Dark sub question

[Kilk]

Im planning on being a dark knight and i was wonder what would be the best for lvl 1-30 and at 30 is thf the best for it.

[Mitsurugi]

WAR is definitely the best sub until about lvl 60. You get Double Attack, Provoke, and the most damage, which is what a DRK is supposed to do.

After lvl 60, switch to THF, as most DRKs do to lvl 75. You get SATA (Sneak Attack + Trick Attack), which increases your damage output to create gobs of damage on your enemy.

This is the typical layout of a DRK's lifespan, although experimenting with other subs won't hurt anyone but your chance at getting in exp parties.

[fuz]

You use /war from 1-75, /thf mostly from 66-75 when you close a lvl 3 skillchain. /thf isn't really good anywhere else unless you have a nin tank that can't take your hate generation.

Other subs are for odd situations.

[truong]

Don't listen to Fuz.

1-65, sub war. Nothing's better. 65+ in exp pt, sub THF. You can sub war, but then I'd have absolutely zero reason to choose you over MNK/WAR, WAR/NIN or SAM/THF.

[fuz]

What did I say? You generally use /war from 1-66, /thf from 66-75 when closing a SC. If you don't close a SC, then you don't sub /thf. Below lvl 65, /thf is gimpy. At 65 with cross reaper, it's iffy.

65, you can try closing with cross reaper, but since it's so difficult to get a darkness SC started, often you end up subbing war unless you have a nin tank. You need either a 3-man SC, or get a pld or nin to open up--either scenario is time consuming and inconsistent in results. It's not until lvl 66 with spinning slash that you really make use of /thf since it's easier to get a 2-man SC going.

However, don't think you always end up closing a SC from 65-75 because there is not a 100% chance you will. In those cases, a /thf will not be able to extract the extra damage provided from the mirror SC damage, and consequently ends up dealing less damage and delaying the SC from the slow tp gain. Also, anytime you end up mass chaining VTs instead of going IT+, /war has the upper hand, even if closing a SC because your standard attacks are so much higher--unless again, you have a nin tank who can't take the hate generation.

My shorthand post is basically assuming you have knowlege of all this.

Bottom line is, have both subs ready from 1-75 as a drk because you will use them both in and out of exp PTs.

[Vinen]

Eventually the best sub for DRK falls back to Warrior with the proper gear.

[Macht]

Yeah, Fuz was correct in what he stated. DRK/THF in comparison to DRK/WAR the DRK/WAR is still more powerful. The only reason for DRK/THF is because once they get I think it was Spinning Slash they are able to SATA more damage on to the Tank for hate control then the THF can.

So basically the DRK/THF is only wanted if you want a more superior hate planted on a player such as a PLD or NIN who is able to tank the monster with no problem. This leaves a lot more room for mages and rangers to really go all out.

Otherwise if that situation can't be filled right the DRK is going to be better damage wise by going DRK/WAR. I've seen DRK/BLM work alright as well and even DRK/RDM, mostly what you choose to sub with dark has a reason and focus. It is not always damage based either.

A DRK/BLM has all the absorb spells and the elemental debuffs. They are crazy debuffers, even with a BLM present it still increases the debuffing potential. They won't max out their damage with a scythe that's for sure, but crippling a monster is a nice ability if you know how to use it right.

[Kosy]

Originally posted by truong
Don't listen to Fuz.

1-65, sub war. Nothing's better. 65+ in exp pt, sub THF. You can sub war, but then I'd have absolutely zero reason to choose you over MNK/WAR, WAR/NIN or SAM/THF.

Don't listen to truong. Unless you have a WAR/NIN to plant SATA Spin on in your PT (Not likely to happen) or are partied with a PLD that cannot hold hate very well at all (aka gimp) or a NIN/WAR as main tank, NOBODY will want to stand in front of DRK/THF for it. RNGs can't pull hate with Heavy Shot (to make mob turn) if you're behind an uber PLD like my friend is. A good PLD can hold hate against RNG with only one voke and Flash about 1/2 of the fight on Catoplebas. LMAO

/THF is very situational and only works well with a PLD that is willing to not build up an iron grip on hate (but very risky when BLM lands 1,400 MB) or with a NIN/WAR tank. Unless your RNG is willing to accept being a trick tank, I wouldn't even try it. Plus, as DRK/THF, you're competing against a main THF for invites if that's your only job combination.

