

I agree. But it's common sense. It's like why are you subbing THF if there's already a main THF in PT? Think about it ...

...which brings us to...

THF: aka, the shittiest DD a DRK can pair himself with. The only reason a PT with THF will invite a DRK, or vice versa, is if there's absolutely no other DD seeking, and they've waiting for 1+ hour. It's mandatory that you sub /WAR in this pt. Even worse, they'll ask you to voke at start. We already know this is nightmare. This is the ONLY time (and the least exp and fun you'll have) you should sub WAR over THF. Hence, "bad job chemistry".

I disagree. I've PT'd with a THF/NIN as DRK/WAR. Best exp gain on massive chaining with low ITs. I think we pulled almost 5.5k an hour. You must be a retard to make such a base statement as this ... plus, who waits 1+ hour to fill a slot? No one. 10 min tops. Guess you haven't PT'd in a while (Did you quit the game and just basing this off from past experience?)

With NIN as tank: pretty much the exact same as with PLD tank, except now even a RNG using arching arrow can turn the mob, which just makes your job easier. And pting with a THF actually works out alright

I thought that too when I PT'd with this JP NIN. He was apparently the 1% of all NINs that can do one thing: Keep hate better than 80% of the PLDs out there. At least most of the time, in theory, this works out.

Why should anyone invite DRK/WAR over WAR/NIN, MNK/WAR or SAM/THF? And in which situation, from 65-74 should I sub war over THF, other then when I'm in PT with THF? This, all assuming the mob is IT or IT+.

I won't bother responding to the cheerleaders in this thread. If you can answer those two question, I'll get back with ya.

Majority of players are not obsessed with calculating exp return. Why? Think about it. You already spend a good hour or so putting a PT together with what there is and then finding a camp site that doesn't have 5 PTs in an area that only can support 2 PTs (according to your thinking of optimal) Including travel time and what have you, especially after greeting LS members and friends and checking your AH and if you craft ETC. ... you spent probably 2 to 3 hours online already. You have maybe at most 5 to 6 hours to play total. Guess what? You will exp regardless. No matter what. It's called exp grind. Neither you, nor I nor anyone enjoys this. But, reality check and calls and says, tough **** That's the way it goes. C'est la vie. Those who can stick to it and grind it out, they are now 75 and reaping the rewards (or tears) of the end game. The rest end up leveling new jobs or just quitting altogether or just hopping on to socialize.

Yes, I am speaking from experience of PT'ing with both JP and EN players (EU as well) since I live in between JP time zones and NA time zones. My playtime is usually at the tailend of NA and beginning of JP evenings.

[truong]

lol Kosy, notice how I've been ignoring your post? I don't bother debating with people like you online. You're the type that, even when proven wrong, you drag on and on, picking on little details til you bore the other person out with irrelevent bs.

Like I said earlier, your entire argument revolves around the assumption that you're in an absolute garbage pt, while I'm on the opposite end. I'm not bothering with an idiot whose entire point revolves around a bunch of skilless, desperate players who would take any pick up PT.

Hell, reading over this thread, I see intelligent people like Icemage (one of the two most informative people on these boards, along with Applepie) and Awntawn basically agreeing with me. I'm done, you can stop now, Kosy.

Edit: Don't know why Fuz and Kosy are rambling about how DRK and MNK can't make light lol. It's stated clearly in my post "WITH A PLD TANK:"

[fuz]

And what exactly makes ending a light SC possible with a pld tank? As if drk/thf tp gain wasn't slow enough, you want to add a pld to the SC order? Please, tell me just how you expect to make chains that net you the great exp that you talk about. We're pointing out the drk w/ monk section because it's highly flawed, which makes the rest of your 'info' questionable.

Anyone who puts up arguments to your explanation is somehow unintelligible, a fanboy, or whatever groundless personal insult you can make. Are we supposed to take word of someone who likes to make baseless statements because you're mad that there is actual resistance to your post? You talk about intelligent posts--well you're not exactly making a good statement about yourself. Everyone that agrees with you is put on a pedestal of the elite, anyone that goes against you is both idiotic and wrong... great.

[Icemage]

Who on earth bothers with 3-part skillchains past level 66 or so anyway? If you're doing Lv2 -> Lv3 SC in your parties at that level, you're probably doing something wrong. Even a regular Lv2 is enough to take down all XP-worthy enemies if you construct the party correctly.


Icemage

[Evilisgood]

Re: Dark sub question

First off I wanted to say hello. this is my first post after registering today. Anyway here we go.

I just recently started playing a DRK. Just recently popped 21. The higher I go the more I am considering what would make the ideal sub. I have spoken to alot of the members of my linkshell (they all laughed when I said I was playing DRK) they advised the best way to go would be warrior sub till about 30 or 40 then swap to thief. I have been looking around online at alot of different sites and I think they are correct.

At lower levels I get the benefits of higher damage and double attack with some provoke thrown in for flavor. With thief I get sneak attack an trick attack.

One question still bothers me though. When should I swap my sub to thief. After reading online quite a bit I get varied answers from most places. I am just trying to build a general idea as to what is the most common.

Feedback from anyone who has actually played a DRk beyond 37 would b great.

~Adios