Hence why I'm leveling NIN to 37 and have even considered leveling RDM to 37 as well for post 70 play. Working on making sure WAR and THF sub to 37 before I go and fight Maat. Only one dimensional DRKs will tell you to sub THF onry from 66 on. Best of the best DRKs will have tons of options available to them and make sure a lot of their weapons are capped.

Need to add that I was in a PT once with a SAM/THF when I went as DRK/THF. It worked okay since I will pull hate off of NIN/WAR tank and SAM/THF puts it back on for closing with Distortion. Some other odd combinations would be MNK/THF and a gil-toss RNG/WAR if you want to close a level 3. RNGs usually pul hate with slug shot/sidewinder with any tank, but since they can't use it for a 2-way light, they have to fall back on a WS that does between 50% to 75% less damage ...

[fuz]

Actualy most people prefer drk/thf over thf/xxx. If anyone's leveled multiple jobs up over lvl 66, you'll find that PTs with a thf tend to go a bit slower. So not only does drk do more damage per fight, they can also stun and provide a slight edge on arcania mobs. Thf gains tp faster, but oddly enough, I always have more trouble continuing exp chains with them. My guess is their melee output is lower, extending a fight.

I've never had a problem with a pld loosening hate so the backup tank can voke+WS for hate and I can SA+TA+WS right back onto the pld. As the pld sees my tp go up, he stops going all out. Nin, it's really not that hard, unless your SC partner is gimp. My favorite backup tank/trick partner is ranger/nin. They take virtually no damage, usually just 3 shadows is plenty time for me to get into position and fire off my WS. They do plenty damage (especially IT+) and have virtually no downtime if played well.

This is actually less risky for the blm MBing. With an all /war melee PT and a pld tank, they still have trouble pulling hate back from a blm so I end up hitting stun, weapon bash, voke, LR, maybe even souleater to get the mob off the blm. Pld will scramble to cover (someone) in the meantime. The problem here is that the WS+SC+MB damage from a /war pt isn't usually high enough to finish off the mob so the mob can still beat down on the blm. The issue is threefold, faster TP generation and inconsistent WS+SC damage hit the mob early, so it's still very much alive when the MB lands, and afterwards is still kicking. There's also no tricked damage so natually the mob ocasaionally runs down the blm. Suddenly everyone spams mp and skills to get it back (bad for exp chaining). Death is a much higher probability, so looking at the lesser of two evils, I'll sub /thf for a smoother fight that is often, even shorter.

So when there is a blm at lvl 66+, someone has to go /thf--normally that means you, the drk. If there is no blm or nin tank, feel free to sub war. Dual ranger or monk PTs don't always need tricked damage--sometimes all they want is for you to just need to keep up with TP, while the tank (if any) will get a real test of skill. :p VT mobs, guillotine starts going up to the same damage as spinning or cross, so no point in /thf since /war hits a lot (and I mean a LOT) harder in normal attacks.

Why not sub thf before 66 if you have a blm? Well, as I said before, it's hard to extract a lvl 3 SC with cross at lvl 65, and before lvl 65, your WS and/or lvl 2 SC don't do enough damage to offset the power of /war. Once you get spinning slash, you'll get a good tool to pin hate for those 1000-2000dmg MBs without hurting your own damage.

[truong]

For all you DRK/WAR fanboys: Give me ONE good reason why PTs should invite DRK/WAR over WAR/NIN, MNK/WAR, SAM/THF 65-74? Go ahead and go DRK/WAR. Then sit in Jeuno LFG.

Yes, DRK/THF is only invited to end SC. And what is DRK/WAR invited for? For damage, yes. But will I, or any intelligent PT makers out there, invite DRK/WAR over a MNK/WAR, WAR/NIN or SAM/THF of the same level. I thought so.

[Jei]

If you are not civilized enough to post constructively then I suggest you stick to Allakhazam, Truong.

I do agree that Drk/Thf are great SC closers but by not having other sub jobs you are limitting yourself to a certain PT set up. When I PT with Drk, 70% they are the closer. But are you willing to give up the other 30% possibilities?

Besides you can search any 70+ Drk comments and expect ALL of them to be able to sub both Thf AND war.

[fuz]

If you actually learned something from the posts here, you'd figure out that we're not advocating /war sub, we're saying that not every PT is ideal for drk/thf. For those other situations, drk/war often performs as well or better so you need both subs. The subjob isn't permanent, so why is there an argument at all?


You can read my huge friggin rant on drk/thf vs. drk/war here.
http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=53065

[Icemage]

DRK/WAR is often useful as a 1st provoke when there's a THF/x or x/THF already in the party, especially early on, since DRK has a good Distortion skillchain openes (Power Slash).

Generally speaking, DRK/THF tends out outperform DRK/WAR for overall damage, but there's no point in having 2 Sneak Attackers in a party if you have no way to turn the enemy ~ hence DRK/WAR. Having both THF and WAR available as subjobs is the best way to go, as each combination has its own role in a party.


Icemage

[Kosy]

fuz:
Actualy most people prefer drk/thf over thf/xxx. If anyone's leveled multiple jobs up over lvl 66, you'll find that PTs with a thf tend to go a bit slower. So not only does drk do more damage per fight, they can also stun and provide a slight edge on arcania mobs. Thf gains tp faster, but oddly enough, I always have more trouble continuing exp chains with them. My guess is their melee output is lower, extending a fight.

THFs are the only ones that can keep up with a RNG TP gain. Because of that, I think it's logical to do two SCs with both in PT rather than build up to one big one 50% in. So you have to kind of change around a bit with your workflow when the THF is in PT ...

fuz, I sub both /WAR and /THF. Lately, I've been asked to /THF a lot, but from time to time, esp with a JP PT, they ask me to /WAR, regardless if already have a THF or /THF or not. The JP PTs, I notice, have a consistent exp pull, even if it's slow by most 2x RNG PT standards. Overall, I've never had an issue with either subjobs. Okay, with that addressed ...

To Truong. You obviously are the one LFG for hours because you refuse to sub anything else and refuse to open up SCs. You can close DRK/THF IFF (<- If and Only If) you have the proper PT setup. I've been invited to PTs at late hours when there's no replacement for their RNG/NIN or what have you and that I seem an irregular fit if they have a THF or a SAM in PT. If there's already a THF, then you're going to have to sub WAR. You're the trick bish, not the other way around. With SAM in PT, you're not likely to use Spin once and if you're fighting mobs resistant to darkness, then more than likely you're not ending that chain either.

Bottom line is to have yourself ready so that 99% of all invites are readily accepted without compromising too much. You're only under the assumption when you're forming PTs, but if you ask the general server population, even that is out of the option (when you don't have a single tank or brd/rdm on seek, then you know you won't be able to form an acceptable PT to keep everyone happy)

[kuu]

THFs are the only ones that can keep up with a RNG TP gain. Because of that, I think it's logical to do two SCs with both in PT rather than build up to one big one 50% in. So you have to kind of change around a bit with your workflow when the THF is in PT ...

Not really, war/nin's can easily beat thfs, and mnk/war isn't far behind with good hit rates.

Heck a drg/war will beat all of the above, their lances give 16 tp, with jump every 1.5min, and high jump every 3 min.

If you want to sc with a ranger, it's usually the Sam/war or /thf. Can't beat Sam to TP spamage.

Thf/nin are there for, pull speed (flee), SATA, drops, and assassin. Assassin is very good for Paladins who have turn problems, and missing ranger sidewinders.

Drk/war's do give it you more TP, but TP isn't the end all, depending on PT set up.